R+L=J v 37

[HotPie!]

I think it depends if you view the text as a puzzle to be solved then yes your equation of Kingsguard+Summerhall=legitimate is persuasive. But I don't view it that way. The question to me is, what did Martin construct as his system to help us suspend our disbelief? I can't see the point about the Kingsguard as anything but minutia in that light. Because if you grant that, then you have to say that Dany's vision in the house of the undying can't be the red wedding because they're eating the wrong food. I don't see Martin laying out perfect puzzle pieces. I think he gives us a huge range of forshadowing (or reverseshadowing) and some lead down the correct path while others don't. I don't think that anyone can unequivically argue that Jon is legit until the book gives some more obvious evidence, sorry.

[MtnLion]

I doubt there will be a Iron Throne at the end of the series, but that's another topic. ;)

Well, yes and no. I like the screenplay's HotU visions. Not canon, but I think they mean something in particular. Daenerys enters the throne room, which is in ruins and snow is coming in. She approaches the Iron Throne and sees the snow on it, and reaches but does not disturb the snow sitting on it.

[Arya Targaryen]

Gawd, I can't agree more! Daenerys has completely screwed the pooch, but GRRM hid it so well, when she rules. She is shallow and naive. Jon is the true leader of the two.

+1

I think Jon is being set up to rule the North, but he will never sit the IT (and I think he is legitimate R+L) - He would make an excellent King in the North, but in the south he is more likely to screw things up.

[MtnLion]

I doubt Bran and Rickon is mentioned in the will, since Robb thought they were dead. That was the point of the will in the first place. The only person who was probably mentioned is Sansa - Robb disinherited (? is this the right term? sound weird for me) her, because he didn't want the Lannisters to get Winterfell and the North through her. And he thought Arya is dead, too.

Excellent point.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

What are the chances of the "Seven Kingdoms' becoming Seven Kingdoms again?

The only reason the Targrayrens were able to forge the "Seven Kingdoms" into one was through the use of dragons. Even then, Dorne held firm against them for a very long period of time. Without weapons of mass destruction it is nearly impossible to hold the "Seven Kingdoms" as one, especially after the "War of the Five Kings".

Sure, we have dragons once again, but I still don't see the Iron Throne surviving the coming war. That's just my opinion.

[Queen of Procrastination]

@ Hot Pie! Maybe you should read some of the older R+L=J threads not all of them the last 3 pages of R+L=J v.36 focussed on the the thinks you wrote and clarified the thinks many of the things the R+L=J believers believe in. It states for example why whe believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

@LTW Jon may be forced to sit on the Iron Throne, much as he was forced to take the reigns of power in the Night's Watch.

I hope this will not happen.

[MtnLion]

I think it depends if you view the text as a puzzle to be solved then yes your equation of Kingsguard+Summerhall=legitimate is persuasive. But I don't view it that way. The question to me is, what did Martin construct as his system to help us suspend our disbelief? I can't see the point about the Kingsguard as anything but minutia in that light. Because if you grant that, then you have to say that Dany's vision in the house of the undying can't be the red wedding because they're eating the wrong food. I don't see Martin laying out perfect puzzle pieces. I think he gives us a huge range of forshadowing (or reverseshadowing) and some lead down the correct path while others don't. I don't think that anyone can unequivically argue that Jon is legit until the book gives some more obvious evidence, sorry.

Are we dealing with people that make nonsensical decisions or do nonsensical actions, or has GRRM contrived a world where the thoughts and actions of th4e characters are believable?

[HotPie!]

I actually have and I agree that R+L=J but I still think he's their shameful lovechild.

[MtnLion]

I hope this will not happen.

Would that make it a bittersweet ending for you?

[FittleLinger]

I think it depends if you view the text as a puzzle to be solved then yes your equation of Kingsguard+Summerhall=legitimate is persuasive. But I don't view it that way. The question to me is, what did Martin construct as his system to help us suspend our disbelief? I can't see the point about the Kingsguard as anything but minutia in that light. Because if you grant that, then you have to say that Dany's vision in the house of the undying can't be the red wedding because they're eating the wrong food. I don't see Martin laying out perfect puzzle pieces. I think he gives us a huge range of forshadowing (or reverseshadowing) and some lead down the correct path while others don't. I don't think that anyone can unequivically argue that Jon is legit until the book gives some more obvious evidence, sorry.

Well there is such a theory (about it not being the RW haha), but yeah, I see what you are saying, but I disagree.

You cannot compare visions and prophecies with actual events. The former two are ambigous on purpose, the latter are logical and not random. Don't forget Martin is a historical fiction fanatic. He would give us some inadequate steps in the war that led to all events? And what is Jon's parentage if not a puzzle? You say you're ok with the other parts of the puzzle, but the KG in particular is not? How and why is that?

And if Jon turns out to be a bastard (and if no other proof towards that being right is given), when Martin gets asked why were they guarding, what will he say? "I don't know LOL, the vision in the Undying showed different food too?".

[HotPie!]

If he says "LOL" aloud my opinion of him will drop, so I hope not.

[HotPie!]

"You cannot compare visions and prophecies with actual events. The former two are ambigous on purpose, the latter are logical and not random."

But wasn't the whole Kingsguard thing revealed in Ned's dream. How is a dream more legitimate than a vision?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Well, yes and no. I like the screenplay's HotU visions. Not canon, but I think they mean something in particular. Daenerys enters the throne room, which is in ruins and snow is coming in. She approaches the Iron Throne and sees the snow on it, and reaches but does not disturb the snow sitting on it.

I don't take the show as canon, but for the sake of discussion:

I see where you are going with this, but I interpreted that scene differently. Dany approaches the Iron Throne--I feel she will come for the throne eventually, reaches out but does not disturb the snow sitting on it--I feel that scene showed that Dany will never get the throne because there is a bigger threat that will destroy the idea of the Iron Throne, and that threat is 'Winter' and everything that comes with it.

For all we know, Jon may one day sit the Iron Throne, but I would hate to see him in that cesspool of lies and corruption. Unless he can somehow "scour that court clean" as another claimant plans to do.

[Queen of Procrastination]

Would that make it a bittersweet ending for you?

Well don´t know maybe a bit. It´s good if he´s a life that´s happy enough for me, there are some characters for which I hope that they will have a really happy ending and I doubt Jon would like sitting on the IT (or a new throne) I would prefer him as King in the North or as 1000th LC of the NW. Besides I want Dany to sit on the IT (or the new throne). I am a huge Dany fan and want he to be queen :)

[MtnLion]

Are we dealing with people that make nonsensical decisions or do nonsensical actions, or has GRRM contrived a world where the thoughts and actions of th4e characters are believable?

He would give us some inadequate steps in the war that led to all events? And what is Jon's parentage if not a puzzle? You say you're ok with the other parts of the puzzle, but the KG in particular is not? How and why is that?

And if Jon turns out to be a bastard (and if no other proof towards that being right is given), when Martin gets asked why were they guarding, what will he say? "I don't know LOL, the vision in the Undying showed different food too?".

If he says "LOL" aloud my opinion of him will drop, so I hope not.

Do you have any other answers to our questions, or are you basing your argument on visceral reactions?

[FittleLinger]

"You cannot compare visions and prophecies with actual events. The former two are ambigous on purpose, the latter are logical and not random."

But wasn't the whole Kingsguard thing revealed in Ned's dream. How is a dream more legitimate than a vision?

The dream was remembering real events. Even one of the first sentences were "He dreamt bla bla bla bla, just like it had happened". We have it confirmed on numerous accounts by numerous characters and GRRM himself. These things happened. Were you suggesting that maybe Ned was remembering the real events of the Tower of Joy, but in reality, there were no kingsguard there?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

But wasn't the whole Kingsguard thing revealed in Ned's dream. How is a dream more legitimate than a vision?

The visions are meant to predict things that will come while Ned's dream is a recollection of a past event.

[HotPie!]

I think my point is essentially this, I'm not looking to solve a problem while reading these books. I think the enigma codes that Martins spinkles throughout the novel are what make it enjoyable reading and what make sites like this enjoyable. They create discussion but if you go into that discussion expecting a single winner, you're not really having a discussion but rather a debate. I'm not so much into debating I just like discussing literature. And yes, visceral reactions are part of discussing literature. I'm a big believer in the whole "Death of the Author" thing so I actually like it when people have different readings to mine. So, no, I still don't think the same as you because the code you cite isn't enough evidence for me. The Lyanna and Rhaegar as Jon's parents has many, many pieces of evidence to prove it, the legitimacy piece has only one so I'm not convinced.

[A Redeemed Hound]

those who believe in this theory believe it and those who dont will never be convinced.. so instead of more debating lets put the topic to vote and end it for once :fencing:

I say let it keep going and end on its own momentum. What the hell else am I going to do for the next five years until TWoW is finished?!?!?!?! :bang:

[Queen of Procrastination]

I think my point is essentially this, I'm not looking to solve a problem while reading these books. I think the enigma codes that Martins spinkles throughout the novel are what make it enjoyable reading and what make sites like this enjoyable. They create discussion but if you go into that discussion expecting a single winner, you're not really having a discussion but rather a debate. I'm not so much into debating I just like discussing literature. And yes, visceral reactions are part of discussing literature. I'm a big believer in the whole "Death of the Author" thing so I actually like it when people have different readings to mine. So, no, I still don't think the same as you because the code you cite isn't enough evidence for me. The Lyanna and Rhaegar as Jon's parents has many, many pieces of evidence to prove it, the legitimacy piece has only one so I'm not convinced.

So let´s say that you have your opinion and we have ours, you can not convience us and we can not conwience you makes no sense to discuss it further and to try to convience you. GRRM will prove one of us wrong in time.

I say let it keep going and end on its own momentum. What the hell else am I going to do for the next five years until TWoW is finished?!?!?!?! :bang:

I am asking myself the same thing.