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Coldhands is The Night's King


Quiet Isle

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http://asoiaf.wester...es/page__st__80

but it doesn't really get developed.

Best theory I've seen so far. I never bought the Uncle Ben Stark = Coldhands theory. Bran spent days traveling with Coldhands and people are telling me he wouldn't have recognized his own uncle, whome he did know, not once?

Besides, Coldhands spoke the old tongue, unless uncle Ben took some classes in that language at the Wall it is highly unlikely he'd have known it. Martin has written somewhere that only the Wildlings spoke the old tongue in the ASOFAI timeline.

Well "redriver's" raven re-read thread makes me think (even though I hope I'm wrong) that Benjen is dead.

I think so too. Mormont's Raven (and whomever is warging the bird) isn't likely to be wrong.

I think though, that uncle Ben's death is being set up for something spectaculair. I mean, why didn't Martin just let the Rangers find his dead body during their ranging? He must have an ulterior purpose for ol' Ben.

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I'd like to posit another theory (that is even more in the arena of speculation):

When the First Men made the pact with the Children of the Forest, they no doubt incorporated a pact with the Greenseer (since he's of the children of the forest at that time). This pact likely involved a marriage between the children and the first men. The human who wed a child of the forest was a Stark (which is why a Stark has to be at Winterfell, as part of the agreement) -- and other houses mated with children, too, which is why we have so many wargers in the North. When the first men pushed the Wights into the North, they built a wall. Because of the truce between the children, the greenseer, and the first men, we can assume that the children, greenseer, and first men worked together to oust the Wights -- and thus worked together to construct the wall. This is why I believe that the Wall is actually comprised of weirwood roots (which explains the weirwood door at the Night's Fort).

Then I believe that Coldhands is the Night's King. Long ago, he gave his soul to the Wight's Queen (or a female of their society), and now he wants what they want -- to be below the wall and to destroy mankind. Because the Wights are not allowed below the wall, they have spent the years trying to figure out how to get down there. Because the greenseer is above the wall, and because the greenseer can manipulate weirwoods, the Wights want to control the greenseer position, so that they may then bring down the wall. Because Coldhands cannot enter into the children of the forest's caves (due to the children's magic), he had to find someone else who could take the seat. So Coldhands warged a human, forcing the human into the caves to kill the greenseer. Then (under the control of Coldhands) the human took the throne, giving Coldhands direct access to the greenseer's weirwood realm. This manipulated human is Bloodraven.

However, because the human isn't a greenseer himself, and because Coldhands isn't actually sitting on the throne, Coldhands needs a real greenseer who he can manipulate into taking down the wall. Enter Bran. Coldhands will manipulate Bran into taking down the wall; and though Bran will suspect ulterior motives, Bran will cooperate when he sees Jon heading to the wall with a vast company of needy Wildlings (that he has gotten from Hardhome, where Jon was taken by Val and Tormund after Jon is stabbed at the end of the last book), and the Others on Jon's trail.

Then we get the Wall destroyed and Bran beginning to fight back against Bloodraven (who is actually Coldhands).

Watcha think?

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On the one hand, Martin could have put that story in there to show the extent of the relationship between the NW and the CotF. But I think you're right in this case, that it's something more than just that.

I like to consider all possibilities, as long as they make sense and have some valid arguments, so for me the Night's King, Brandon Snow, and now Redwyn are all candidates for CH...

:agree: All three of the above candidates (maybe even sigh a NK offspring) seem to have some sort of semi-valid argument one way or another...as long as Benny isn't in the list, I'm game ;)

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  • 3 weeks later...

Doesn't this seem to indicate that the Night's King was definitely a Stark? I don't remember any mention of a non-Stark ever being one of the Kings of Winter.

This is the only stretch in the theory that I saw. We don't have any indication what happens to a human after mating with an other. It may be possible they end up half wight, half other, half human, and fully dead, which would be similar to coldhands.

Interesting theory, I like anything that isn't suggesting Benjen

i actually think the OP is onto sumthing...lets take the sacrificing of babies to the Others. Say the purpose of sacrificing a baby over and adult is because babies "stink of life"-gilly...in other worlds a baby has the potential life energy to grow into a full human being. I believe that the others may utilise this life energy to extend or preserve their own life force....now imagibe the seed....this seed as the potential to be millions of babies....concerntrated life force??

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Love the post. What about the idea that Coldhands is the child of the Night's King and the Other? It is hard to imagine the King in the North and the King-Beyond-the-Wall teaming up and not destroying the Night's King (i.e. burning his body).

I like him being the child of the Female Other and the Night's King. Because this sheds a whole new light on the Others and how they might not just be an army of darkness; they could be something much more complex - especially if there are more creatures like Coldhands (which I'm sure there are).

Someone mentioned the hero Symeon Star Eyes being part Other because of his strange, magically blue eyes and I love this idea too.

I like the idea of them being much more complex and not just EVIL ARMY OF DARKNESS OH NO

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Just to correct an earlier error on this thread.

King Dorren Stark wasn't the Seventh King of Winter. He is simply the seventh on the list that the wiki happens to present.

Firstly, the wiki doesn't have a full list of all Kings. They probably barely list 1% of the full list of Kings of Winter.

Secondly, that list isn't even in chronological order. For example, King Jon Stark who built the Wolf's Den at White Harbor lived between 3000 and 4000 years ago, based on the likely timeline provided by Lord Borrel of Sisterton and Ser Bartimus of White Harbor in Dance.

Brandon the Shipwright, and his son Brandon the Burner, on the other hand, seems to have lived within the last 1000 years. Yet they are listed as having lived BEFORE King Jon Stark on the wiki page.

There are more examples, but the point is, King Dorren could have lived at any time prior to Aegon's Conquest. He is certainly not the Seventh King of Winter.

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Bran shivered again. “The ranger …”

“He cannot come.”

“They’ll kill him.”

“No. They killed him long ago. Come now. It is warmer down deep, and no one will hurt you there. He is waiting for you.”

I can't believe how much people put into this simple sentence. In that context long doesn't have to mean more than a few days. Both the Night's King and Joramun for that matter are very much unconfirmed legends and bedtime stories.

What makes you think that the wight's can live for ever? They seem to be the Other's cheap, easy to replace canon fodder. They probably last long in the cold of the Other's presence and in winter, but in normal temperatures they rot just like other corpses as seen from the jar hand. How many summers would the Night's king have to outlast to still be around?

He can't have died earlier than the end of summer if you ask me. He's probably some just random ranger.

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Love the post. What about the idea that Coldhands is the child of the Night's King and the Other? It is hard to imagine the King in the North and the King-Beyond-the-Wall teaming up and not destroying the Night's King (i.e. burning his body).

wait what!? first time hearing about this one. that be even crazier than him being the king.

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The suggestion is that it's a ranger called Redwyn,not King Dorren.Redwyn lived in the time of King Dorren.

And unfortunately the novels don't give many more clues than that,other than the obvious. Dorren lived before the conquest.And Dorren may have been one of the earliest Stark kings.

It would be convenient if Martin had outlined the precise history of the Night's King,Coldhands,Benjen and all of the history of Westeros,really.

But he has been remiss in leaving out substantial parts.Hopefully he will give us more evidence to consider in the next novel.

Although,until then we may just have to put up with the evidence in the current novels.

GRRM is working on The World of ASOI&F, perhaps he'll go into greater detail there.

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I like him being the child of the Female Other and the Night's King. Because this sheds a whole new light on the Others and how they might not just be an army of darkness; they could be something much more complex - especially if there are more creatures like Coldhands (which I'm sure there are).

Someone mentioned the hero Symeon Star Eyes being part Other because of his strange, magically blue eyes and I love this idea too.

I like the idea of them being much more complex and not just EVIL ARMY OF DARKNESS OH NO

Interesting - (though Coldhands's eyes are black).

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Not sure if Coldhands is NK, but this is a billion times better than the silly "I think he's Benjen for absolutely no reason with absolutely no evidence!" drumbeat.

agreed. I like this theory a lot, if only for it simply being an alternative to the Ben Stark is CH theories that have no backing at all in the text.

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