R+L=J v 37

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Didn't you just read what we were discussing like 4-5 posts ago? If he was a bastard, do you have any explanation as to why the 3 best Kingsguard along )their LC being one of them, Sword of the morning another one) are guarding a bastard?

There is always an explanation; the problem is that the explanations are never as simple or logical as Jon being the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryren and Lyanna Stark. You can lay out quotes, reasoning, and the best evidence EVER, but some people will never acknowledge Jon as legitimate. For that reason alone, I have to take breaks from this thread.

I guess the biggest reason people fight against Jon being legitimate is that they don't want to see him on the throne, or they don't believe he would want to sit the throne. Jon being legitimate has nothing to do with that blasted chair, in my opinion. It just goes to show that Rhaegar truly loved Lyanna--who went with him willingly. It will also lead to great character development for Jon when he finally does not view himself as a bastard.

[HotPie!]

I think the Kingsguard do what they are told. I don't imagine them consulting a rulebook each time they're given an order. But that alone isn't enough to convince me that Rhaegar either took a second wife or that he magicked up a divorce from his first. Again, I go back to, it is not in Jon's nature to be king. If he struggled with the idea of taking Winterfell how much harder a time would he have with taking the iron throne. Nope John is Night's Watch till he dies.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I think the Kingsguard do what they are told. I don't imagine them consulting a rulebook each time they're given an order. But that alone isn't enough to convince me that Rhaegar either took a second wife or that he magicked up a divorce from his first. Again, I go back to, it is not in Jon's nature to be king. If he struggled with the idea of taking Winterfell how much harder a time would he have with taking the iron throne. Nope John is Night's Watch till he dies.

1. The Kingsguard at the ToJ site their vows as reasoning for being at the tower.

2. Rhaegar wouldn't need to divorce his first wife to take a second.

3. Being legitimate does not mean Jon will be king.

[HotPie!]

I believe he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son but I think he is their bastard. Being illegitimate is completely part of his identity and why readers egage with him. Unveiling him as a prince would completely destroy the character in my opinion. It would be the stuff of fairytales and I don't think Martin writes fairytales. I think Jon is their lovechild with all the complexity that comes from that circumstance.

[MtnLion]

At the same time, Aegon takes Kingslanding and maybe takes a wound. As he is concerned for his new Kingdown, and has no heirs, JonCon tells him he does have an heir. You see Rheagar confided in him that Lyann was pregnant, and JonCon puts it all togther. Aegon, you have a half brother, named after me, he was raised the bastard of Winterfell, but rose to LC of the NW.

Aegon thinks this is a good plausible heir, since Dany has yet to show up and names Jon Snow his heir.

Jon Connington was sent into exile after the Battle of the Bells. Some accounting of times indicate that this is ten months before Jon snowTargaryen is born. Rhaegar was not present to name Jon, he had died 1-2 months earlier. GRRM has indicated that perhaps Ned named Jon snowTargaryen. At any rate Jon Connington is gone like two months before Lyanna would suspect that she is pregnant, and longer before she tells Rhaegar.

I think Lemore will play an important part with fAegon and Daenerys. By my calculations fAegon and a stillborn girl are born at nearly the same time.

[FittleLinger]

1. The Kingsguard at the ToJ site their vows as reasoning for being at the tower.

2. Rhaegar wouldn't need to divorce his first wife to take a second.

3. Being legitimate does not mean Jon will be king.

Exactly.

I believe he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son but I think he is their bastard. Being illegitimate is completely part of his identity and why readers egage with him. Unveiling him as a prince would completely destroy the character in my opinion. It would be the stuff of fairytales and I don't think Martin writes fairytales. I think Jon is their lovechild with all the complexity that comes from that circumstance.

I am really amazed by people who think that Jon will be all like, "Oh, so my real dad is some dead prince I never knew. This changes everything now, and I will be a different person".

It's not like he is not a LC of the night's watch with his whole family killed, oathbreaker and deserter, dealing with wildlings, with Stannis, and with some psycho marrying his sister and sacking his home, and busy you now, being stabbed by his brothers at that time.

"I'm bored, I will go to Kings landing and try to be king of Westeros now, just for the lulz, and Ned was never my father LOL". Do you really see that?

ETA: There is also the option he is really a bastard. But if that is the case, the clues are pointing us the other way for now.

[MtnLion]

I believe he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son but I think he is their bastard. Being illegitimate is completely part of his identity and why readers egage with him. Unveiling him as a prince would completely destroy the character in my opinion. It would be the stuff of fairytales and I don't think Martin writes fairytales. I think Jon is their lovechild with all the complexity that comes from that circumstance.

You are free to believe what you will. We can lead the horse to water . . . There is only one vow (note that the Kingsguard says "vow") that the Kingsguard swear. That vow is to protect and defend the king. They have other orders, too, if they do not conflict. If Aerys is dead, Rhaegar is king. If Rhaegar is dead, Aegon is king. If Aegon is dead Viserys should be king. That is the logic that Ned uses when he addresses the Kingsguard at the tower. The Kingsguard neither confirm nor deny the presence of the king, but do note that they swore a vow, and thus they give their lives in defending someone or something at the tower. Do you have any ideas? I have only one answer in all of my time dealing with this scene, that Jon is the king. How do we know that Jon was there? The blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice is Jon, and he fills the air with sweetness. Daenerys will need to deal with him eventually.

[Lord Falcon]

This might be compltely wrong but... when Robb made Jon his heir as the King of the North, wouldn't that legitimize Jon?

[HotPie!]

I think you misunderstand. It all depends what seems believable to you. There is a lightmotif in the series that power changes people. Most for the warse. Dany is exceptional in that she manages to hold power but always for the greater good. I don't think many other characters in the book do. Jon is different from Dany. He leads the Night Watch out of a sense of duty, not pleasure. The fact that it is thankless and lacks trappings completely jives with his personality. She donns her "floppy ears" with the full understanding that she does so to fulfill the expectations of others and maintain her authority. Jon completely ignores this need when he takes Donal Noye's former rooms. This is part of his downfall with his brothers but also something that makes him a terrible condidate for king. I don't think Martin wrote him this way to then plunk him on the throne at the end of the series.

[FittleLinger]

This might be compltely wrong but... when Robb made Jon his heir as the King of the North, wouldn't that legitimize Jon?

But the Kingdom of the North doesn't exist. And if it happens to exist - it will be separate from the Iron Throne - that's it's whole point.

[MtnLion]

This might be compltely wrong but... when Robb made Jon his heir as the King of the North, wouldn't that legitimize Jon?

That must be how Robb worded it, that he legitimized Jon as a true born Stark, and named him to succeed him until Bran or Rickon came of age. (This is really a guess, don't add it to the app!)

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I believe he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son but I think he is their bastard. Being illegitimate is completely part of his identity and why readers egage with him. Unveiling him as a prince would completely destroy the character in my opinion.

He wouldn't be a prince since the Targaryrens have been removed from power. He would simply be the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I think it would be worst for Jon to discover he's not Ned's bastard, but Rhaegar's bastard instead.

It would be the stuff of fairytales and I don't think Martin writes fairytales. I think Jon is their lovechild with all the complexity that comes from that circumstance.

I don't think it would be a fairytale.

He would discover that his grandfather(Aerys "The Mad King") killed his other grandfather(Rickard) and uncle(Brandon)...that his father(Rhaegar) was struck down by his Ned's best friend(Robert) for 'stealing' his mother...that his half brother and sister were killed by the Lannisters just like Ned and Robb...that his mother(Lyanna) died giving birth to him...that his uncle(Ned) had to take him on as his bastard to save his life...that he is a true Targaryren...and that he has been living a lie all his life. There is nothing happy about any of that.

And on top of that his true parentage means he is the PTWP that must lead the war against the Others.

I doubt Jon will ever sit the Iron Throne.

[FittleLinger]

I think you misunderstand. It all depends what seems believable to you. There is a lightmotif in the series that power changes people. Most for the warse. Dany is exceptional in that she manages to hold power but always for the greater good. I don't think many other characters in the book do. Jon is different from Dany. He leads the Night Watch out of a sense of duty, not pleasure. The fact that it is thankless and lacks trappings completely jives with his personality. She donns her "floppy ears" with the full understanding that she does so to fulfill the expectations of others and maintain her authority. Jon completely ignores this need when he takes Donal Noye's former rooms. This is part of his downfall with his brothers but also something that makes him a terrible condidate for king. I don't think Martin wrote him this way to then plunk him on the throne at the end of the series.

Three things:

1. We have the exact completely opposite views on Jon's and Dany's rising to power, holding it, and ruler abilities, so on this we will agree to disagree, no need to elaborate on this.

2. I think you really are not reading what people are saying. Most of us said (not once) that we don't believe he will be king, he is not in a situation to be king, he won't care to be king, heck, he doesn't even have a good claim since the Targs are not the ruling dynasty. And yet you keep talking about "Martin won't just put him on the throne". Yes, that's exactly what we are saying. He won't.

3, Regardless of our differences in our views and feelings of what's going on in general, you still haven't presented any in-story and non-meta clue as to why he was not legitimate and was guarded by the KG. And even your meta clues are not convincing, sorry.

[MtnLion]

@LTW Jon may be forced to sit on the Iron Throne, much as he was forced to take the reigns of power in the Night's Watch.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

@LTW Jon may be forced to sit on the Iron Throne, much as he was forced to take the reigns of power in the Night's Watch.

I doubt there will be a Iron Throne at the end of the series, but that's another topic. ;)

[Lord Falcon]

What are the chances of the "Seven Kingdoms' becoming Seven Kingdoms again?

[MtnLion]

1. We have the exact completely opposite views on Jon's and Dany's rising to power, holding it, and ruler abilities, so on this we will agree to disagree, no need to elaborate on this.

Gawd, I can't agree more! Daenerys has completely screwed the pooch, but GRRM hid it so well, when she rules. She is shallow and naive. Jon is the true leader of the two.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

HotPie!, I am not attacking you. I just want to put that out there. You have good points; but following your own logic, Jon can still be legitimate.

[Arya Targaryen]

That must be how Robb worded it, that he legitimized Jon as a true born Stark, and named him to succeed him until Bran or Rickon came of age. (This is really a guess, don't add it to the app!)

I doubt Bran and Rickon is mentioned in the will, since Robb thought they were dead. That was the point of the will in the first place. The only person who was probably mentioned is Sansa - Robb disinherited (? is this the right term? sound weird for me) her, because he didn't want the Lannisters to get Winterfell and the North through her. And he thought Arya is dead, too.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

I have my doubts about your theory.

Do you believe that Aegon is real?

I think he is fake, but if he is real Aegon has the better claim to the IT, because he is older than Jon why should he step aside for Jon? He has made it pretty clear that he wants to rule the 7 Kingdoms so i doubt that he would step aside for his younger half brother.

I don´t know how much Jon Con knows, but Aegon definitly thinks that he´s Rhaegar´s son. He´s Varys and Illyrio´s puppet do you think they just use him to put Jon on the IT? I don´t I think the realvation of Jon beeing a Targ has the potential to mess up their plans.

I am actually not sure if Aegon is real or not. It doesn't matter in my scenario. In my scenario Aegon at least believe he is real. He wins the throne through force, but is accepted as the Targ heir. Once he is wounded, or concerend for his life for some reason or another, he needs an heir. That's where Jon comes in. Aegon won't step aside for Jon, but rather will die leaving the throne to his younger half brother, Jon .

Jon Connington was sent into exile after the Battle of the Bells. Some accounting of times indicate that this is ten months before Jon snowTargaryen is born. Rhaegar was not present to name Jon, he had died 1-2 months earlier. GRRM has indicated that perhaps Ned named Jon snowTargaryen. At any rate Jon Connington is gone like two months before Lyanna would suspect that she is pregnant, and longer before she tells Rhaegar.

I think Lemore will play an important part with fAegon and Daenerys. By my calculations fAegon and a stillborn girl are born at nearly the same time.

I understand it is a bit crackpot, but the timeline is pretty close. 1-2 months, by some calculations is not enough to rule out JonCon's possible knowledge of Jon's identity. Even if he didn't know Lyanna was pregnant Rheagar could have told him his plans on fufilling teh prophecy and that he was trying to impregnate Lyanna. After all the word got back to him about the fall of the Mad King and the tower of joy, knowing Rheagar as well as he did, he could have put it together that the KG were at the Tower to protect the heir, and Ned "stole" him.

I'm not 100% on this by any means, but it isn't SOO far fetched that something along these lines can come to light crowning Jon.

ETA spelling