R+L=J v 37

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Well...Brandon is there too, & he never made it to Lord.

[Lady_wolf]

Thank you.

Maybe he considers his late brother the rightful heir to Winterfel and therefor worthy of a statue?

Out of honor for their rightful positions ànd the love he had for them.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

Well...Brandon is there too, & he never made it to Lord.

Well technically, if Rickard dies before he did, even just moments before, he WAS Lord of Winterfell even if only for a few seconds. (Shutters thinking about their deaths)

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Point made.

[FittleLinger]

Well technically, if Rickard dies before he did, even just moments before, he WAS Lord of Winterfell even if only for a few seconds. (Shutters thinking about their deaths)

But by all accounts, Brandon strangled himself before Rickard burned.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

Ah ok, got your point now :).

Uhn, I'm not sure about Aegon being the one to name Jon his heir. If we get Howland Reed and Wylla to prove that Jon is a legit Targ, Aegon naming him or not will make no difference because Jon would be (erh, have the right to be) king anyway. Unless Aegon has some kids.

Winds can't come soon enough!

I know! Even 5 minutes from now would be too long to wait!

That is the thing though, Howland Reed knows the truth but who teh hell is Howland Reed? Why should the south listen to a frog eating cragnoman? Nobody seems to respect them. He will serve to tell Jon is true parantage, and Jon would believe him. Nobody else would. It would have to be Aegon. If Aegon somehow uncovers the truth, and is excited to have a half brother, he could leav a royal decree, prior to his death, stating Jon is his younger half brother and he is heir to the throne. That is one of the only ways southern lords would accept the Bastard of Winterfell as a true Targ heir.

Maybe it doesn't come from JonCon, maybe once Aegon gets the throne, secrate Targ supporters come out of the woodwork who knew about Lyanna and Rheagar, and they trace it back to Jon.

Oh and I'm no way convinced of my above theory, I was mearly stating a plausable way for Jon to legally inherit the throne, besided conquest. It would be crazy if Jon learns that the stands to inherit two Kingdoms. It would be a nice tie up at the end to reunite the realm. That is some list of titles King Jon Targaryan, The first of his name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, King in the North and Lord Commander of what was the Nights Watch.

I know I know, too happy of an ending. The Realm will be seperated and because of my happy thoughts GRRM will kill a Stark!

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

But by all accounts, Brandon strangled himself before Rickard burned.

I thought it was while he was burning. You are probably right. But I can still fix my buddies theory ..

Brandon was a warg, and warged into Rickard before he died, making him lord. :lol:

Seriously though, I think Ned just made them the statues because he loved them and was Lord of Winterfell and could do whatever the hell he wanted.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I know! Even 5 minutes from now would be too long to wait!

That is the thing though, Howland Reed knows the truth but who teh hell is Howland Reed? Why should the south listen to a frog eating cragnoman? Nobody seems to respect them. He will serve to tell Jon is true parantage, and Jon would believe him. Nobody else would. It would have to be Aegon. If Aegon somehow uncovers the truth, and is excited to have a half brother, he could leav a royal decree, prior to his death, stating Jon is his younger half brother and he is heir to the throne. That is one of the only ways southern lords would accept the Bastard of Winterfell as a true Targ heir.

Maybe it doesn't come from JonCon, maybe once Aegon gets the throne, secrate Targ supporters come out of the woodwork who knew about Lyanna and Rheagar, and they trace it back to Jon.

Oh and I'm no way convinced of my above theory, I was mearly stating a plausable way for Jon to legally inherit the throne, besided conquest. It would be crazy if Jon learns that the stands to inherit two Kingdoms. It would be a nice tie up at the end to reunite the realm. That is some list of titles King Jon Targaryan, The first of his name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, King in the North and Lord Commander of what was the Nights Watch.

I know I know, too happy of an ending. The Realm will be seperated and because of my happy thoughts GRRM will kill a Stark!

I think there must be some evidence, documents, witnesses (Wylla, midwives, a Maester, Silent Sisters, maybe a Septon, other servants.), objects of significance, something!

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

I think there must be some evidence, documents, witnesses (Wylla, midwives, a Maester, Silent Sisters, maybe a Septon, other servants.), objects of significance, something!

Exactly, I mean Ned took down the tower, but he didn't burn the villiage as he headed to Dorn, not to my knowledge anyway. He doesn't seem the type to kill all witnesses. He didn't even necesarily come in contact with everybody who knew she was pregnant.

[Jon Icefyre]

I'd argue Robert was seated on the Iron Throne because he won it by force. IMO, Robert used his Targaryen lineage to further solidify his claim to the throne, but once he took power, it instantly became a Baratheon dynasty, not a continuation of the Targaryen (I don't think you're arguing this point, but just wanted to clarify). We know Robert was very skilled at turning enemies into friends, and I'm sure referencing his targ descent was a tactic to bring the Targaryen loyalists over to his side more quickly.

While Robert had an extreme view of the remaining targs (killing the last of the dragon spawn), in theory he had the right of it. As long as there were Targaryen heirs, that meant there was a dynasty not far removed that could challenge his rule (should the people of Westeros start supporting them again)...

Well Robert was definitely worried that the people of Westeros would choose to follow a Targ King again. In his first conversation with Ned in GOT about killing Dany because she married Khal Drogo Ned insists that Robert is being too paranoid to which Robert responds with something along the lines of, "There are still those in the seven kingdoms who call me Usurper, If the Targaryen boy crosses with a Dothraki Horde at his back the scum will join him." Which I think speaks volumes about the confidence or lack there of that Robert had concerning his hold over the realm, and the realm's opinion of his right to rule as the true king in Robert's eyes.

So if he's that paranoid about a Targ exile across the narrow sea gaining support from Westeros, can you imagine his fear/rage if he knew or discovered the truth about Jon, a living male heir of Rhaegar in Westeros who also happens to be the nephew of the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North?

[Queen of Procrastination]

Well Robert was definitely worried that the people of Westeros would choose to follow a Targ King again. In his first conversation with Ned in GOT about killing Dany because she married Khal Drogo Ned insists that Robert is being too paranoid to which Robert responds with something along the lines of "There are still those in the seven kingdoms who call me Usurper, If the Targaryen boy crosses with a Dothraki Horde at his back the scum will join him." Which I think speaks volumes about the confidence or lack there of that Robert had concerning his hold over the realm, and the realms opinion of his right to rule as the true king in Robert's eyes.

So if he's that paranoid about a Targ exile across the narrow sea gaining support from Westeros, can you imagine his fear/rage if he knew or discovered the truth about Jon, a living male heir of Rhaegar in Westeros who also happens to be the nephew of the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North?

Right imagine a war between Robert and a Targ. The Stormlands would surpport Robert.

Dorne would definitly support a Targaryen.

I´ve read somewhere that many Lords in the Crownlands weren´t happy with a Baratheon as King (can somebody confirm this?). Maybe some of them would also side with a Targaryen.

The Lannister´s a tied to the Baratheons by marriage, but Tywin is a pragmatist so the support from the Westerlands is not for sure.

If the Targ were a nephew of Lord Eddard and Lyanna´s son the North would probably also follow him and maybe the Riverlands, too because Tully and Stark are tied by marriage.

The Tyrells would follow a Targaryen I he would wed Margery ;)

So Robert would definitly loose, better kill off all Targs before they can trouble you.

Btw: Does someone know why House Tyrell sided with the Targaryens during Robert´s rebillion?

[J. Stargaryen]

Speaking of interviews that relate to R+L=J, here are the relevant excerpts from one Sean Bean did with Vulture.com in June of 2011: http://www.vulture.c...ext_for_ga.html

[interviewer] But he is calculating, in at least one matter: Jon Snow’s parentage. When it comes to Jon Snow’s mother, Ned is extremely tight-lipped, save for his one terse comment to King Robert. The fandom is teeming with theories that Jon isn’t Ned’s bastard at all.

[sean Bean] That’s another twist [to come]. It’s a great conundrum. Who do you think it is?

[interviewer] My money’s on the mother being Ned’s dead sister and the father being Rhaegar Targaryen. If Ned swore to protect his dead sister’s son from his own best friend, the best way of doing that would have been to claim him as his own and take him in.

[sean Bean] Ned really knows who [Jon’s parents are], but he can’t let on. That’s why it’s such a moving moment, those poignant scenes I have with Kit Harington [who plays Jon], because I couldn’t say what I really thought. There are so many things I could have said, because there is a love there between the two of them, but I can’t express it as overtly as I can with the other children, who I can hold and kiss. Even if I were his true father, I can’t talk about it for fear of offending my wife, who’s really bitter about this. So it’s really a cruel situation. Through no fault of his own, Ned took on a lot by taking Jon in.

I imagine it has been discussed around these parts before, but it doesn't seem to get mentioned very often.

[Jon Icefyre]

Right imagine a war between Robert and a Targ. The Stormlands would surpport Robert.

Dorne would definitly support a Targaryen.

I´ve read somewhere that many Lords in the Crownlands weren´t happy with a Baratheon as King (can somebody confirm this?). Maybe some of them would also side with a Targaryen.

The Lannister´s a tied to the Baratheons by marriage, but Tywin is a pragmatist so the support from the Westerlands is not for sure.

If the Targ were a nephew of Lord Eddard and Lyanna´s son the North would probably also follow him and maybe the Riverlands, too because Tully and Stark are tied by marriage.

The Tyrells would follow a Targaryen I he would wed Margery ;)

So Robert would definitly loose, better kill off all Targs before they can trouble you.

Btw: Does someone know why House Tyrell sided with the Targaryens during Robert´s rebillion?

House Tyrell used to be just stewards to House Gardener unitl Aegon l made the Tyrells overlords of the Reach and wardens of the south. Then King Daeron l gave them control over Dorne for a time during his invasion of Dorne, so the Targs have always been good to House Tyrell(in fact some think too good), and I too remember reading somewhere that most of the Crownlands were still fiercely loyal to House Targaryen in secrete.

[The guy from the Vale]

Right imagine a war between Robert and a Targ. The Stormlands would surpport Robert.

Dorne would definitly support a Targaryen.

I´ve read somewhere that many Lords in the Crownlands weren´t happy with a Baratheon as King (can somebody confirm this?). Maybe some of them would also side with a Targaryen.

The Lannister´s a tied to the Baratheons by marriage, but Tywin is a pragmatist so the support from the Westerlands is not for sure.

If the Targ were a nephew of Lord Eddard and Lyanna´s son the North would probably also follow him and maybe the Riverlands, too because Tully and Stark are tied by marriage.

The Tyrells would follow a Targaryen I he would wed Margery ;)

So Robert would definitly loose, better kill off all Targs before they can trouble you.

Btw: Does someone know why House Tyrell sided with the Targaryens during Robert´s rebillion?

The Tyrells were semi-loyal to the Targaryens. They fought Robert at Ashford, then continued to lay siege on Storm's End. However, they did not support Aerys on the Trident, citing the siege of SE as the main reason for doing so. So they nominally still supported Aerys, but tried to be as non-committal as possible.

[J. Stargaryen]

The Tyrells were semi-loyal to the Targaryens. They fought Robert at Ashford, then continued to lay siege on Storm's End. However, they did not support Aerys on the Trident, citing the siege of SE as the main reason for doing so. So they nominally still supported Aerys, but tried to be as non-committal as possible.

Right imagine a war between Robert and a Targ. The Stormlands would surpport Robert.

Dorne would definitly support a Targaryen.

I´ve read somewhere that many Lords in the Crownlands weren´t happy with a Baratheon as King (can somebody confirm this?). Maybe some of them would also side with a Targaryen.

The Lannister´s a tied to the Baratheons by marriage, but Tywin is a pragmatist so the support from the Westerlands is not for sure.

If the Targ were a nephew of Lord Eddard and Lyanna´s son the North would probably also follow him and maybe the Riverlands, too because Tully and Stark are tied by marriage.

The Tyrells would follow a Targaryen I he would wed Margery ;)

So Robert would definitly loose, better kill off all Targs before they can trouble you.

Btw: Does someone know why House Tyrell sided with the Targaryens during Robert´s rebillion?

The idea of a marriage alliance between Jon Snow and Margaery Tyrell seems plausible to me. GRRM has had a little fun with Margaery, making her a queen to three kings, but a lover to none. Her first two marriages ended in death, and we have a prophecy that Tommen will die too. If he does die, or is taken out of the picture via the incest/bastardy angle, we'd have a maiden queen belonging to the most powerful house in Westeros. Since she is the queen consort she cannot inherit the throne, but the most powerful house in the kingdom is not just going to give up its claim. Margaery can't rule, but her children can. That means the Tyrells will have to find another king for her to marry. You know what they say, practice makes perfect; enter Jon Snow.

Why would Jon and Margaery marry? Maybe to fight the Others, or Dany, or (f)Aegon. Or maybe just to reunite the realm, which is exactly what would happen if the King in the North married the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. The Tyrells would marry Margaery off to the person who could bring the most to the table. Frankly, I don't see what anyone else could bring that would be more valuable than the North(ern half of what you call your kingdom).

But the North wants independence! I believe that. I do. It's just that I also believe the North will respect Robb's will, and the will made Jon their king, as well as a legitimized Stark. I think the North would gladly bend the knee to the Iron Throne if Jon was sitting on it.

A couple of other notes: Funny, but Jon's Targaryen heritage need not enter into this political equation. It very well could, but it doesn't have to. Being King in the North would bring enough political clout. Also, a while back I predicted that Jon Snow would take the blue winter rose for his sigil, and Old-Growth pointed out that could pit the blue rose of Jon versus the gold rose of House Tyrell (instead of the white vs. the red, as in the War of the Roses), which I thought was interesting. Instead of that, what if Jon and Margaery used the Tyrell sigil, but with different colors. Oh, I don't know, maybe a blue rose. ;)

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Why do people keep saying Jon wouldnt want to be king?

I see the opposite when I read. Throughout the books you can tell he wants to go south and fight. He helps Stannis regardless of his vows to take no part. He WANTED to rule Winterfell but didnt want it from Stannis and his terms. He has had an identity crisis from day one and realizes the NW isnt his calling/destiny; the Others are.

After the others are gone and the wall is down, Jon will gladly accept the throne once...

1) He finds out about R+L

2) He finds out about Bran and Rickon

3) The other lords recognize him as the last of the Targ dynasty and offer him the throne for his valor with the others in combonation with his bloodline

People who say knowone will believe he is who he says he is and that they cant prove it...

(Though you are correct) All it will take is Howland and Lyanna's wetnurse to tell the tale. Once that happens people will get it. Ned wouldnt father a bastard because of his honor. That explains why the kingsguard were there and why Lyanna died. The timeline for the story adds up. Etc...

So IMO...unless Jon dies, he will be King.

Want to? Heavens no. But he would do it for the people. He understands duty and honor better than anyone currently living.

IMO, Jon's character is too strongly tied to the North--emotionally and physically--to become the king of Westeros.

His actions throughout the series prove this. He ignores the political games at Castle Black because he knows there is a greater threat...he is willing to leave Castle Black even with the great threat that his looming to save 'Arya' and Winterfell...he was willing to forsake his vows to avenge his father and stand by his brother...and he refuses Stannis' offer to take Winterfell because of an emotional connection he has for the castle. If it was just about a seat and a title, Jon would have taken the offer.

[Ribupr]

IMO, Jon's character is too strongly tied to the North--emotionally and physically--to become the king of Westeros.

His actions throughout the series prove this. He ignores the political games at Castle Black because he knows there is a greater threat...he is willing to leave Castle Black even with the great threat that his looming to save 'Arya' and Winterfell...he was willing to forsake his vows to avenge his father and stand by his brother...and he refuses Stannis' offer to take Winterfell because of an emotional connection he has for the castle. If it was just about a seat and a title, Jon would have taken the offer.

Yes he gas chosen to stay out of it (mostly), but only because of the others. He knows they are the true enemy so he will help with that. But IMO he WANTS to be south playing the game if thrones, or rule a castle. Its completly obvious he doesnt want to be in the watch, but he does accept it and devote himself to it.

But when the wall is down, the NW is gone, and the others are defeated...he will happily leave and do something else. IMO he will accept kingship gladly.

[Jon Icefyre]

Yes he gas chosen to stay out of it (mostly), but only because of the others. He knows they are the true enemy so he will help with that. But IMO he WANTS to be south playing the game if thrones, or rule a castle. Its completly obvious he doesnt want to be in the watch, but he does accept it and devote himself to it.

But when the wall is down, the NW is gone, and the others are defeated...he will happily leave and do something else. IMO he will accept kingship gladly.

Although I think Jon will end up staying in the north, and I would much rather see him as the Targaryen King Of The North instead of sitting on the Irone throne. I don't think it's fair at all to say that Jon will always be all Stark in his heart and that he will always choose the north and his Stark heritage over anything. That way of thinking is extremely one sided, the reason Jon loves the north and his Stark blood so much is because that's all Jon knows he never knew his other side, his other family, his other ancestors. Ned Stark hid that from him and it's clear that Jon wanted to know about it since he's always thinking about who is mother is and what type of person she was(the irony is his mother happens to be a Stark).

Once Jon finds out he's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen(who seems to be held in this legendary status by most) and that he is the blood of Old Valyria, a living descendent of dragon kings who's to say he won't rejoice with not only surprise but relief as to the entirety of his bloodline, the boy everyone thought to be a bastard is actually the blood of royalty north and south. He's loves the Starks so much because they're his family the only one he knows, that's the type of person he his and was raised to be. Who's to say he won't put that exact way of thinking into his Targaryen lineage after all not every Targaryen was Aerys ll there were some pretty epic Targs in the history of Westeros including a man Jon was very fond of Maester Aemon.

I don't like the idea of Jon going south to rule, but I certainly would put it out of the realm of possibility maybe he'll feel he has to redeem his father's actions who risked so much for him. Maybe he'll feel obligated to restore glory to his Targ family name hopefully he chooses to do this as The King Of the North but who's to say he won't do this on the Iron throne? It's just too early to rule out one or the other right now...We just have to get a bit more of feel based on Jon's response to who he really is.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Yes he gas chosen to stay out of it (mostly), but only because of the others. He knows they are the true enemy so he will help with that. But IMO he WANTS to be south playing the game if thrones, or rule a castle. Its completly obvious he doesnt want to be in the watch, but he does accept it and devote himself to it.

But when the wall is down, the NW is gone, and the others are defeated...he will happily leave and do something else. IMO he will accept kingship gladly.

We can agree to disagree. :cheers:

[SFDanny]

Yes he gas chosen to stay out of it (mostly), but only because of the others. He knows they are the true enemy so he will help with that. But IMO he WANTS to be south playing the game if thrones, or rule a castle. Its completly obvious he doesnt want to be in the watch, but he does accept it and devote himself to it.

If Jon wasn't tempted to leave his decision to stay would mean nothing. I expect the temptations to get greater and greater and the resolve to end up being the same.

But when the wall is down

Has nothing to do with Jon's oath or his responsibility to shield the realms of men.

the NW is gone,

As long as he is alive, even if he was once dead, his responsibility to the Watch and its Oath remain.

and the others are defeated

How will he know the Others are defeated permanently? They were thought to be destroyed thousands of years ago and yet they have come back. What kind of victory would mean that he could lay aside his oath and be sure his responsibility is no longer necessary? I don't see how he gets to that point.

...he will happily leave and do something else. IMO he will accept kingship gladly.

Jon's happiness doesn't look to be the ending we are headed towards, imo. His death, maybe, or his inability to accept other roads that would be easier, and yes, happier, because of his vows, look much more likely as an ending than that. I've argued for many years that Jon is likely the rightful heir to the Targaryen throne, and I think that is still likely, but I've never believed that means he will actually be crowned king. That's Martin's twist. The hidden prince who saves humanity, but can't sit the throne. Arthur without Camelot.