R+L=J v 37

[Jorah Friendzone]

Oh, I just remembered, Jon burned his hand and the blood of the dragon isn't harmed by fire, so he can't be a Targ.

:love:

[Queen of Procrastination]

Now we're eagerly awaiting for the "He burned his hand and therefore cannot be a Targaryen".

And for a "why didn´t he tell Catelyn?"

[Queen of Procrastination]

Oh, I just remembered, Jon burned his hand and the blood of the dragon isn't harmed by fire, so he can't be a Targ.

:love:

:bang: I am glad that you´re just jokeing.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Oh, I just remembered, Jon burned his hand and the blood of the dragon isn't harmed by fire, so he can't be a Targ.

:love:

Dany's hands are burned in AWWD. The funeral pyre was a one time thing. (I was fooled too.)

[Jorah Friendzone]

Dany's hands are burned in AWWD.

That proves that Dany is a fake Targ as well.

Long live King Tyrion! He even used wildfire, just like his dad :)

[FittleLinger]

`

Oh, I just remembered, Jon burned his hand and the blood of the dragon isn't harmed by fire, so he can't be a Targ.

:love:

:cheers: :rofl:

And for a "why didn´t he tell Catelyn?"

Which reminded me to ask something serious. We know that Ned told Catelyn to never speak of the matter when she involved Ashara, right? Did he specifically get heated up by mentioning Ashara, or did he just tell Catelyn to never ask him of Jon's mother in general. What was the exchange again?

[Queen of Procrastination]

That proves that Dany is a fake Targ as well.

And Viserys he got killed by molted gold.

Long live King Tyrion! He even used wildfire, just like his dad :)

but he dosn´t look like a Targaryen :)

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Oh he was kidding! :blushing:

[Jorah Friendzone]

but he dosn´t look like a Targaryen :)

He has "hair so blond it seemed white" and mismatched eyes like Shiera Seastar ;)

[Queen of Procrastination]

`

:cheers: :rofl:

Which reminded me to ask something serious. We know that Ned told Catelyn to never speak of the matter when she involved Ashara, right? Did he specifically get heated up by mentioning Ashara, or did he just tell Catelyn to never ask him of Jon's mother in general. What was the exchange again?

Here is the quote (From AGoT Catelyn II p. 72-73

Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband´s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys´s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur´s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to summon her courage, but finally, in bed on night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to now. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne´s name was never heard at Winterfell again.

[LadyMary]

I guess I'm one of the few who can see Jon potentially ending up as king in the end. Not because he wants it, but because it may be necessary. When GRRM says he envisions a bittersweet ending that calls to mind the Scouring of the Shire, it leads me to believe that Westeros will be in ruins by the time this is all over, and we'll be left with a period of survivors' rebuilding. Jon, assuming he's still alive, may find himself in a position where he's distinguished himself in whatever great battle has taken place and will be looked to to lead whoever remains. What I envision in the end isn't a corrupt KL that Jon finds himself trapped in, but a land in ruins in which KL may no longer exist at all.

Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with R+L=J but I felt like weighing in. :)

Agreed! I share the view that Westeros will be a ruin by the end of the series, and I think the "Iron Throne" will be nothing more than a relic of bygone dynasty with no relevance to what's left of the "Seven Kingdoms" in the end. Jon could be a King, or whatever passes for a ruler in post-apocalyptic Westeros, but Westeros won't be anything like the place it was before the real war begins. Whether Westeros reverts to separate kingdoms, or takes some other form of governance, it won't look the way it did.

The Stark kids including Jon, who manage to survive will be faced with rebuilding a new future from the ruins of the past. That's what I think will make the ending bittersweet for the survivors, rather than tragic or happy.

[Steve Stark]

Let us say that Jon finds out he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar:

No this does not make him become king of the seven kingdoms. Why would it? In a dark world created by GRRM, having the rightful claim means nothing (or at least next to nothing). Power means everything, not the claim which only reinforces the power. If I’m not right here, then Daenerys would already be ruling the kingdom, yet she does not. Why would it be any different for someone always thought of as the “bastard son of Ned”? He has no army to support his claim…yet.

What this info does for Jon: No, I don’t believe Jon Snow is dead.

The wall “falls” to the wildlings due to the NW being far too undermanned, corrupted, going through a time of chaos, and because most who are “stationed there for life” do not want to be there in the first place and are only there to avoid being put to death. Hence the reason they killed Mormont and a variety of other details, including the “stabbing of Jon”. The place is falling apart. Simple as that.

So what we know is the NW is no longer the same as it was before, and this is partly due to the fact that the south did not take the wall seriously. “Others” and “grumpkins” and all that are scoffed at constantly by the leaders of the south who worry more about their own issues, and do not worry about defending the wall. The wall is simply a place to send people to get them out of the way. The threat of the others is a fairy tale to them. Unfortunately, the threat of the Others is very real and will need to be fought by SOMEONE.

THAT is where Jon comes in. But he is or was the LC of the NW, he is a leader, he was raised by Ned and the north will respect him for that. With the benefit of being both Stark and Targ blood, with the Red Priest behind him, and because he is the “old blood” the wildlings will follow him too, he will gain the support of Dany eventually, if she ever shows up.

I believe she does. They fight together and save the kingdom, with many banners fighting alongside them, but not without cost. I believe one of them dies. Most likely Jon. Starks have bad luck and the Jets/Giants lose too many games and you know what they say about that. Jon will impregnate Dany, she’ll be queen (you’re welcome queen Dany fans), and she’ll produce a son (or maybe even Targ/Stark twins). I know she’s infertile or whatever, but she’s the mother of dragons, and the “seed is strong”.

Or maybe he simply lops off Dany’s head when she shows up, the dragons get pissed and melt the wall, and then the walkers take the Iron Throne while Bran watches the whole thing. Who really knows?

[Steve Stark]

Oh...and I start off serious and get more and more ridiculous as that previous post goes on...if you didn't notice. Don't take me too serious except for maybe the first two paragraphs. I think the wine is kicking in.

[LadyMary]

Well, Baratheon features seem to trump mostly anything, and the Martells have more Rhoynish than Valyrian blood, so...

As to Brown Ben Plumm, he's a huge mix and only has a drop of Targ blood (supposedly), he even has Dothraki eyes...

Targaryen features definitely aren't recessive, the blood of old Valyria is strong and the features can be seen in the Velaryons of Driftmark or even in the people of Lys. They are definitely not more recessive than the Stark ones.

Maybe it was just Rhaegar whose seed was weak, as evidenced by Jon and Rhaenys, but then why is Aegon supposedly Targaryen-looking?

I think one of the reasons to justify Valyrian/Targaryen incest was to inbreed certain traits that would otherwise be diluted, what we call recessiveness. The Valyrian may have been most concerned with abilities related to controling dragons, but the racial features of Valyrians would be stronger due to inbreeding. Going by what Viserys was raised by Aerys to believe - that "dragons do not mate with the beasts of the field..." - I'm sure he was from a long line of Valyrian supremacists.

What happens when Valyrians marry non-Valyrians is that they get a mix of features; eye and hair color, etc. Hence, the darker hair and complexion of the Martells, the black-haired, blue-eyed Baratheons, and the various other Targaryen/non-Targ pairings having offspring with a range of features, some favoring the Targaryen parent (i.e., Aegon VI) and others the non-Targ parent (i.e., Rhaeanys, Jon).

[Gi_Varotti]

I have a question: I believe the Song is called "Ice & Fire" because of Jon's blood and the prophecy thing but I also believe that it is not just about Jon. So, if he ends up being AA and the King of the whole Westeros (the Old Gods forbid it), what would happen to Dany, Aegon, Stannis and anyone else that could sit the throne? I mean, there must be something left for grabs, Jon just can't get all!

Unless Dany joins the dosh khaleen, greyscale kills Aegon and Ramsay happens to Stannis (joking)...

This can be a crackpot but I think Dany and Aegon might end up married.

"If he had lived, I might have married him. Aegon would have been closer to my age than Viserys"

.

It is known ;)

Exactly.

I can't understand the idea that Jon wants to play the "game of thrones" or that Jon would be happy as a king. In my personal view, it goes against everything we know about his character.

Yes, he didn´t like being LC that much and I doubt he will like being King.

I totally agree. I only disagree with the idea that Jon wants to be king or that he wants to play the "game of thrones". :)

I agree that Jon would make a great King in the North, but I disagree on the idea of him wanting to play the game.

:agree:

This has probably been discussed already, but I don't want to go through 37 threads, so if it has been discussed please point me in the right direction.

The Targaryen seed seems to be strong, and most Targaryens seem to inherit the silver hair and purple eyes, even those not born of a Targ-Targ union. Baelor Breakspear seems to be an exception, and maybe Aegor Rivers (though he did have purple eyes).

So, considering this, how come Jon exhibits such strong Stark features? The Stark features are not even dominant, as we can see with The Ned's children, most of whom have the Tully look: the only exceptions are Arya and Jon, and Jon might not even be his.

Dunk about Baelor:

He does not look a Targaryen in truth, with that dark hair. Dunk said as much to Egg. "It's said he favors his mother," the boy reminded him. "She was a Dornish princess."

Jon favors Lyanna, that's all :)

Maybe it was just Rhaegar whose seed was weak, as evidenced by Jon and Rhaenys, but then why is Aegon supposedly Targaryen-looking?

Erh, because he might be a Blackfyre? :dunno:

[Starks Among Us]

I guess I'm one of the few who can see Jon potentially ending up as king in the end. Not because he wants it, but because it may be necessary. When GRRM says he envisions a bittersweet ending that calls to mind the Scouring of the Shire, it leads me to believe that Westeros will be in ruins by the time this is all over, and we'll be left with a period of survivors' rebuilding. Jon, assuming he's still alive, may find himself in a position where he's distinguished himself in whatever great battle has taken place and will be looked to to lead whoever remains. What I envision in the end isn't a corrupt KL that Jon finds himself trapped in, but a land in ruins in which KL may no longer exist at all.

Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with R+L=J but I felt like weighing in. :)

completely agree and my theory as well. it's hard to have a corrupt KL if it's in ruins and half the population is dead due to the population control the others is sure to unleash once they bring down the wall....

[Starks Among Us]

1.) Who do we think will survive if the wall does fall and the Other's do come south? I thought in Dany's vision of HotU when she sees the IT covered in snow, that it is to symbolise just how far south winter (and the Other's have come) ...and if that's the case and only a handfull of people know how to defeat the others, (and the war has already taken its toll) how many main players (Roose, Stannis, Varys, LF, Jaime, Cersie etc) will really make it through the war with the Others? It may not be so much as Jon fighting to be king, so much as he's really the only one left who is not only capable but has the qualifications (ancestry)

2) In the one vision Bran has through the Weirwod, doesn't he see a woman heavy with child coming out of the water asking for her sons to "avenge her" ? Is it possible that she was a Targ who was forced to marry a Stark ?

3) The one wildling Jon kills, he thinks comes back in the eagle that tries to remove his eye...if Jon is stabbed to the point of probable death, is it possible that he wargs into ghost until Mel (or someone) has a chance to figure out how to heal his physical body?

[Budj]

I think I mentioned this a few pages back, but with the recent similar comments on it I'll re-state it.

I agree with others that the IT will not even be a factor by the time it is appropriate for Jon to 'make a claim' with his blood line. Winter has come (a long one at that...) and that is going to change the dynamics in Westeros. A King of Winter will be needed when we finally get to 'A Dream of Spring' to lead the realm through the harder times. Summer Kings with their game of thrones aren't fit for it. The ways of the North are what will get them through the harsh winter. 'The lone wolf dies while the pack survives' is an appropriate phrase that comes to mind and the south/their GoT is definitely not about the pack mentality.

[Budj]

1.) Who do we think will survive if the wall does fall and the Other's do come south? I thought in Dany's vision of HotU when she sees the IT covered in snow, that it is to symbolise just how far south winter (and the Other's have come) ...and if that's the case and only a handfull of people know how to defeat the others, (and the war has already taken its toll) how many main players (Roose, Stannis, Varys, LF, Jaime, Cersie etc) will really make it through the war with the Others? It may not be so much as Jon fighting to be king, so much as he's really the only one left who is not only capable but has the qualifications (ancestry)

Definitely possible, but in the event Others aren't 'evil' it could also represnet the harshness of the winter climate reaching that far South...or the symbolism of Snow on the throne = Jon Snow has the rightful claim? Too much in the air for who will survive the others. No one is safe, imo, but I doubt Roose / Ramsey will live much longer and I have a suspicion that LF won't make it much longer. It seems the Sansa/Vale interaction may be his last useful purpose as far as I can tell. So those three may not even get to see the Others. I would agree though that Jon will become King and/or a leader through actions/necessity and his ancestry will just kind of 'seal the deal' and not be the main reason he is looked to for leadership.

2) In the one vision Bran has through the Weirwod, doesn't he see a woman heavy with child coming out of the water asking for her sons to "avenge her" ? Is it possible that she was a Targ who was forced to marry a Stark ?

Lots of theories on this one, but I don't think I've ever heard of it being a Targ/Stark marriage. Stark's/the North really kept to themselves until Rickard Stark (Ned's Father). Highly unlikely and a completely out of left field situation for a Targ/Stark union before Jon to be revealed.

3) The one wildling Jon kills, he thinks comes back in the eagle that tries to remove his eye...if Jon is stabbed to the point of probable death, is it possible that he wargs into ghost until Mel (or someone) has a chance to figure out how to heal his physical body?

This is a very common and well supported theory.

[Queen of Procrastination]

2) In the one vision Bran has through the Weirwod, doesn't he see a woman heavy with child coming out of the water asking for her sons to "avenge her" ? Is it possible that she was a Targ who was forced to marry a Stark ?

The thing about another Stark/Targaryen marriage has been discussed one or two pages back in this topic.

There are some people who believe that Aenys´s I wife was a Stark. She was the mother of Jaehaerys I and Good Queen Alysanne.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75100-possible-spoilers-the-norths-relationship-with-the-targaryenstheory/#entry3687363

The meaning of this part of Bran´s vision has been discussed a couple of times, but I never heard the theory that she was a Targaryen married to a Stark.

Some people believe that it was Old Nan and that the father was Duncan the Tall.