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Arya and Sansa's Musical Nomenclature

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But I have one question - it's normal to name someone after your friends' first name, but after his family name? Which also happens to be the name of the region (the Vale of Arryn). It's like naming Sansa Barathea or Stormsendia?

You name after one person you have affections for, not after his whole family.

There's Lanna for the Lannisters, and there could be something like Marta for the Martells, but house names like Stark and Greyjoy would be harder to turn into first names. So there's an Eddara not a Starka Tallhart.

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There's Lanna for the Lannisters, and there could be something like Marta for the Martells, but house names like Stark and Greyjoy would be harder to turn into first names. So there's an Eddara not a Starka Tallhart.

But Lanna comes from Lann the Clever, which is a mythical hero's first name. It's like naming your kid Homer or Ulysses. My point was that it's normal to name a person after a person, and not after a whole house/family.

For instance, if George RR Martin was my best buddy and I wanted to name my kid after him, I would call them George/Georgia, and not Martin/Marta.

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I have no doubt in my mind that the musical thing is deliberate, but everyone is free to look at his own connections.

But I have one question - it's normal to name someone after your friends' first name, but after his family name? Which also happens to be the name of the region (the Vale of Arryn). It's like naming Sansa Barathea or Stormsendia?

You name after one person you have affections for, not after his whole family.

There's Barra. Robert's and whore daughter Ned and Jon Arryn visited.

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its surprising Aria hasn't become a girl's name already

it is. it's in my hella old baby names book

that's so creepy being a thumb instrument - like she will always be under someone's thumb. Yuk!

Underfoot and Underthumb, respectively. Gotta start somewhere. They'll finish by learning how to trip and how to thumb wrestle. I like the con artist connection for the classy daughter's name. Hopefully, they'll con Varys and steal the rest of the realm out from under him, so that when the queening happens, she'll be presiding over the whole enchilada.

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That Sansa is the "instrument" suggests that she might offer the means by which they fight this battle, which also makes sense since she's the one learning how to play the game.

A bit of irony then that she's supposedly learning the game from someone who proclaims that life is not a song, and it supports the other foreshadowing of her being the one to defeat him, and what he represents.

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I think that the appreciation for Sansa and Arya has reached the necessary critical mass for GRRM to mercilessly kill them both :drunk:

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I think that the appreciation for Sansa and Arya has reached the necessary critical mass for GRRM to mercilessly kill them both :drunk:

Don't know if I could handle losing both. :crying:

And interesting thread, Apple Martini. :) I would never have thought to look at their names in such a way.

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she's supposedly learning the game from someone who proclaims that life is not a song

Nice find. It is fascinating, the potential in the character. She lives in an opera of dischord rather than a song. Even in victory, she'd still tell us life isn't a song due to how her life has diverged from the romantic dreams of youth. But maybe what Baelish has forgotten is that we should strive to make life as close to a song as possible? Interestingly, the quote puts Baelish in direct contradiction to the author's SOIAF title. It's not that Baelish is wrong in his sentiment. Life is icky and Sansa will likely have to use non-song strategies in any revolt against her 'lord'. But whereas Baelish's soul is silent and merciless, she could use the same tools of manipulation while keeping a song in her heart, the way that our courts try to temper justice with mercy to forge a better world. Because, as the title implies, life ultimately is our song, even if it includes horrible stanzas that don't match our romantic hopes for how things should be. The upside of this is we can always hope to change the tune and improve upon it because in this analogy our voice is strength of determination.

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To clarify, "music" is about harmony, balance, putting together melody and rhythm (structuring noise). A "song" is an instance of "music," and is highly associated with vocals or utterances (so there's a vocal aspect to Jon's being the Song of Ice and Fire-- which makes sense, he'd be the figurehead). That Sansa is the "instrument" suggests that she might offer the means by which they fight this battle, which also makes sense since she's the one learning how to play the game.

I'm of the opinion that all of the Starks will play some role in the final battle, whatever form that takes. I don't foresee an ending where the forces of good line up to defeat the forces of evil, mankind coming together for the common good sort of ending. Martin says he writes about the human heart in conflict and seems to be giving us some teasers up at the wall on just how this theme will play out, even as the threat of the Others grows. Mel looks in her fires and Jon works to protect the realms of man yet we are still seeing jockeying for power, betrayal, and conflicting desires with the characters.

Sansa, unlike both Jon and Arya, is a character that, up to this point, is without magic power which has left me wondering just how she would contribute to future events. It's my belief that Sansa will be the "instrument" as you put it that navigates the different factions and using her skill at giving others what they want which will allow the battle to be fought. So, yeah, as you say, she's that political arm. But, it's not LF's game of manipulation and using others. It's her unique method of empathy and understanding of human character. Sansa doesn't need magic to fulfill this role and as events at the wall are showing us, no matter what the threat, the game will go keep being played. That's where she will come in.

So, yes, long winded way of saying I agree with you.

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ETA It is the feminine form of the name Sancho which means saintly.

Which makes Littlefinger... Don Quixote?

Hold on a second. What does Don Quixote think he's tilting at? Giants! What is Sansa prophesied to slay in a snow castle? A giant! What is House Baelish's ancestral sigil? A Giant!

Where am I going with this train of thought? Nowhere in particular.

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For people who don't know much about Visenya and Rhaenys

Visenya was warrior like, she prefered armor than gals and was more tempered than her sister

Rhaenys was more enjoyable and more beaultiful, and it's from her where the line of Targaryens comes, as Visenya's son Maegor I died without issues.

Rhaenys is pretty and more lady girl = Sansa

Visenya is more warrior and wild = Arya

the only stuff is that Visenya is older than Rhaenys, she was two years older than Aegon I and four years older than Rhaenys

Sansa is older than Arya, but, interesting thread

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Jon Pauletto, I had a musing once, that Rhaegar was trying to recreate Aegon, Rhaenys and Vysenia. He named his first two children Rhaenys and Aegon. Ok, the boy is Aegon, but someone pointed out - the first girl should have been Vysenia, she was older. Most probably it's nothing, but it has some kind of a symetry with what you are saying. Another reverse symetry with Sansa and Arya, isn't that the typical Martin - reverse trope?

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After I watched the Borgia's and knowing that GRRM based a lot of his story on history, I wondered if Sansa's name might have something to do with Sancha of Aragon who was married to Gioffre (Joffrey) Borgia.

I wondered about this also but I found this SSM

I asked on behalf of Ormond how George came up with names and whether Joffrey and Sansa were named after Jofrie Borgia and his wife Sancia of Aragon.

Originally, George had babyname books and that sort of thing, and very carefully tried to pick out his names. By now, however, he has a feel for it and he just makes names up and sees if they sounds right to him. Joffrey and Sansa were not named after Jofrie and Sancia.

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For people who don't know much about Visenya and Rhaenys

Visenya was warrior like, she prefered armor than gals and was more tempered than her sister

Rhaenys was more enjoyable and more beaultiful, and it's from her where the line of Targaryens comes, as Visenya's son Maegor I died without issues.

Rhaenys is pretty and more lady girl = Sansa

Visenya is more warrior and wild = Arya

the only stuff is that Visenya is older than Rhaenys, she was two years older than Aegon I and four years older than Rhaenys

Sansa is older than Arya, but, interesting thread

I don't think that Visenya was wild. She was described as stern and serious. Daena on the other hand who I think Arya has more in common with was wild. What Arya and Visenya have in common are that they are both passionate and have a dark and unforgiving side.

ETA: It was also stated that Rhaenys had a mischievous quality that Visenya lacked so Visenya seems a by the book orderly type to me.

To expand more on the Daena thing as to why I think that comparison is more apt than Visenya or Rhaenys:

Daena was Targaryen to the bone; strong, beautiful, wilful. Her silver-gold hair was thick and curly, a wild untamed mane that tumbled down across her shoulders and framed a heart-shaped face, a pair of sparling purple eyes, and a fearless "I'll dare anything" smile. She was a wild almost from birth, lithe and athletic, a runner, a climber, and an expert horsewoman. "I was born to ride a dragon," she liked to say, but the dragons were dead. Daena was expert at riding at the rings, though she was never allowed to joust in an actual tourney. She was also a hunter, and a fine archer with her short recurved bow. She worshipped her father and idolized her brother Daeron, the Young Dragon.

Daena's dress was often as dramatic as she was.

Where Daena was wilful, wild, and adventurous, Rhaena was dutiful, meek, and passive.

Untamed hair, willful, is lithe, adventurous, wild, athletic, a climber (Arya wishes to climb like Bran and climbs to rooftops like a cat in AGoT, is a good horsewoman.

Daena showed interest in dragons. Arya did as well. Arya wanted to hunt and learn the bow and arrow. Idolizing the father and brother applies to Arya.

Style of dress:

Daena's dress was often as dramatic as she was. As a child she often dressed all in black, like her father King Aegon III. After her brother Baelor failed to consummate their marriage, she changed to all white, and vowed to wear nothing else until she had been properly bedded, in hopes of shaming him. (It did not work. Baelor liked her in white, feeling that it made her look more innocent). Later, as a pampered prisoner in her brother's court, Daena made several escapes, usually by dressing as a washerwoman or serving girl (once with the connivance of her cousin, Aegon).

You could legimately depict her in the simple brown skirt and laced bodice of a peasant girl -- in her hunting leathers, with her bow and quiver -- in her white post-wedding court clothes -- even in the blacks she wore as a child. No matter how she was dressed, however, she always wore the golden three-headed dragon pendant she had inherited from her father. At court she wore it on a fine golden chain; when in disguise, she hung it on a leather thong and hid it beneath her clothes. Supposedly she even wore it when bathing, and when making love.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Three_Maidens_in_the_Tower/

There is black and white imagery with Daena only Arya wears it simultaneously as a servant of the HoB&W.

In order to escape Daena took the disguise of the lowborn. Arya was disguised as lowborn for a good part of her captivity. She also was Roose Bolton's serving girl.

[Did Daena complaining about how she might have been Queen if it weren't for the Dance of the Dragons determining that a Targaryen queen would never rule in her own right lead to Daemon Blackfyre's rebellion?]

Certainly possible, but it was Aegon's very public gift of Blackfyre to his bastard son that first started widespread talk that perhaps he should be king.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_History/

Arya does not want to rule but she did want to be able to have the same opportunities as her male relatives but was prevented from doing so because of her gender.

Daena was married once and it was dissolved. Arya is married (although without her knowledge) and will presumably be made a widow and never "marry" again like Daena.

She became known as "Daena the Defiant" when she turned up pregnant, and refused to name the father. Her son was born robust and healthy, with the purple eyes and silver-gold hair of the Targaryens. Daena named him Daemon. Years later, when he distinguished himself as a squire, his father (who by that time was the king) presented him the sword of Aegon the Conquerer, and from time forth he was known as Daemon Blackfyre.

...the smallfolk of the city largely love the gentle, pious Baelor, but they love the princesses as well, and wild, high-hearted Daena most of all.

I can find less differences between these two figures whereas Visenya has certain qualities and does certain things that does not seem like Arya to me. To the point as said earlier Daena is someone who eventually went "solo." Focusing on the role her actions (as well as her cousin Aegon) led to death and destruction by creating Daemon together who will be a figure for the Blackfyre Rebellions.

Perhaps Arya will do something destructive as well to tie that into what the Ghost of High Heart said about her.

Evita also compared Arya to Ariel from the Tempest. She did mention how they had similar names and:

"...magician Prospero and Ariel manage to bring about together may actually suggest a similar event to come where the joint efforts of the kindly man and his “no one” Arya will combine the forces of nature and magic to cause a natural disaster much like a tempest, or another such catastrophe. As Ariel is in service to Prospero, Arya is a servant mentored by a kindly priest."

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76013-arya-no-one-and-the-water-motif-in-braavos/page__st__300#entry3802249

Ariel is also an air spirit and as Castellan posted an alternate definition for aria is air. I'm thinking perhaps that she will not cause a natural disaster but something that manifests the titles that she was given by the Ghost in a different way than simply that she kills people.

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To expand on my earlier post, one other reason I like the more inclusive "music" definition for "aria" is that it seems to work quite well structurally-- Arya is the single POV who has thus far had a POV in every book.

"Music" is the phenomenon of harmonized flow; flow is precisely what Arya's arc seems to be, and the more I think on this, the more significant this definition seems in terms of what Arya's flowed through and witnessed. Arya is there when Illyrio and Varys speak back in aGoT; she then flows through the vortex that is the Riverlands and the only character through whom we can see in each of the books (which is really interesting given that Bran is our "all knowing greenseer").

Music is really a kind of force or phenomenon, and truly, that is Arya's character. From Syrio's lessons to her Blind Girl stint, she's been learning to "see with her eyes/ senses;" this phenomenological (i.e. stimulation of senses) development is all about Arya's becoming an open channel for observation and perhaps even reporting.

I think that Arya may actually be the one with an all-seeing eye. I think this observation phenomenon is the flow and harmony her name evokes, but I would venture that Sansa, the instrument, is how this music is created. Where Arya is a great eye, Sansa seems adept at piecing together what is unseen. Should Arya report her observations to Sansa, I think that Sansa would piece together the puzzle, putting "sound" and sense to these observations, enabling a full articulation. Perhaps Sansa's "instrumentation" is how Arya crosses the threshold from chaos (noise) to order (music).

What is sad to consider is the "song." Music is eternal, and an instrument has a permanence to it as well. If their names gives us indication of their outcome, I would guess that Arya and Sansa will endure the series. A song, however, is a moment of music; it has a clear end and beginning. I think a lot of us have admitted the likelihood that Jon will die, and if we consider the connotations of "song," it seems to reinforce this possibility.

Something I've always feared is that should Jon be resurrected literally in some capacity, that this may be the reason he must ultimately die. That is, I've wondered if magic and magical resurrection particularly might have negative effects on the natural balance, and in order to restore natural balance, death must get its due. It had also occurred to me that he might ask Arya to make this sacrifice if his death is required to restore order. I had approached this possibility from a character development standpoint previously (and not with Arya on FM business, but as a true, heart-wrenching sacrifice foreshadowing), but it would seem to work with the symbolism of their names as well. If music is the force of sounds in harmony, it would make sense that she could be the figure who restores natural harmony and ends the "song."

Sort of adjacently, I've wondered about the boy's names as well in terms of foreshadowing. Each of the boys were named for characters who came to violent or bloody ends, and I wonder if this tells us anything about their fates. Robb and Robert were both gored amongst company they trusted. Then Brandon (Ned's brother) was forced to watch his father die while his body was completely unable to intervene; he ultimately strangled himself. I wonder if this tells us anything about Bran, whose body is prevented from action, but through dreams and weirwoods sits detained watching his family die, perhaps never to return/ succumbing to his own noose? I'm less comfortable speculating about the Rickard/ Rickon parallel in terms of how Rickon might meet death, but I suppose suffice it to say I would not be surprised if it's just Sansa and Arya at the end.

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Another wagering opportunity along gender lines, then. I find this development shocking.

would not be surprised if it's just Sansa and Arya at the end.

Your take on Jon becoming unnatural and needing to be peacefully put down by someone who loves him summoned this from memory: In the beloved Babylon 5 television space opera there was a king Arthur figure who risked all to learn the truth about the scary alien race terrorizing the galaxy, as Jon will likely do. 'Twas the station captain who went to Za'ha'doom knowing it was a trap. He should have died there but strangely didn't. After he nuked the Shadow aliens on their homeworld he faced certain death from the blast so he opted instead for almost-certain death by diving down into the mysterious dark hole the enemy had built their city around. Well right about the time he should have splatted at the bottom of the fall he was frozen in between tick and tock, in between life and death, by the oldest of life forms which just happened to make that hole its dwelling place, as if waiting in limbo for something interesting to drop into its lap. This being found the captain worthy (unlike the vile worshippers camped above the fissure) and loaned the captain 20 years' worth of its life force so he could complete the task of saving the realm from the vile aliens who'd lost their way and were wrecking the cosmos. Which he did, and at the end of the 20 year span, the lightform Lorien came back to collect him as foretold, wisking the captain away beyond the outer rim of the galaxy like Frodo was allowed to travel west into the blessed realm of the elves, or like how excalibur had to be returned to the lady of the lake after its task was done. The big cry was that everybody knew the day was coming and there was no way to prevent it, and the man still seemed full of life right up until the end unlike a natural death, so it seemed unfair while at the same time it was exactly fair because it was a necessary leveling of the scales. Wonder if Martin was a viewer.

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Then Brandon (Ned's brother) was forced to watch his father die while his body was completely unable to intervene; he ultimately strangled himself. I wonder if this tells us anything about Bran, whose body is prevented from action, but through dreams and weirwoods sits detained watching his family die, perhaps never to return/ succumbing to his own noose?

Or maybe not, because if we consider that Bran is called "the flying wolf", and only another creature incarnates perfectly this : a Dragon-Then, maybe Bran, wargering a dragon, will be able to revert a similar event at the present. Could be a sort of karma of the Stark.

His body is immobilized, but not his will.

(This also reminds me of Sansa, although in her case from a perspective more "human", exerting her will as a free person.)

In the dragon and with his fire, he could be able to rescue his family this time.

( Not to mention it would be very interesting that a son of the winter´s house- who, curiously, has been called a summer´s son - enters into the body of a son of the fire.)

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Hi, Apple Martini or Martin´s Apple, as you prefer, your perspective about the names is interesting but I saw their personalities in a different way.

Are you noticed that many of them seem to be desconstructions of others names? as Alysanne = Sansa + Alayne,Tears of Alyssa (the waterfall, near where lives Lysa and Sansa,atop of the mountain Giant's Lance where " lies the Eyrie... On its western shoulder flows Alyssa's Tears. At the foot of the mountain lies the Gates of the Moon."Almost described like a person...)

named like that for a "ancient Arryn who saw her family butchered before her and never shed a tear", or meaning also the sadness of a Lysa in her marriage, and Sansa in captivity and her personal disgraces. But Also the tears of Lys, the poison (and perhaps related with the prophecy of Maggy).

Another thing : the names with Y in it and whose characters seem to have similar characteristics, or be alter egos of anothers?

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ETA It is the feminine form of the name Sancho which means saintly.

GRRM really likes to mix and match names together or use non-modern spelling to put a unique twist on it. EX. Rickard instead of Richard, or Brenna (sword) and Brianne (high noble) to make Brienne.

Arya is a Persian name that means faithful friend. It has been shown multiple times that Arya makes friends easily, at least among the common born. And a lot of the names on her list are there because she is steadfastly loyal to her friends and family.

Sansa could be a combination of any number of names, and while I think the sansa instrument is the main source of her name it would be remiss to dismiss the influence of names like Sancha (holy), Sanjay (victory), Sanja (wisdom), and then keeping with the Persian theme Sanaz (full of grace).

Looking at the roots and etymology might give us a hint as to the tune Sansa and Arya will play as they become more active in the grand scheme of the story.

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