Crazy Theory: Tywin Knew About the Purple Wedding.

[anonymouseuser]

i don't think Tywin was involved in any away with the murder and the reason being (Joff was FAMILY! the most important thing to Tywin! FAMILY NAME! Joff death left a stain on the Lannister name especially with Tyrion being accused of the murder...however he quickly adapted to the circumstances and thought out all the benefits ...also he wasn't broke up about it because lets face Joff was a psychopathic brat that only a mother could love!

It always gets me how this 'family' thing is trotted out every time Tywin's behaviour is questioned. It should be clear from the text that his interpretation of what is good for the Lannister family is the same as General Motor's idea of what's good for America!

[King Jon Targ]

I fail to see any real evidence outside of Tywin would benefit from Joff being dead. I just don't see it.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I fail to see any real evidence outside of Tywin would benefit from Joff being dead. I just don't see it.

Aside from Cersei, I can't think of anyone who DIDN'T benefit from Joffrey's death. There was much rejoicing.

And while it's Crackpot, I could see Tywin finding out about it and simply letting it happen. It removes all his other potential barriers in the future, as well as the son he despises so much. Tywin knew that Joffrey was King Aerys come again and knew that if he couldn't be changed by the time he was 16, then the realm was doomed and the Lannisters would go the way of the Targaryen. Tywin did what he did for the benefit of the family as a whole (if he knew about it that is).

[Lord_Tyrell]

Tytos Lannister died of a heart attack, I doubt that Tywin had anything to do with that at all. And I'm not buying that Tywin wanted Joffrey dead either, it makes absolutely no sense. Kill Joffrey to put Tommen on the throne while you're in the middle of 5 rebellions?

Don't kill him, and you'll have 5 more rebellions under your fist in 3 years when he comes of age. If Joffrey had been 16, he would have had all the families in the Riverlands and North killed, and thus continue the rebellion, and Joffrey was likely bidding his time before he killed them anyway til he was 16.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Yeah, as someone said - if Tywin was willing to kill his own grandson whom he only had disdain for, why would he not kill his own son who he despised; why, indeed, would he put up with the embarrassing, whoring, drinking, cartwheeling, wise-cracking, ugly dwarf for so long, even going so far as to arrange a good marriage for him, go to war over his capture, give him power as acting Hand, etc? It's inconsistent with what we know of Tywin.

Tyrion wasn't a threat to him, the family, or the realm. Tyrion was just a massive disappointment.

And also, if he was to kill of Joff, why would he wait until Joff was king and rebellion plaguing the land? Also inconsistent with Tywin's sense of good timing. So I think this theory highly unlikely.

Do you think Robert would have stopped his rebellion once Aerys and Rhaegar were dead and Viserys was sitting on the throne? No, Tywin had to dispose of him before any more rebellions occurred. That theory only works with a different family trying to start a new dynasty, not to the current one.

[Ludd]

I have long thought that the story we are told about the purple wedding is rubbish. I feel sure that Tywin DID assist in the killing of Joffrey.

My theory is that Littlefinger (who we know whispers in Joffrey's ear) set up the purple wedding to simultaneously blame the Tyrells AND Sansa in the death of TYRION.

Joffrey planted the poison in an effort to kill Trion.

Tywin I think twigged to the plot. Perhaps he initially intended just to foil it but suddenly when he saw Joffrey humiliate and LAUGH at Tyrion. (Tywin hates and fears laughter) Tywin I think suddenly realised that Joffrey was mad and dangerous beyond redemption. Rather than foil the plot he switched it so that Joffrey took his OWN poison which was supposed to be eaten in Tyrion's pie.

[Juli]

I think Tywin knew of the plot and did nothing to stop it.

[the trees have eyes]

I think Tywin knew of the plot and did nothing to stop it.

He went to war for Tyrion, a son he loathes, to avoid insults to his House. I don't believe for a moment he colluded in the murder of his grandson at his own wedding feast or in the subsequent framing of his son for that murder. For a man who wants above all to protect the image and status of his House these are two big no-no's.

[Jory Cassel]

He went to war for Tyrion, a son he loathes, to avoid insults to his House. I don't believe for a moment he colluded in the murder of his grandson at his own wedding feast or in the subsequent framing of his son for that murder. For a man who wants above all to protect the image and status of his House these are two big no-no's.

I doubt that, a ) he did not actually declare war, he sent clegane with no banners raised to forage the riverlands b ) if Tyrion's abduction actually was the reason or only a convenient pretext to attack remains to be seen (or rather: as Tywin is dead, we won't see).

I agree with the rest, though, Tywin would've never suffered the humiliation of a Lannister being murdered at a royal wedding feast if he'd even had the faintest possibility to avoid it.

[Not a kneeler]

I keep coming back to this topic because there is something there that nags at me.

Joff was a hazard to the Lannister legacy and there was a second - Tommen, but would that make Tywin administer a sharp lesson in the form of death? I don't think so, and neither do I believe that he would countenance someone else killing him. He didn't know that Joff was going to be poisened. That, however, does not mean that he wasn't an inadvertent part of something going down.

This is pure speculation and probably never to be proved, but suppose he put something in Tyrion's pie, not enough to kill him, but enough to make him sick, as a sharp lesson to Joff to show what could happen if he didn't stay in line. That line to Tyrion about Joffrey needling a sharp lesson has too much portent to be just wasted. It had to mean something. We will probably never know. All the witnesses are dead or fled. Who would know except the server, and I can't see him showing his hand. When Joff died it became imperitive for him to flee for his life and never say a word.

[finger]

He went to war for Tyrion, a son he loathes, to avoid insults to his House. I don't believe for a moment he colluded in the murder of his grandson at his own wedding feast or in the subsequent framing of his son for that murder. For a man who wants above all to protect the image and status of his House these are two big no-no's.

No way. He went to war because he felt a sleight to his house from Houses Stark and Tully, even though he didn't care for Tyrion.

[finger]

We all know that one can hardly estate anything for sure in this series. But, that said, I buy into the idea of Tywin being behind all the plot, not only Joff's death. He obviously counted with the help of LF and the Tyrrells.

I also have to say that I've read gross mistakes from some who deny the theory, somewhat willfully. Where should I start?

It's called the PW because Jod died poisonned with the "strangler", which comes in little deep purple cristals, as those in Sansa's hairnet. Forget about the thrice damned pie, if you please.

Then, am I to remember you that Tywin was the head of House Lanninster? He had promised without bid a harsh lesson to Joff. A Lannister always pays his debts, and he'd had bloody good time for some lesser thing.

The executor was LF, who confessed it to Sansa to impress her. But he was a bit over himself, and he didn't tell the whole truth; I doubt even silly Sansa beleived him. Who's he trying to deceive? He'd never dare that by his own, without Tywin's approval.

LF mongered the Tyrrell jump in Lannister wagon, and he did it via Olena and Tywin. Most probably it was Olena herself who put the strangler in the cup.

LF presented it in open quarrel with Tyrion: he had offered him Harrenhall and Lysa's hand and that, and no other, was the reward he claimed from Tywin. It was a slap in Tyrion's face, but not the last wound.

Joff was a royal pain in everybody's ars. Anyone but Cersei was willing to get rid of him. Moreover, Tywin was most pissed off with Cersei for having spoilt the kid beyond remmedy.

Btw, the execution was somehow FM's kind of doing. I wonder if there was some "technical assistance". Tywin sure could afford it...

This is just the beginning, the plot is much deeper. Who sent Mandon Moore? Why is Tywin so specially crossed with Tyrion right now? Who informed whom? Who worked for whom?

You ain't seen nothing yet.

[HannibalStark]

hypothetically speaking, if he did become aware of the plot...as people have pointed out, causing a big deal and "accusing" the Flowers of Highgarden would cause problems and would dramatically weaken is martial strength...

so say he knew, he 1) keeps quiet about it because: 1a) he doesn't want to "loose the Flowers" 1b) in principle he knows that Joff is a little c#%t and has the makings of a horrible king and Tommen would be more "manageable" Hell, he might have even found a way to rid himself of a son (Tyrion) that was only getting more and more dangerous...and pinning the whole thing on him, then letting him take the black would be a convenient way to rid himself of two troublesome family members and securing himself as the undisputed ruler of Westeros.... but there have been many comments about how Tywin had chances to get rid of Tyrion whom he had seen as an embarressment since he was born, and hasn't.

Even though Tywin seems to dispise his imp son, because he IS a Lannister by the laws of man and god, there was nothing he could do...and because he was a Lannister- even though he was the lowest of them, Tywin ended up going to war over his being imp-napped.

I can see his reasons for going along with it, both ridding himself of his leacherous little imp of a son, and a complete shit of a king in the making....but it seems that Tywin did believe he could reign Joff in, which it seems he might have been doing....so knowing what we have seen out of Tywin, even though it might solve a couple of problem for him, that would mean he would in a way take the side of the Tyrells by allowing it to happen....and this does not seem at all in character with him. I would never believe Tywin would side with another family, or sit complicit , knowing what was going to happen, even if it solves two problems for him, Tywin seems to be all about family and not letting anyone else shit on ANY of his family. It just seems to out of character for Tywin to either know about it and let it happen, or let alone have a part in it happening in advance.

He never seems to upset when it happens though....so maybe he was like, hey, sweet...a shit head down...but I still think he would have been more pissed if he felt someone or some family "got one over" on the Lannisters.

[anonymouseuser]

I don't believe for a second that Tywin wasn't concerned about how things with Joffrey would pan out, and sooner rather than later given that Joff was just a couple of years away from ruling in his own right. As for Tywin not being willing to kill one of his own because of the sacred Lannister name - that's pure BS. As I said before that's just Tywin speak for whatever suits him at the time. I DON'T think he deliberately framed Tyrion - that was something LF slipped by him with the dwarf 'entertainment' he organised. Once Tyrion had been compromised what else could Tywin do? Say "hold everything! My son is innocent - I happen to know that the Tyrells are the real killers". This would also explain why he was so keen for Tyrion to admit everything and go to The Wall.

As far as Tywin was concerned it was a win win situation. He got the Tyrells armies and support, a more pliant (and much younger) king he could boss around and mould to his own liking and as a bonus he shafts the son he has always hated, but had to put up with.

I'm amazed more Tywin fans aren't shouting this from the rooftops - it's a great plan. Tyrion putting a crossbow bolt through his vitals was a better one, however!

[Max Berg]

OK, so this is kind of an out there idea, but it's one that's been rattling around in my brain for awhile:

Tywin knew about the Tyrell-Baelish plot to kill Joffrey, if he didn't have a direct hand in it.

Consider: Tywin has effectively just broken his most powerful remaining foe in Robb Stark through the Red Wedding, simultaneously bringing the North and the Riverlands to heel, Stannis is on Dragonstone but is effectively powerless, and moves are being made to ally the Vale and Dorne with the Iron Throne. The only issue here is Joffrey himself. Tywin views him as an incompetent king, comparing him to Robert, a king that Tywin thinks little of (Although Tyrion thinks Joffrey is perhaps more like Aerys, a king Tywin also thought very little of, if not outright despises) in his madness and cruelty, and states that Joffrey needs to be taught "a sharp lesson." Not many lessons sharper than death, are there?

Joffrey therefore serves as more of an impediment and obstacle to any of Tywin's long-term plans.

Now, remember that Joffrey's heir is Tommen, pliant, biddable and malleable. In the case of Joffrey, Tywin has only two or so more years before he comes of age, and becomes some combined version of Aegon IV and Aerys II, with Robert sprinkles on top, that will screw the pooch and likely bring the rest of the Kingdoms into revolt.

Tommen, on the other hand, has another seven years, in which Tywin can directly influence the course of events in Westeros. By eliminating Joffrey, Tywin also removes a public relations nightmare in Joffrey, replacing the petulant, sociopathic King with one who is sweeter and gentler in Tommen. Tommen can therefore be molded into being a better King than Joffrey, as Tywin discussed with Jaime, meaning that when he is King in his own right, Tommen will most likely be better at it than Joffrey.

Now, with Tommen as King, one who will listen to his grandfather (I know that Tywin was Hand of the King, but was he ever officially Regent?) in all regards, Tywin can make another move: Releasing Jaime from the Kingsguard, irregardless of Jaime's feelings, and making use of him by returning him to Casterly Rock, perhaps even marrying Margaery to him, thus soothing the Tyrells, unless they insist that Margaery marry Tommen, but either way the Tyrells win.

Cersei would also be used, either to secure Dorne by marrying her to Oberyn or tying the Reach permanently to the Throne by wedding her to Willas Tyrell. In a single move, Tywin gets his prized son and heir returned, opens a spot on the Kingsguard that he can fill with someone of political advantage, and removes Cersei from King's Landing, who has shown herself to be recalcitrant, while also increasing political power by binding another region closer to the Throne.

This also brings up a key point: Tyrion, who Tywin has loathed and disregarded. Currently married to Sansa Stark in an unconsumated marriage. Part of the Baelish plot is to bring in the jousting dwarfs to enrage Tyrion, make Joffrey happy and goad his uncle, therefore casting suspicion onto Tyrion. Tywin sees this opportunity, and uses it to shift all of the blame onto Tyrion, move onto a show trial, and ultimately send him to the Wall, removing Tyrion from the succession of Casterly Rock. Since all marriages are voided by the taking of the black, and the union is unconsummated anyways, Tywin also gains Sansa as a bargaining chip. Remember, Tywin has already been discussing using a child of Sansa and Tyrion to claim the North under the logic that after the rule of the Greyjoys and Boltons, the Northerners will be crying out for a Stark, even one with Lannister blood. He uses that same logic for Sansa-Kept pure, and under Lannister control, Tywin can use Sansa. Promise Sansa to a loyal Western bannerman or Lannister relative, or to Jaime if the Tyrells insist that Margaery marry Tommen, and in a few years, when the North has had enough of Ramsay and the Greyjoys, return Sansa to the North with a suckling babe, Ned's grandson, and successfully restore the "rightful" rulers of the North.

Now, it's unlikely that Tywin was directly involved in the planning or organization of the plot, though not out of the realm of possibility. But my guess is that he knew of it and approved in some manner, seeing the long-term possibilities of having Tommen on the Throne and all that could result. But Baelish's vanishment of Sansa, followed by Oberyn's sudden championing of Tyrion at his trial, leading to Oberyn's death, threw those plans for a loop. Even then though, Tywin was adapting the situation to his advantage, telling the Tyrells that he would add Garth Tyrell to the small council, strengthening that alliance. But of course, Tywin couldn't keep his mouth shut and dies on the privy from his own sons crossbow bolt, and Cersei proceeds to ruin every plan that he had made.

Everything works out very well and fits the character.

Though the fact that what happened was really convenient to him and he surely didn't weep for his grandson department.. is it really necessary for the story as we know it?

What can't be explained unless this theory is true?

[shiola]

He would never orchestrate it-- especially not alongside the Tyrells, who could use the information that he participated in it against him at any point in time.

And if he did not orchestrate it, and did not stop it, but still knew... well, that's still blackmail on him.

I don't think Tywin would allow this magnitude of potential blackmail to come within ten leagues of him, haha.

But I really want to believe this theory. I realllllly do. And parts of it make a lot of sense. It's just that a few more things don't make sense.

[anonymouseuser]

He would never orchestrate it-- especially not alongside the Tyrells, who could use the information that he participated in it against him at any point in time.

And if he did not orchestrate it, and did not stop it, but still knew... well, that's still blackmail on him.

I don't think Tywin would allow this magnitude of potential blackmail to come within ten leagues of him, haha.

But I really want to believe this theory. I realllllly do. And parts of it make a lot of sense. It's just that a few more things don't make sense.

That's assuming the Tyrells know Tywin is aware of the plot. I don't think they are. This is a LF job to my mind; remember the 'gift' of Harrenhall and the marriage to Lysa? I think Tywin may have commissioned LF to act as a go between: LF goes to the QoT and suggests the plan (not mentioning that the original idea came from Tywin). In that case Tywin would have no fear of blackmail since LF gets his rapid social advancement thanks to Lannister support. Even if LF doublecrosses Tywin and tells Oleanna the truth it would be like the RW all over again. Tywin has plausible deniability - it's his word against LF's.

[Roadside Rose]

There are so many loose ends to the purple wedding. Like Tyrion kills Tywin, but later at his funeral his corpse reeks and we suspect he was poisoned before Tyrion killed him. So who was trying to kill Tywin? And why? LF admits he and Olenna killed Joff, but how? And why would Olenna spend all that money on a wedding if it was to kill the boy? There are many things that just don't add up.

That said, I still don't think Tywin would kill Joffrey. He gave Tyrion a sharp lesson a long time ago by having his soldiers rape Tysha. He didn't kill Tyrion. I don't think Tywin ever meant to kill Joffrey.

I've read other posters suggest that Tywin masterminded the Purple Wedding. It's an interesting theory. But I am not sure I buy it yet.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

I could imagine Tywin planning Joffrey's murder himself before he would allow any other house to strike House Lannister.

[Lord Pentragon]

OK, so this is kind of an out there idea, but it's one that's been rattling around in my brain for awhile:

Tywin knew about the Tyrell-Baelish plot to kill Joffrey, if he didn't have a direct hand in it.

Consider: Tywin has effectively just broken his most powerful remaining foe in Robb Stark through the Red Wedding, simultaneously bringing the North and the Riverlands to heel, Stannis is on Dragonstone but is effectively powerless, and moves are being made to ally the Vale and Dorne with the Iron Throne. The only issue here is Joffrey himself. Tywin views him as an incompetent king, comparing him to Robert, a king that Tywin thinks little of (Although Tyrion thinks Joffrey is perhaps more like Aerys, a king Tywin also thought very little of, if not outright despises) in his madness and cruelty, and states that Joffrey needs to be taught "a sharp lesson." Not many lessons sharper than death, are there?

Joffrey therefore serves as more of an impediment and obstacle to any of Tywin's long-term plans.

Now, remember that Joffrey's heir is Tommen, pliant, biddable and malleable. In the case of Joffrey, Tywin has only two or so more years before he comes of age, and becomes some combined version of Aegon IV and Aerys II, with Robert sprinkles on top, that will screw the pooch and likely bring the rest of the Kingdoms into revolt.

Tommen, on the other hand, has another seven years, in which Tywin can directly influence the course of events in Westeros. By eliminating Joffrey, Tywin also removes a public relations nightmare in Joffrey, replacing the petulant, sociopathic King with one who is sweeter and gentler in Tommen. Tommen can therefore be molded into being a better King than Joffrey, as Tywin discussed with Jaime, meaning that when he is King in his own right, Tommen will most likely be better at it than Joffrey.

Now, with Tommen as King, one who will listen to his grandfather (I know that Tywin was Hand of the King, but was he ever officially Regent?) in all regards, Tywin can make another move: Releasing Jaime from the Kingsguard, irregardless of Jaime's feelings, and making use of him by returning him to Casterly Rock, perhaps even marrying Margaery to him, thus soothing the Tyrells, unless they insist that Margaery marry Tommen, but either way the Tyrells win.

Cersei would also be used, either to secure Dorne by marrying her to Oberyn or tying the Reach permanently to the Throne by wedding her to Willas Tyrell. In a single move, Tywin gets his prized son and heir returned, opens a spot on the Kingsguard that he can fill with someone of political advantage, and removes Cersei from King's Landing, who has shown herself to be recalcitrant, while also increasing political power by binding another region closer to the Throne.

This also brings up a key point: Tyrion, who Tywin has loathed and disregarded. Currently married to Sansa Stark in an unconsumated marriage. Part of the Baelish plot is to bring in the jousting dwarfs to enrage Tyrion, make Joffrey happy and goad his uncle, therefore casting suspicion onto Tyrion. Tywin sees this opportunity, and uses it to shift all of the blame onto Tyrion, move onto a show trial, and ultimately send him to the Wall, removing Tyrion from the succession of Casterly Rock. Since all marriages are voided by the taking of the black, and the union is unconsummated anyways, Tywin also gains Sansa as a bargaining chip. Remember, Tywin has already been discussing using a child of Sansa and Tyrion to claim the North under the logic that after the rule of the Greyjoys and Boltons, the Northerners will be crying out for a Stark, even one with Lannister blood. He uses that same logic for Sansa-Kept pure, and under Lannister control, Tywin can use Sansa. Promise Sansa to a loyal Western bannerman or Lannister relative, or to Jaime if the Tyrells insist that Margaery marry Tommen, and in a few years, when the North has had enough of Ramsay and the Greyjoys, return Sansa to the North with a suckling babe, Ned's grandson, and successfully restore the "rightful" rulers of the North.

Now, it's unlikely that Tywin was directly involved in the planning or organization of the plot, though not out of the realm of possibility. But my guess is that he knew of it and approved in some manner, seeing the long-term possibilities of having Tommen on the Throne and all that could result. But Baelish's vanishment of Sansa, followed by Oberyn's sudden championing of Tyrion at his trial, leading to Oberyn's death, threw those plans for a loop. Even then though, Tywin was adapting the situation to his advantage, telling the Tyrells that he would add Garth Tyrell to the small council, strengthening that alliance. But of course, Tywin couldn't keep his mouth shut and dies on the privy from his own sons crossbow bolt, and Cersei proceeds to ruin every plan that he had made.

I think that this would be the most natural course of things,

yet I find it highly unlikely that he finally did it. He counts on the Tyrells and they want a royal marriage.

Therefore if he is such a bastard as to go and arrange his grandson's murder ( if he did so he might have had a small chat with Olenna Tyrell before he made it) so as to reap all the benefits, so be it! We love Tywin nontheless:P

Yet , I believe that being wedding-crusher twice in a book is too much, even for him