assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Still don't buy it, sorry. Why wouldn't Varys use the chance to get rid of LF by ratting him out to the king? And as we saw when he got Sansa away from KL, LF knows how to evade Varys's spies.And why would Varys help Ned by explicitly (as opposed to vaguely) pointing him in the right direction when it came to Arryn's killer? He said what he did knowing it was true, but also knowing that Ned, and you apparently, would incorrectly assume that it was Ser Hugh, who as it turns out had fuck all to do with Arryn's death. It's also possible that Varys does know that Baelish took Sansa and simply chose not to act on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBloodraven Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Varys in AGOT talking to The Ned about who might have poisoned Jon Arryn:The Ned, and I, assumed he was talking about Ser Hugh of the Vale, Jon Arryn's former squire. But he's actually talking about Littlefinger.When I realised this = mind officially blown. The Spider's damn riddling!!Wow. Mind.Blown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Faceless Bard Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Upon my first re-read of Game of Thrones, Sandor telling Sansa how Gregor was knighted by Rhaegar... interesting Irony there considering how the sack of Kings Landing ended up.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Still don't buy it, sorry. Why wouldn't Varys use the chance to get rid of LF by ratting him out to the king? And as we saw when he got Sansa away from KL, LF knows how to evade Varys's spies.Varys didn't tell Ned Littlefinger lied to him and Cat about the Valyrian Steel dagger either. I don't think Varys just tells people the truth; that's kinda the point. INstead, he tells them fragments of the truth and lets them figure stuff out for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Faceless Bard Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Part 2 ... first re-read of Game of Thrones, that Hodor's real name is Walder...This better get explained down the line and I hopes its not named after Frey !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezzer Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Part 2 ... first re-read of Game of Thrones, that Hodor's real name is Walder...This better get explained down the line and I hopes its not named after Frey !!!Hodor could be Walder Frey's bastard grandson (or was it great-grandson?) after he got laid with Old Nan :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Faceless Bard Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Regarding the Taena - Dorne connection, it seems her and Arianne both took lessons out of the same book .... The first time I read the Arys Chapter, I actually thought, "This sounds a lot like Taena, with I think Jaime regarding, "her (Taena) every move was a seduction ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tze Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 This is kind of random, but it strikes me that Lord Edwyle Stark's unnamed sister (the one whose descendants Catelyn wants Robb to name as his heirs instead of Jon) probably ended up in that particular marriage in the first place because she was already pregnant out of wedlock at the time.She goes to marry a younger son of the junior branch of House Royce---given the status of House Stark, there was probably something hinky going on with that marriage. Marriage to an unattractive (politically, socially, etc.) groom is apparently a somewhat common tactic when a noblewoman is pregnant with someone's bastard (that's why Cersei assumes that Sylvia Santagar must have "a bastard in the belly" when she's sent to marry someone like Lord Estermont, who was incredibly old and already had a ton of heirs). The junior branch of House Royce held no lands before Littlefinger gave them the Gates of the Moon (which is also kind of odd, given that lands seem to be a prerequisite for founding a cadet branch in the first place, but I digress), and this was a younger son of that junior branch, which means that there was no chance of "their" firstborn child inheriting anything---which seems like it would be exactly what people would want if everybody involved knows the new bride is already pregnant with a non-Royce but a "deal" has been struck which involves passing that bastard child off as a legitimate Royce.The junior-branch Royce son gets a wife who's far more highborn than any he'd likely be eligible for elsewise, but with no chance of any Royce holdings "accidentally" passing to the Stark lady's "secretly-a-bastard" firstborn child (as her husband would have had no shot at any holdings). The lady gets honorably married off, her child is not considered a bastard by society at large (and thus, is eligible for a greater range of marriage possibilities than otherwise), and House Stark gets to keep the whole scandal quiet.Not quite sure how that factoid could be relevant (except for the literary irony---it would mean Catelyn was trying to get Robb to skip over a bastard Stark (Jon) in favor of (quite possibly) a technically-bastard Stark line). Also, there's a decent chance (given the timeline) that Lord Edwyle's sister will show up in "The She-Wolves of Winterfell", so we might see the events that led to this marriage play out there.For that matter, though we don't have a full family tree, supposedly one of Lord Edwyle's sister's daughters married a Waynwood, and we know Jon Arryn's sister Alys, Harry the Heir's grandmother, married a Waynwood (Elys Waynwood), and it's entirely possible that Elys Waynwood---and therefore his descendants--was a descendant of the unnamed Stark lady (via the daughter who married the Waynwood). Which could mean, if the speculation that Timett of the Burned Men is actually Harry the Heir's cousin (the son of Harry's mother's older sister, who was carried off by Burned Men), then Timett might be a distant cousin of the Stark children. (Not to mention, it could mean that Catelyn was inadvertently trying to get Robb to name "Harry the Heir" as his own heir.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Varys in AGOT talking to The Ned about who might have poisoned Jon Arryn:The Ned, and I, assumed he was talking about Ser Hugh of the Vale, Jon Arryn's former squire. But he's actually talking about Littlefinger.When I realised this = mind officially blown. The Spider's damn riddling!!Yeah, Vary's statements always take on double and triple meanings on re-read, I had thought the same thing too.Another Varys one happens during a conversation he has in Clash. The scene where they are talking about power being a shadow on the wall and how a small man can cast a very large shadow. It seems like Varys is talking about Tyrion here but he's not, he's talking about another little man - Petyr Baelish. Just before this riddle, they were discussing the death of Ned Stark. We know Cersei and Varys did not want Ned killed. We also learn that Janos and Payne were acting as if they knew it was coming, someone gave them that command. If it wasn't Cersei or Varys, the only person left is LF.Tyrion gets close but doesn't quite pick up on what he's being told here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Faceless Bard Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Wow Tze... with the addition of that line... and the stark connection to Harrenhall through the Whents, and the Sansa / Tyrion Marriage, and the Edmure / Roslin Baby, a lot of the same people stand to inherit multiple lordships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Stark Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 An ah-ha moment for me was when I read about Shae lying in Tywinn's bed. It tripped a memory of the conversation Varys and Tyrion had about the tunnel and how it was made for a previous Hand of the King whose honor would not permit him to be seen frequenting a brothel.Tywinn was that Hand!!!It got my mind wandering. I wonder if Shae wasoriginally intended to be Tywinn's? Who was the knight Bronn took Shae from? Is that how Tywinn knew Tyrion had a camp whore and why he told Tyrion not to take her to Kings' Landing?Did not put this together myself. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Daemon Blackfyre Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Yeah, Vary's statements always take on double and triple meanings on re-read, I had thought the same thing too.Another Varys one happens during a conversation he has in Clash. The scene where they are talking about power being a shadow on the wall and how a small man can cast a very large shadow. It seems like Varys is talking about Tyrion here but he's not, he's talking about another little man - Petyr Baelish. Just before this riddle, they were discussing the death of Ned Stark. We know Cersei and Varys did not want Ned killed. We also learn that Janos and Payne were acting as if they knew it was coming, someone gave them that commend. If it wasn't Cersei or Varys, the only person left is LF.Tyrion gets close but doesn't quite pick up on what he's being told here.Woah, great catch! The Spider is all over it! And I love how Varys just lets Tyrion (with that ego of his) assume that the "small man casting a large shadow" is him.All the while, he's actually talking about Littlefinger organising The Ned's execution. Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Woah, great catch! The Spider is all over it! And I love how Varys just lets Tyrion (with that ego of his) assume that the "small man casting a large shadow" is him.All the while, he's actually talking about Littlefinger organising The Ned's execution. Wow.Lots of great exchanges between the two of them. I think Varys did genuinely like Tyrion but it's pretty impressive just how much he's using Tyrion and even playing with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkley Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I have to say " WOW" to this thread. The most enjoyable of the day.... And informative. You guys have some great minds. Nice one, AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redviper9 Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I completely missed out on the Frey pies until I started reading this forum.Oberyn poisoned Tywin blew my mind when I first read it.Something I noticed on a recent Tyrion re-read (if this has come up before on Tyrion re-read threads, I apologize -- it's been a while since I've kept track of those) was how many times Tyrion is linked to shadows. When Jon first meets him at Winterfell, it's said that Tyrion cast a shadow "as large as any king." Then there's the power riddle Varys poses him in ACoK ("a very small man can cast a very large shadow"). And finally, we have Moqorro telling Tyrion that his shadow is "snarling" in the midst of his flames. I don't know what it means for his arc, but it's something interesting I picked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jslay427 Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 In the Theon sample chapter Theon remembers the torture he took from Ramsay saying "he only took skin unless I begged to have it cut off." No way he asked to have his sword sheathed. So yes, Theons member is intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zupoleon Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 This is kind of random, but it strikes me that Lord Edwyle Stark's unnamed sister (the one whose descendants Catelyn wants Robb to name as his heirs instead of Jon) probably ended up in that particular marriage in the first place because she was already pregnant out of wedlock at the time.She goes to marry a younger son of the junior branch of House Royce---given the status of House Stark, there was probably something hinky going on with that marriage. Marriage to an unattractive (politically, socially, etc.) groom is apparently a somewhat common tactic when a noblewoman is pregnant with someone's bastard (that's why Cersei assumes that Sylvia Santagar must have "a bastard in the belly" when she's sent to marry someone like Lord Estermont, who was incredibly old and already had a ton of heirs). The junior branch of House Royce held no lands before Littlefinger gave them the Gates of the Moon (which is also kind of odd, given that lands seem to be a prerequisite for founding a cadet branch in the first place, but I digress), and this was a younger son of that junior branch, which means that there was no chance of "their" firstborn child inheriting anything---which seems like it would be exactly what people would want if everybody involved knows the new bride is already pregnant with a non-Royce but a "deal" has been struck which involves passing that bastard child off as a legitimate Royce.The junior-branch Royce son gets a wife who's far more highborn than any he'd likely be eligible for elsewise, but with no chance of any Royce holdings "accidentally" passing to the Stark lady's "secretly-a-bastard" firstborn child (as her husband would have had no shot at any holdings). The lady gets honorably married off, her child is not considered a bastard by society at large (and thus, is eligible for a greater range of marriage possibilities than otherwise), and House Stark gets to keep the whole scandal quiet.Not quite sure how that factoid could be relevant (except for the literary irony---it would mean Catelyn was trying to get Robb to skip over a bastard Stark (Jon) in favor of (quite possibly) a technically-bastard Stark line). Also, there's a decent chance (given the timeline) that Lord Edwyle's sister will show up in "The She-Wolves of Winterfell", so we might see the events that led to this marriage play out there.For that matter, though we don't have a full family tree, supposedly one of Lord Edwyle's sister's daughters married a Waynwood, and we know Jon Arryn's sister Alys, Harry the Heir's grandmother, married a Waynwood (Elys Waynwood), and it's entirely possible that Elys Waynwood---and therefore his descendants--was a descendant of the unnamed Stark lady (via the daughter who married the Waynwood). Which could mean, if the speculation that Timett of the Burned Men is actually Harry the Heir's cousin (the son of Harry's mother's older sister, who was carried off by Burned Men), then Timett might be a distant cousin of the Stark children. (Not to mention, it could mean that Catelyn was inadvertently trying to get Robb to name "Harry the Heir" as his own heir.)Hmmm, I wonder if there is any possibility that the unnamed sister you speak of is the pregnant woman from Bran's vision? She is seen praying for a son to bring her vengeance. Perhaps the circumstances surrounding the bastard in her belly could have prompted such a prayer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch176 Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I have to say " WOW" to this thread. The most enjoyable of the day.... And informative. You guys have some great minds. Nice one, AMI second that, great thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamocil Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Something I didn't notice when reading the books (but which was pointed out to me) are the parallels between the Lightbringer story and the births of Dany/Jon/Tyrion. Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer on his 3rd attempt, but had to kill Nissa Nissa to do so. Dany, Jon & Tyrion are all 3rd children who killed their mothers in childbirth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch176 Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Something I didn't notice when reading the books (but which was pointed out to me) are the parallels between the Lightbringer story and the births of Dany/Jon/Tyrion. Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer on his 3rd attempt, but had to kill Nissa Nissa to do so. Dany, Jon & Tyrion are all 3rd children who killed their mothers in childbirth.And there you have your Three Heads of the Dragon ladies and gentlemen!Nice point that I hadn't noticed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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