From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVII

[Elba the Intoner]

There's been a lot of speculation about whether Sweetrobin could be LF's child and I do think there's a lot of evidence that it could be, but nothing determinative. Going on this speculation, I don't think it matters for LF's plans whether he knows the child is his or not because nobody else suspects and LF's legitimacy in the Vale right now comes as his position as regent for Sweetrobin, whom everybody believes is the true heir to the Vale. Of, course as KRBD said, it makes it especially evil if LF knows and is still planning on killing his own child, but I am holding out hope that for now LF needs to keep Sweetrobin alive long enough for the Sansa-Harry the Heir wedding to take place so LF will not be able to kill him just yet.

[Mahaut]

Mahaut - that's interesting about the sigificance of geese. Aphrodite was a goddess of love and beauty, and Juno a goddess of marriage and rulership. Maybe Sansa is meant to combine all this? Also, the French expression seems to be a good description of early AGOT Sansa, at least how she is portrayed (even then I can see there is a lot more to her) - she certainly did receive a prudish education from the Westerosi equivalent of a nun. In US English, the expression "silly goose" is NOT a compliment, it means exactly what it says.

We also say that in French: bête comme une oie... woodcock, turkey and hen are also used as insults toward women.

Geese, btw, are MEEEAN. I've heard of them being used as guard animals. You do NOT want to mess with them.

Yes that’s true, I was “bitten” by a goose once as a kid :P .

I have wondered if LF is SR's real father

I agree wholeheartedly with you on this. There are many clues pointing in that direction.

[Kittykatknits]

<amazing post on clothes>

Thank you for putting that together. I knew some of this but never had it put together this way before. It shows a much stronger pattern with her clothes than I realized.

Rapsie what a great post on the dress symbolism. I know it was discussed throughout the Pawn to Player reread but having it summed up all in one place really makes it easier to see how it is all related to her character growth and changes. It just so happens that Sansa's still liking pretty dresses in AFFC keeps coming up as an example of hos Sansa hasn't changed at all. SandSnake No. 9 just made this very point in the "Whom will Arya marry" thread. When Petyr told Sansa/Alayne to change her dress because it is too Tully, does she cry and whine and say "no, this is the prettiest dress and I want to keep it on"? No. She goes and makes a very mature choice to wear a simpler dress with simpler jewelry, and the dress recalls Arya's acorn dress that she wears at Lady Smallwood's keep and the dress Cersei chooses to wear when she goes to the High Septon. But because Sansa, gasp, still likes pretty dresses in AFFC she hasn't changed at all and is still the same snobby biotch she was back in AGOT since, you know, GRRM does not write realistic 3 dimensional characters who change as their story goes on! Okay, rant over.

I left the thread at a few points. I do think there is a tendency to dislike a character to the point that any analysis becomes impossible. Case in point is your example above.

Now my rant is over.

When Alayne is coaxing Sweetrobin to get dressed and eat his breakfast, it is mentioned that SR "had a good healthy fear of his stepfather." Now maybe that means that Petyr doesn't want SR to act like a spoiled brat, but perhaps SR has a spidey sense that LF doesn't wish him well. Sansa, and Yohn Royce, clearly DO want SR to act like a boy his age should, but it is plausible that SR knows that LF just wants him out of the way.

In my experience with kids, they often have a very good spidey sense when it comes to underlying tensions or feelings within adults, even if they do no understand the complexity behind it. It sometimes surprises me at how good they are at picking up tension, anger, anxiety, or whatnot from adults in the room. Or, even start to mirror those feelings. So, I think you may have a good point in SR's spidey sense (love that term) when it comes to him.

[brashcandy]

Going to start the new thread in a bit folks. See you all in V.18.

[1234567]

At this rate (including the re-read threads) we shall soon be rivaling R+L=J!

Also great symbolism in the Birds guys and thank Kittykat. Sigh. I really really miss the like button. :(

Given Sansa's unrealised choice between her father's wishes and her own personal choice in who to love in the first book, I wonder if we shall see Sansa getting this choice again at a later stage.

Initially she wanted to stay with Joff (before she realised he was evil incarnate) and rebelled against her father. Similarly she was excited about court and going to experience life in the capital. By the end of the first book though, she is desperate to get home to Winterfell and her family.

She like the rest of her siblings is in hiding with a false identity or MIA in Bran's case (If R+L=J is true then Jon Snow is counted in their too). I think it will be unlikely that all the Stark children end up being revealed as their true selves. While Bran and Arya are probably the odds on favourite to stay "lost", I wonder if Sansa will have a choice to make in terms of revealing her identity like in the initial book. Will she have to choose again between her own desires and her Stark heritage.

A recent reading of the GRRM wiki has spurred these musings. :)

[Houndbird]

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At this rate (including the re-read threads) we shall soon be rivaling R+L=J!

Also great symbolism in the Birds guys and thank Kittykat. Sigh. I really really miss the like button. :(

That's so cool. Love Sansa and these threads. They've really enriched my understanding on Rereading the books.