velki Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Like who? Randyle? Please, randyle won one battle against a battle weary robert an indecisive skirmish. As for renly his skill leaves much to be desired.That's what I was thinking, yes, but, well, my point was that the quality of the leadership on Renly's side is overall quite poor. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Honestly, if there were no Twincest, none of the events would have played out in nearly the same way at all. LF's motivation for having Lysa poison Jon Arryn wasn't to get the Vale. Lysa was put up to it, but readily agreed to the poison because she was already extremely upset about the fostering. It's really unlikely that she would have come up with the idea to poison him on her own.What's crucial about the issue of fostering is that this was part of Stannis and Jon's "cleaning house," so to speak, just before outing the incest. Sending SR to Dragonstone was part of their plan to get their pieces into place as preparation for when twincest shit hit the fan. To twincest, no fostering.I have no doubt that LF would have stirred things anyway, but without incest nothing would have been the same.Have no fear, butterbumps! is here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 That's what I was thinking, yes, but, well, my point was that the quality of the leadership on Renly's side is overall quite poor. :)Ah, ok then I geuss we aggree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 But I dont think tywin would fight for a basterd joff if he knew stannis and the north and riverlands are fighting for his grandkids. He is not likely to keep fighting for a fake baratheon, even if he is cercei and jaimes....what? Ned'd still confront Cersei about Joff, he'd still be imprisoned, Robb'd still declare himself king, Ned'd still die and Stannis'd still refuse to let Robb be KitN, this once again starting tWot5K.Honestly, if there were no Twincest, none of the events would have played out in nearly the same way at all. Are we arguing no incest or one-true-Baratheon incest? Because I'm getting confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 But would the North fight with Tywin? He still has razed the Riverlands remember? And Joff is still illegitimate, Stannis is fighting for the trueborn child.Joff is still Jaime's remember?Oh, my bad. I was working on the premise that Joff (or whoever was Robert + Cersei's first,) being trueborn and hence actually the heir. Sorry :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Are we arguing no incest or one-true-Baratheon incest? Because I'm getting confused.Me too. I'm all confuzzled. :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Are we arguing no incest or one-true-Baratheon incest? Because I'm getting confused.What do you mean? I'm responding to the assertions that if Cersei's children were not "abominations born of incest" nothing would have changed. I'm just pointing out that without twincest, in all likelihood things would have played out much differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Kittens Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 A tamed lioness Cersei will be boring, but a vengeful lioness Cersei will be more rousing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Are we arguing no incest or one-true-Baratheon incest? Because I'm getting confused.I think this might be the issue, lol. If joff has no right to the throne but myrcella and tommen do then yes, ned is simprisoned and everything happens much the same. Except stannis does not want to be a king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Honestly, if there were no Twincest, none of the events would have played out in nearly the same way at all. LF's motivation for having Lysa poison Jon Arryn wasn't to get the Vale. Lysa was put up to it, but readily agreed to the poison because she was already extremely upset about the fostering. It's really unlikely that she would have come up with the idea to poison him on her own.What's crucial about the issue of fostering is that this was part of Stannis and Jon's "cleaning house," so to speak, just before outing the incest. Sending SR to Dragonstone was part of their plan to get their pieces into place as preparation for when twincest shit hit the fan. To twincest, no fostering.I have no doubt that LF would have stirred things anyway, but without incest nothing would have been the same.Aww butterbumps, you need only one post to say what took me several. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Oh, my bad. I was working on the premise that Joff (or whoever was Robert + Cersei's first,) being trueborn and hence actually the heir. Sorry :(Joff was conceived (supposedly) as an act of revenge:Jaime dubbed the castle “Greenshit” at first sight, and soon had Cersei doing it too. Elsewise she passed her days watching her royal husband hawk, hunt, and drink with his uncles, and bludgeon various male cousins senseless in Greenshit’s yard.There had been a female cousin too, a chunky little widow with breasts as big as melons whose husband and father had both died at Storm’s End during the siege. “Her father was good to me,” Robert told her, “and she and I would play together when the two of us weresmall.” It did not take him long to start playing with her again. As soon as Cersei closed her eyes, the king would steal off to console the poorlonely creature. One night she had Jaime follow him, to confirm her suspicions. When her brother returned he asked her if she wanted Robert dead. “No,” she had replied, “I want him horned.” She liked to think that was the night when Joffrey was conceived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Joff was conceived (supposedly) as an act of revenge:Ok, that's fine. I thought we were talking about hypothetically what happens if Cersei's kids are trueborn Baratheons. I didn't read closely enough. :blushing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Joff was conceived (supposedly) as an act of revenge:Yup, they both share the blame for the shitty marriage they had. If robert were not such a dick and cercei not so crazy things would be different indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Also, just to answer the OP, yes, I do believe she would do it again. The twincest isn't actually the cause of her losses; it's in her poor management of state and inability to resist self-destruction via intrigue that back fires. She could have gotten away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 She could have gotten away with it.I dont know, maybe. Gotten away with having jaimes kids, you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I dont know, maybe. Gotten away with having jaimes kids, you mean?yes. The Twincest actually caused more problems for other families than it did for the Lannisters when you actually look at it. The Lannisters subsequently ran themselves into the ground through completely unnecessary power plays amongst themselves, and as well as poor decisions in terms of intrigue (Cersei's huge blunder was being so visibly against the Tyrells, pushing away potential alliances, and of course, the idiocy with the HS/ framing Marg). The realm was ready to move on, but Cersei just could not help herself. The Lannisters generally self-destructed, but it wasn't quite due to the incest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 yes. The Twincest actually caused more problems for other families than it did for the Lannisters when you actually look at it. The Lannisters subsequently ran themselves into the ground through completely unnecessary power plays amongst themselves, and as well as poor decisions in terms of intrigue (Cersei's huge blunder was being so visibly against the Tyrells, pushing away potential alliances, and of course, the idiocy with the HS/ framing Marg). The realm was ready to move on, but Cersei just could not help herself. The Lannisters generally self-destructed, but it wasn't quite due to the incest.Perhaps, stannis wont give up though. And while he fights she will always be in danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Perhaps, stannis wont give up though. And while he fights she will always be in danger.yes, be that as it may, the real issue to whoever is on the IT is really Varys-Aegon-Dany, which is still the case.ETA: and to clarify, their invasion has nothing to do with the legitimacy of Cersei's kids. The incest sorely helped all these families become incredibly divided, aided even further by Lannister self-destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Why are we asking if Cersei "would do it all again"? Shouldn't we be asking if Robert, whose actions directly led to Cersei's, "would do it all again"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 ETA: and to clarify, their invasion has nothing to do with the legitimacy of Cersei's kids. The incest sorely helped all these families become incredibly divided, aided even further by Lannister self-destruction.But aegon invading a united realm is just a minor annoyance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.