Crazy Theory: Tywin Knew About the Purple Wedding.

[Morienthar]

If he did have something to do with it,He sort of mucked up when they decided to blame Tyrion for it.

[Chris White]

I can't fault your reasoning, but i doubt Tywin would go through all that trouble when they could just orchestrate another "hunting accident" or something along those lines.

[Ser Not Appearing]

The pie wasn't for Tyrion at all. Don't know where you got that one. It was a centerpiece of the feast, and the King himself was asked to cut and eat it.

My impression was that he took Tyrion's piece of pie. Faulty memory, I guess.

It is most definitely Tyrion's piece of pie that Joff eats right before "choking."

After Joff cuts the giant pie a serving man places a piece in front of Tyrion with a spoon of something on top. Joff comes over, demands wine, and even comments that Tyrion hasn't eaten his pie... then begins to eat it.

[Ser Not Appearing]

Because of his desire to defend the family name and minimize embarrassment. Tyrion's very existence embarrassed the hell out of him. If he had decided to get rid of Joffrey because Tommen was more tractable, he may have just decided to get rid of Tyrion, too. If not, Joffrey's death (and Cersei's accusation) still gave him the opportunity to get rid of Tyrion.

Tywin had told Tyrion that Tyrion would never get the Rock - but Jaime's refusal to leave the King's Guard made Tyrion the heir apparent, and Tywin finally had to face that. Tywin could not simply exclude Tyrion from the succession of House Lannister.

Nipping the trial in the bud was not an option after Cersei accused Tyrion publicly of murdering her son.

I don't think your theory idiotic at all.

Tyrion suspected the wine immediately (the wine and Sansa) when Joffrey choked, but Tyrion couldn't know.

Most people prefer the theory that the wine was poisoned by the Tyrells, citing as proof the vision of snakes in Sansa's hairnet, a hairnet that was missing one stone after Olenna Tyrell fixed it for her. And they attribute the poison's effect to a poison usually dissolved in wine. The Tyrells had a motive for killing Joffrey after Sansa confessed what sort of monster Joffrey was.

But they also had a motive to poison Tyrion who got between them and their plans for Sansa. They might have had less opportunity to poison the pie, but I think the pie is still a possibility. And Tywin had a motive to get rid of Tyrion, too. Tyrion kept reminding Tywin that he was his heir, and Tywin didn't like that at all. The argument against this theory is that Tywin would not spoil his grandson's wedding by killing Tyrion... But I think he may have intended exactly that, as a lesson for Joffrey. The harsh lesson both Cersei and Tyrion knew was coming when Joffrey insulted his grandfather. And then Joffrey went, and ate the pie intended for Tyrion.

I disagree that nipping a trial in the bud wasn't possible. Tywin simply says she was guilt stricken at the death of her son and not thinking clearly, then demands that she publicly says she was wrong. In fact, Sansa is missing... it was the Stark girl not a fellow Lannister, never that! ... then Tyrion gets pushed down a flight of stairs or "assaulted" outside a brothel and the Lannister name is spared the ugliness of the imp kinslaying his nephew at the biggest wedding ever.

Perfectly clean? No. Much cleaner than the Lannister monster kinslaying the Lannister(ish) king at his wedding? Certainly. It's a minor gripe, but one I feel is pretty legitimate the more I consider it.

Killing Tyrion at the wedding makes sense for many parties, IMO. It frees up Sansa again, teaches a lesson to either Joff from Tywin or the Lannisters from the Tyrells in general... Tyrion's murder makes a lot of sense and would draw less attention / possible discovery than killing the King in so public a place.

The only other thing that I keep returning to in that build-up is the scorpion red broach gifted to Joffrey before the wedding... but I can't think how that plays into anything beyond that scorpions and poison seem a strong connection.

[Big Finger]

OP hasn't given any evidence that Tywin knew about the wedding. Just evidence that Tywin would benefit from Joffery's death. I think everybody would benefit from Joffery's death, so by this same logic the entire realm would have known about the Purple wedding, even if they weren't involved.

[Guest]

I don't think that he planned it, but I think he just rolled with it after the fact. Oh well, spilt milk and all that. Hey look, I can disown Tyrion now! Awesome!

[unSonofStannis]

I don't doubt it one bit from that old scumbag afterall he did just off some enemies of his at a previous wedding, why not another?

[raziel.r]

This thread clears up a point I was quite bothered about. I find it hard to believe how Tywin and Kevan could believe Tyrion guilty of poisoning Joffery given how well the know him. The two of them of all people should know how much Tyrion values his life and that he is more than clever enough to be able to plan a murder that would not so obviously implicate himself - ie. Sansa's disappearance and the lack of an exit strategy.

I'm leaning towards Tywin not having a hand in it, but he looks upon it favourably, taking the opportunity to rid Tyrion either by death or sending him to the wall and make it such that a more worthy heir in his eyes would inherit Casterly Rock. This would explain Kevan attempting to convince Tyrion to confess, telling him his father would spare him and send him to the wall.

I agree Oberyn poisioned Tywin, which is partly why Oberyn champion Tyrion tried to gain his support to crown Myrcella, since with Tywin dead and Jaime the LC, Casterly Rock would pass to Tyrion.

[Jory Cassel]

It's not impossible, but completely out of manner for Tywin, considering how important respect and his reputation of a powerful house are for him.

As someone mentioned before, something nice and quiet like a hunting accident would have made sense but a king descended from a Lannister dying

at his own wedding feast would be a display of weakness in Tywin's eyes. Hard to believe he planned or tolerated it.

[messem]

Consider: Tywin has effectively just broken his most powerful remaining foe in Robb Stark through the Red Wedding, simultaneously bringing the North and the Riverlands to heel, Stannis is on Dragonstone but is effectively powerless, and moves are being made to ally the Vale and Dorne with the Iron Throne. The only issue here is Joffrey himself. Tywin views him as an incompetent king, comparing him to Robert, a king that Tywin thinks little of (Although Tyrion thinks Joffrey is perhaps more like Aerys, a king Tywin also thought very little of, if not outright despises) in his madness and cruelty, and states that Joffrey needs to be taught "a sharp lesson." Not many lessons sharper than death, are there?

I stopped reading the OP there. It reminded me of the following quote "I am for the death penalty. Who commits terrible acts must get a fitting punishment. That way he learns the lesson for the next time." (Britney Spears)

But, Tywin ain't no Britney.

[The Duke]

I'm not sold, but he certainly had a lot to gain from Joff's death.

[The Dragon Queen]

i don't think Tywin was involved in any away with the murder and the reason being (Joff was FAMILY! the most important thing to Tywin! FAMILY NAME! Joff death left a stain on the Lannister name especially with Tyrion being accused of the murder...however he quickly adapted to the circumstances and thought out all the benefits ...also he wasn't broke up about it because lets face Joff was a psychopathic brat that only a mother could love!

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

If Tywin was responsible, or knew and did nothing, I'd have even more respect for him.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I like this but I find it almost impossible to believe Tywin would kill Joffrey. If he spared Tyrion he'll surely spare Joffrey.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Taking down Joffrey and Tyrion at the same time would get rid of all his problem relatives in one shot. Without having to technically do anything. However, it would mean that someone attacked the Lannisters. I can't see him allowing that.

[msmolly]

I do love the idea, but I don't buy it at all.

For one thing, Sansa's far too valuable to the Lannisters, either as Tyrion's wife or a bargaining chip for other allies. If Tywin was plotting with LF, he'd be an idiot not to guess who had spirited her away.

Secondly, even if he was actively plotting Tyrion's death, I can't understand why putting him on a very public trial for his life as a king/kinslayer is going to be a help to the family prestige, even if it guaranteed his death. If he was determined to kill Tyrion, there would be plenty of ways to do so without having to bring up Tyrion's whoremongering, his hatred of his own family or any other potentially embarrassing details. Same with killing Joffrey - as another PP mentioned, the PW was supposed to be a PR triumph for the Lannisters. If he wanted Joff out of the way, why do it at that particular moment?

At the end of the day I think that like Cersei he probably genuinely thought Tyrion was guilty, however his own personal hatred of his own son propelled him to ensure that Tyrion was executed.

[PrinceBreakspear]

I believe that if Tywin was willing to kill Joffrey, or even just let him die, then Tyrion would have been dead years ago.

[Arya_Ghostface]

I think the OP laid out a very clearly Tywin's interests in Joff''s death, but I don't think Tywin knew about the murder plot, for many reasons already mentioned (I only read through the first couple of pages of this thread, sorry).

However I also think that the main problem with the theory is that it's assuming Tywin is a lot smarter than what he showed he was. Or, to be fairer, a lot more emotionally smart. Tywin appears to be a very good strategist and plotter, but from what I remember in the books, he didn't seem to be able to understand, much less control, other people's feelings and character. Varys and LF were able to anticipate how Tyrion or Catelyn would react based on their feelings (Tyrion needed Shae, Catelyn trusted LF because of his love for her) and used that to their advantage.

Tywin, on the other hand:

- fails to understand Tyrion's feelings time and time again, contributing to Tyrion's daddy issues and his own death

- fails to see that Joffrey is a psychopath. He really thinks he's just an unruly teenager, I mean, really? One look at him was enough to make Arya hate him, but Tywin was blind to Joff's problem even after he ordered Ned's death against everyone's wishes! And all he says that he needs just a sharp lesson? Really?

- fails to understand what motivates Jaime to stay in the KIngsguard.

- Basically Tywin never seems aware of the fact that Cersei and Jaime were an incestuous couple, and if he knew it, he never acted and this caused an awful lot of damage

- fails to see how Cersei is useless and lets her keep raising her children.

So all in all, Tywin may be great in arranging battles, but not smart enough to know he has to put Joff out of the way, whether by killing him or subduing him. And that's another reason why I think Tywin was not involved in the murder.

[direwienerdog]

OP

Did you eat any of Tyrion's mushrooms?

Tywin wanted to reform Joffrey not kill him.

Yup, Tywin felt with himself as Hand,he could bring Joff back into line. He blames his grandsons behavior on weak counselors and an over indulgent mother. Thus his plan to marry Cersci off,gain a vital alliance and get the mother away from the

Son.

[direwienerdog]

“You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him.”Oh, my, hasn’t this gotten interesting? Tyrion thought.

Lord Tywin studied his grandchild in silence, gold flecks shining in his pale green eyes. “Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather,” said Cersei.

He wrenched free of her. “Why should I? Everyone knows it’s true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock.” The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. “A strong king acts boldly, he doesn’t just talk.”

“Thank you for that wisdom, Your Grace,” Lord Tywin said, with a courtesy so cold it was like to freeze their ears off.

Tywin Doesn't seem like the kind of man to forget a slight like this. not all that unlikely he would want to extend his own rule.

This defiant look came just after Tywin took back his position of Hand.

He is more like to spank Joff than kill him. After all the poor choices Joff has made, Tywin is determined to separate Joff from Cersci. Joff's defiance come as a result of fear of his grandfather.