R+L=J v 37

[Erudain]

I say let it keep going and end on its own momentum. What the hell else am I going to do for the next five years until TWoW is finished?!?!?!?! :bang:

five years????? the others take you!!!!!!

[FittleLinger]

I think my point is essentially this, I'm not looking to solve a problem while reading these books. I think the enigma codes that Martins spinkles throughout the novel are what make it enjoyable reading and what make sites like this enjoyable. They create discussion but if you go into that discussion expecting a single winner, you're not really having a discussion but rather a debate. I'm not so much into debating I just like discussing literature. And yes, visceral reactions are part of discussing literature. I'm a big believer in the whole "Death of the Author" thing so I actually like it when people have different readings to mine. So, no, I still don't think the same as you because the code you cite isn't enough evidence for me. The Lyanna and Rhaegar as Jon's parents has many, many pieces of evidence to prove it, the legitimacy piece has only one so I'm not convinced.

My problem is that meta discussing, although sometimes useful, can't lead us nowhere in such a discussion (he is either legitimate or not, right?). I see you want him to be illegitimate, but that's not the same as discussing whether or not he is.

For example - you could say something like "Maybe they were so loyal to Rhaegar and he ordered them to preserve the prophesized prince, who Rhaegar thought Jon was" (here, I am doing it for you). Or open a tangential discussion not looking for a specific answer (What would happen if Jon is legit, or illegit, regardless of the truth?). But here yeah, we're trying to solve a puzzle, and are presenting legitimate facts that can be a solid ground for discussion, and you're basically saying, "No, cause I don't feel like it".

[Queen of Procrastination]

five years????? the others take you!!!!!!

Well I doubt that TWoW will appear befor 2015 :(

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I think my point is essentially this, I'm not looking to solve a problem while reading these books.I think the enigma codes that Martins spinkles throughout the novel are what make it enjoyable reading and what make sites like this enjoyable.

I agree.

They create discussion but if you go into that discussion expecting a single winner, you're not really having a discussion but rather a debate. I'm not so much into debating I just like discussing literature.

I agree, and I argue this point often. The problem here is that you came to the R+L=J thread claiming that Jon was a bastard. You didn't provide a basis for this idea, nor did you come to discuss his legitimacy.

And yes, visceral reactions are part of discussing literature. I'm a big believer in the whole "Death of the Author" thing so I actually like it when people have different readings to mine. So, no, I still don't think the same as you because the code you cite isn't enough evidence for me. The Lyanna and Rhaegar as Jon's parents has many, many pieces of evidence to prove it, the legitimacy piece has only one so I'm not convinced.

To each their own.

[A Redeemed Hound]

So let´s say that you have your opinion and we have ours, you can not convience us and we can not conwience you makes no sense to discuss it further and to try to convience you. GRRM will prove one of us wrong in time.

I am asking myself the same thing.

I bet GRRM proves us all wrong and it's Ned + some fishmonger woman ala DwD = Jon Snow.

[Queen of Procrastination]

I bet GRRM proves us all wrong and it's Ned + some fishmonger woman ala DwD = Jon Snow.

What would be the use of all the R+L=J hints then?

[Erudain]

Well I doubt that TWoW will appear befor 2015 :(

Well thats 2-3 years not 5 :P

[Queen of Procrastination]

Well thats 2-3 years not 5 :P

Math has never been my best subject ;)

I think 2015 is realistic, 5 years from Dance. Hopeful it will not take GRRM longer.

[MtnLion]

Problem with GRRM's scheduling is that the Dangerous Women was supposed to be released last year. Still don't see it popping up. Then he is working on the concordance with Elio and Linda, and the app with Elio and Linda. He needs to finish up some projects before he starts The Winds of Winter in earnest. Then, when he is finishing up, it needs to be small enough to fit in a single publication so that he doesn't end up duplicating the FfC/DwD fiasco.

[Budj]

Of course Jon won't sit the Iron Throne. It will be demolished before the end of the story and he will make Castle Black his seat of power in the North. He may be part Targ but he is a Northman to the bone.

That leaves room for Rickon to be lord of Winterfell (there has to be a reason he is still kicking around) and Jon a King of Winter ;)

[The guy from the Vale]

That leaves room for Rickon to be lord of Winterfell (there has to be a reason he is still kicking around) and Jon a King of Winter ;)

Sadly, I don't think I agree. Martin told us from the very start that Rickon's story would be going nowhere: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShaggyDogStory

[FittleLinger]

Sadly, I don't think I agree. Martin told us from the very start that Rickon's story would be going nowhere: http://tvtropes.org/.../ShaggyDogStory

Damn it, damn it, damn it. I could actually see it in a cruel Martin-kind of way. So, Davos goes to Skagos and Rickon is eaten by cannibals. Because Shaggydog wasn't Shaggy enough :D

Or... maybe Martin is pulling his trademark reverse-trope and Rickon will be the key for the North's rising. A time for wolves? I don't know, we'll see.

[ckal]

I just came across this reading through some So Spake Martin:

(7) TREBLA COMMENT OF R&L THEORY TO PARRIS: Trebla proceeded to talk about the R&L theory and how he believes it, hoping for a tidbit.

HER REPLY (paraphrasing): Do you really think George would do something so basic as Jon being the son of R&L? *Trebla's jaw dropping open*

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I just came across this reading through some So Spake Martin:

(7) TREBLA COMMENT OF R&L THEORY TO PARRIS: Trebla proceeded to talk about the R&L theory and how he believes it, hoping for a tidbit.

HER REPLY (paraphrasing): Do you really think George would do something so basic as Jon being the son of R&L? *Trebla's jaw dropping open*

I think the key word here is "paraphrasing."

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

those who believe in this theory believe it and those who dont will never be convinced.. so instead of more debating lets put the topic to vote and end it for once :fencing:

I say let it keep going and end on its own momentum. What the hell else am I going to do for the next five years until TWoW is finished?!?!?!?! :bang:

There are a few people that haven't made up their minds, & others that are open to being wrong about what they believe. Anyway debate is usually fun.

[ckal]

I think the key word here is "paraphrasing."

Regardless of 'paraphrasing,' the overall message remains the same.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Regardless of 'paraphrasing,' the overall message remains the same.

And R+L=J is still true. You think this is something she'd actually confirm?

[ckal]

And R+L=J is still true. You think this is something she'd actually confirm?

Where was this confirmed? I'm more inclined to believe this statement as it is along the lines of what I expect from GRRM.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Where was this confirmed? I'm more inclined to believe this statement as it is along the lines of what I expect from GRRM.

It's all but confirmed in the pile of thematic and circumstantial evidence in the story and the complete lack of a logical alternative that fits the parameters of time, motives, locations, etc. that we're given. My point was, even if it is true, do you honestly expect Parris to be like, "Oh yeah, Jon is their son, good for figuring it out"? Hell no. Why the hell do you think this is something that'd be confirmed or even encouraged in a bloody fan Q&A — arguably the single biggest mystery of the entire series? Come on.

And there's already been something similar — someone asked if Littlefinger was telling the truth to Sansa about working with the Tyrells to kill Joffrey. GRRM said something like, "Would Littlefinger lie?" Everyone flipped shit and went all, "Omgz Littlefinger would totally lie, that must mean someone else killed Joffrey!" Then lo and behold the World of Ice and Fire app is released and confirmed what the evidence suggested all along: Littlefinger and the Tyrells worked to have Joffrey assassinated.

So in terms of the question, "Would George do something that basic?", the answer is, "Uh, yeah." Just like Littlefinger would lie, but didn't about Joffrey's death.

I "expect" GRRM to not be a hack and/or troll.

This also completely ignores the paraphrasing, which, as paraphrasing usually does, probably leaves out some other detail or nuance that would help to flesh out Parris' answer.

[Dragonfish]

I just came across this reading through some So Spake Martin:

(7) TREBLA COMMENT OF R&L THEORY TO PARRIS: Trebla proceeded to talk about the R&L theory and how he believes it, hoping for a tidbit.

HER REPLY (paraphrasing): Do you really think George would do something so basic as Jon being the son of R&L? *Trebla's jaw dropping open*

Notice that she doesn't actually confirm or deny the theory. She simply asks if people think George would do something so basic, thereby planting the idea in people's heads that she's denying the theory without actually denying it. It's a classic maneuver for avoiding the issue without seeming to avoid it.