R+L=J v 37

[J. Stargaryen]

On the possibility of the blue rose vs. the gold: it occurred to me that your idea about the blue rose sigil would allow Martin to bring in his background material about the War of the Roses in a more explicit way without copying the actual historical events. Of course, we already have Stark (York) vs. Lannister (Lancaster). In any event, I'm pleased someone thought the idea interesting.

Not only is it interesting, it fits like a glove thematically. If the Jon Snow sigil prediction turns out to be correct I completely expect a Jon-House Tyrell storyline to follow. Two rose sigils in a story based on the Wars of the Roses would mean something. Very nice catch.

On possibility of a Jon-Margaery marriage, that could produce what Mace wants, vis. a grandson on the Iron Throne. And I agree that most of the North would accept Jon as King and return to the fold, even if it were to become known that Jon is Lyanna's son rather than Eddard's son. "It was the dragons we married": what better than one who is also half Stark?

Something I mentioned earlier is Jon's Targaryen heritage might not even come into play. Taking it a step further, it could potentially even hurt his claim. For example, following another Dance of the Dragons Westeros could find itself permanently allergic to Targaryen rule. In this scenario Jon may even have to hide his Targaryen heritage.

I know a lot of folks mislike the idea of Jon sitting on the IT, especially the House Stark fans. But I'll bet the idea of him ascending the throne as Jon Stark, the King in the North, is a lot more palatable than ascending as Jon Targaryen, Blood of the Dragon and Old Valyria, etc. Am I right? Can we have peace on those terms? :)

Beyond that tho', things get messy, and I do not see the unifying effect being as strong as you seem to think. Dorne would, I suspect, be more inclined than before to back Aegon, and Jon will want to grab every knight and man-at-arms he can get his hands on and take them North to fight the War for the Dawn, an effort that will not make any sense to the Southrons, until Jon can put Mace nose-to-nose with a wight or an Other.

Messy is a good word here. House of cards might be another way to describe it. Though all of those cards were pulled from the text, or the common sense file; e.g., that the Tyrells will not want to give up their claim to the IT if/when Tommen is removed from the picture. And that, given the current state of Westeros, it might be very difficult to forcibly remove them. Following that line of thinking, the Tyrells will need to find themselves a king, and so on.

Another one from the common sense file is that Dany And Margaery/House Tyrell should be natural enemies because they are both queens. So if it turns out that the final epic (human) battle is between Jon and Dany (ice and fire), well that would be one more reason for Jon and House Tyrell to form an alliance.

And never mind the arrival of Daenerys with dragons, the problem of getting Jon released from his Night Watch oath, or Stannis, or the Greyjoys, or the problem or securing adequate supplies of obsidian from Dragonstone if Jon does not control that island. At least, I suspect that Margaery and brothers would probably like Jon, who would seem to them honorable and straight-forward and a decided improvement on Joffrey, Cersei, and the Lannisters. What they would make of Ghost, tho'.....

Indeed. So many potential forks in the road. Will Jon leave the NW or won't he? Will Tommen be removed from the throne or not? Is Stannis going to end up as the king? Will Dany and Jon be enemies or allies, or both?

ETA: Heraldic symbols of Houses York and Lancaster and the sigil of House Tyrell.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I highly doubt there's a Targaryen in the Stark family line anywhere. For one, there's absolutely nothing pointing to it that I can see. For another, given that we're in a thread about Jon's parentage, pretty much the entire "uniqueness" here is that he has one parent whose family is the epitome of Fire, and one whose family is the epitome of Ice. For people who think his parentage matters in terms of prophecy — like me — that combination is what matters thematically. The entire thing collapses if it turns out that some Targ princess has already married into the Starks.

Also curious as to who this Targ princess would've been. I know we only have a partial family tree, but what tree we do have keeps fairly decent tabs on the female Targs and none of them are listed as marrying a Stark.

[J. Stargaryen]

It can be all of the above, you know. :)

Well yeah, but then you'd be, like, messin' with my vibe, man. ;) But yeah, you're right. There be layers.

[LeoSuperstar]

No they wouldn't, and thats the point.

Yes, they would. A Stark marrying a Targaryen would be an HUGE deal, and widely known. Even the Jeyne Westerling that married Maegor is mentioned.No offense, but this theory is only wishful thinking.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Yes, they would. A Stark marrying a Targaryen would be an HUGE deal, and widely known. Even the Jeyne Westerling that married Maegor is mentioned.No offense, but this theory is only wishful thinking.

You mean like everybody(in Westeros) knowing R+L=J, that Robert wasn't Joff father, or that Jon C was alive and raising a boy by the name of Aegon?

I for one believe that GRRM has many things going on in the books, some everybody gets, while others nobody does.

[Jorah Friendzone]

This has probably been discussed already, but I don't want to go through 37 threads, so if it has been discussed please point me in the right direction.

The Targaryen seed seems to be strong, and most Targaryens seem to inherit the silver hair and purple eyes, even those not born of a Targ-Targ union. Baelor Breakspear seems to be an exception, and maybe Aegor Rivers (though he did have purple eyes).

So, considering this, how come Jon exhibits such strong Stark features? The Stark features are not even dominant, as we can see with The Ned's children, most of whom have the Tully look: the only exceptions are Arya and Jon, and Jon might not even be his.

[The guy from the Vale]

This has probably been discussed already, but I don't want to go through 37 threads, so if it has been discussed please point me in the right direction.

The Targaryen seed seems to be strong, and most Targaryens seem to inherit the silver hair and purple eyes, even those not born of a Targ-Targ union. Baelor Breakspear seems to be an exception, and maybe Aegor Rivers (though he did have purple eyes).

So, considering this, how come Jon exhibits such strong Stark features? The Stark features are not even dominant, as we can see with The Ned's children, most of whom have the Tully look: the only exceptions are Arya and Jon, and Jon might not even be his.

You forgot a number of people of Targaryen descent in your list: The Baratheons (famous black hair), the Martells (dark brown hair), Brown Ben Plumm (brown hair), as well as Jon Snow's half-sister Rhaenys, who inherited her mother's Martell colouring. Shiera Seastar also didn't inherit her father's purple eyes. So all in all, it really looks far more likely that the Targaryen features are mainly recessive, not dominant.

[Jorah Friendzone]

You forgot a number of people of Targaryen descent in your list: The Baratheons (famous black hair), the Martells (dark brown hair), Brown Ben Plumm (brown hair), as well as Jon Snow's half-sister Rhaenys, who inherited her mother's Martell colouring. Shiera Seastar also didn't inherit her father's purple eyes. So all in all, it really looks far more likely that the Targaryen features are mainly recessive, not dominant.

Well, Baratheon features seem to trump mostly anything, and the Martells have more Rhoynish than Valyrian blood, so...

As to Brown Ben Plumm, he's a huge mix and only has a drop of Targ blood (supposedly), he even has Dothraki eyes...

Targaryen features definitely aren't recessive, the blood of old Valyria is strong and the features can be seen in the Velaryons of Driftmark or even in the people of Lys. They are definitely not more recessive than the Stark ones.

Maybe it was just Rhaegar whose seed was weak, as evidenced by Jon and Rhaenys, but then why is Aegon supposedly Targaryen-looking?

[The guy from the Vale]

The series is pretty realistic on darker hair being more dominant than brighter hair, most generally. And as I pointed out, a very large number of people with Targaryen ancestry have no Targaryen traits whatsoever, often after a single generation already (Bittersteel, Shiera Seastar, Bloodraven, Baelor Breakspear, Rhaenys and Jon Snow all don't exhibit (full) Targaryen traits)

As for the Lyseni: there are many Lyseni with Valyrian ancestors. So the likelyhood that many of them have silver hair increases. Or do you think that because many Swedes have blond hair, blond hair is dominant?...

[Jorah Friendzone]

Bittersteel had purple eyes, Jon may not be Targaryen, Bloodraven doesn't count because he's an albino, and Shiera Seastar exhibits another Targaryen trait: mismatched eyes (cf. Tyrion) :D

[Ygrain]

Maybe it was just Rhaegar whose seed was weak, as evidenced by Jon and Rhaenys, but then why is Aegon supposedly Targaryen-looking?

Because Elia had Targ ancestry, as well, and could pass the recessive gene on, as well.

[Jorah Friendzone]

Because Elia had Targ ancestry, as well, and could pass the recessive gene on, as well.

I like this.

I still don't think the Targ features are recessive, though, since Daeron II passed them on pretty nicely even though his wife was a Martell. I guess it was just Rhaegar who got some sort of corrupted genes :D

[Queen of Procrastination]

Regarding the possible Stark/Targaryen marriage are you refering to that theory that the wife of Aenys I, the mother of Jaehaerys I and Good Queen Alysanne was a Targaryen? Or is there another theory about a Targaryen who married a Stark?

[J. Stargaryen]

I like this.

I still don't think the Targ features are recessive, though, since Daeron II passed them on pretty nicely even though his wife was a Martell. I guess it was just Rhaegar who got some sort of corrupted genes :D

Rhaediation poisoning. ;)

I'm no expert myself, but I thought the consensus opinion was that the Targaryen traits are recessive.

[Jorah Friendzone]

Rhaediation poisoning. ;)

:lmao:

Well, I don't even know anymore, it was just something that popped into my head since a lot of the recognition as a Targ comes from the physical features.

Anyway, I'm a big supporter of R+L=J, so if it isn't so I'm gonna be really disappointed.

[MtnLion]

The idea goes that Torrhen negotiated a deal with the Targaryens, rather than let his bastard brother (Brandon) attempt to kill them on the eve of the battle. He sent three maesters to the Targaryens to negotiate a peace, and it could have included an inter-marriage deal. The Kings in the north were a proud line, and some significant allowances would need to be made to reach an accord. Then we have a queen, Alysanne that is extremely interested in the north. Just seems to make sense.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You mean like everybody(in Westeros) knowing R+L=J, that Robert wasn't Joff father, or that Jon C was alive and raising a boy by the name of Aegon?

There is a big damn difference between three major — as in, life-threateningly major — SECRETS like those three things, and what by all rights should have been a normal, feted, very public marriage. Not even in the same ballpark.

Also, happy to see "Jon can't be a Targ because he doesn't look like one" for the fiftieth time. It'd been a while. :(

[PuzzleTime]

Right near the begining of the story.

From GoT....p98...

Arya: I wish you were coming with us.

Jon: Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?

From SoS...p868...

Jon dreaming: "You are no Stark," he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. "There is no place for you here. Go away." ......I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place.

Not to mention all that time LC Mormont's raven squaking,"King...King...King."

Things are up for grabs...but I'm glad I read the books. GRRM sure gave us a good story.

Hurray for my first post.

[J. Stargaryen]

From Wikipedia, Wars of the Roses: Names and Symbols

The name "Wars of the Roses" refers to the Heraldic badges associated with the two royal houses, the White Rose of York and the Red Rose of Lancaster. It came into common use in the nineteenth century after the publication of Anne of Geierstein by Sir Walter Scott.^[1] Scott based the name on a scene in William Shakespeare's play Henry VI Part 1, set in the gardens of the Temple Church, where a number of noblemen and a lawyer pick red or white roses to show their loyalty to the Lancastrian or Yorkist faction respectively. The Yorkist faction used the symbol of the white rose from early in the conflict, but the Lancastrian red rose was apparently introduced only after the victory of Henry Tudor at the Battle of Bosworth, when it was combined with the Yorkist white rose to form the Tudor rose, which symbolised the union of the two houses.^[2]

Most of the participants in the wars wore livery badges associated with their immediate lords or patrons under the prevailing system of so-called "bastard feudalism".^[3] For example, Henry Tudor's forces at Bosworth fought under the banner of a red dragon, while the Yorkist army used Richard III's personal device of a white boar.

The way the York-Lancaster conflict ended and the Tudor dynasty began was especially interesting for me in light of this recent Jon+Margaery talk.

1. Henry Tudor fought the decisive battle of the WotR under the banner of a red dragon.
   
   
2. Created a new symbol for his house in the form of a (red) rose.
   
   
3. Married Elizabeth York, bringing an end to the York-Lannister conflict.
   
   
4. Combines Y&L white and red roses to form the Tudor Rose, which signals the beginning of a new dynasty.
   

Now here is how that might look when translated to ASoIaF:

1. Jon Snow fights a decisive battle under the banner of a red dragon.
   
   
2. Later creates his own sigil, a (blue) rose.
   
   
3. Jon marries Margaery Tyrell, bringing an end to the Stark-Lannister conflict.
   
   
4. Combines his blue winter rose with her golden rose to create a new sigil, and signal the start of a new dynasty. Maybe a blue rose on a gold background, or a blue and gold rose on some other background.
   

Numbers 2-4 end up being right in line with what I was saying in post 115, so I was pleasantly surprised to read this morning that there was already a good real life model for this scenario. BTW, Henry's royal coat of arms had a dragon on one side and a dog on the other. Something which suggests a connection to Jon Snow, IMO.

[FittleLinger]

There is a big damn difference between three major — as in, life-threateningly major — SECRETS like those three things, and what by all rights should have been a normal, feted, very public marriage. Not even in the same ballpark.

Also, happy to see "Jon can't be a Targ because he doesn't look like one" for the fiftieth time. It'd been a while. :(

Now we're eagerly awaiting for the "He burned his hand and therefore cannot be a Targaryen".

In all seriousness, people, hear me out! These are looks and genes. Even in real life two brown eyed people could have a blue eyed kid (rare, but happens). And that's not even comparable to the case because Jon has his mother's traits.

It's not like he looks like a freaking summer islander.