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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVII


brashcandy

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Kinda random, but I figured I might get my answer here instead of making a new Thread.

Has Sansa heard about the incest? Sansa was a prisoner and heard mostly only what they wanted her to hear. So, if she never reflected it or heard it in story, I think she might still think Joffery is Robert's trueborn son.

Nothing on her thoughts that reflects she knows about Joffrey. She was kept on the dark in KL and was relatively isolated in the Vale so most of what she knew comes through LF.

But she might learn of it now that she is down from the Eeyrie.

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Nothing on her thoughts that reflects she knows about Joffrey. She was kept on the dark in KL and was relatively isolated in the Vale so most of what she knew comes through LF.

But she might learn of it now that she is down from the Eeyrie.

Yeah, that's more juicy gossip Randa might be eager to talk about. Sansa also has Cersei's recollections of her birthing experiences, when Robert would go hunting and no one could keep Jaime out of the room. I suspect this might be what confirms the suspicions to her if indeed it's brought up in conversation.

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I have found and been following the PtP Rereading and rethinking threads and find them so enlightening with regard not only to Sansa but to all aspects of the books. It really brings a new dimension to my understanding on Rereading. Thank you all so much. I've read other content on the site but nothing comes close to your analysis and discussion. It's serious and light hearted at times too.

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Has anyone read the essay by Caroline Spector "Power and a feminism in Westeros" in Beyond the Wall:Exploring GRRM A song of ice and fire? It describes Sansa as still being a pawn, and unable to "recognize the gap between myth and reality" which the writer says cripples her. Everything she discusses in the article is so thoroughly debunked by this thread that I wish she had read it. It makes her writing look so superficial and shallow. Not recognizing Sansa's growth at all. she ends by saying Sansa remains powerless by not accepting the world as it is and not as the comforting one the stories have told her. AAarg!

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Kinda random, but I figured I might get my answer here instead of making a new Thread.

Has Sansa heard about the incest? Sansa was a prisoner and heard mostly only what they wanted her to hear. So, if she never reflected it or heard it in story, I think she might still think Joffery is Robert's trueborn son.

She reflects on hearing gossip from Laundry Women at the well, but apart from her short time with the Tyrell ladies, she is ostracized and completely on her own. She gets treated as a pariah.

Has anyone read the essay by Caroline Spector "Power and a feminism in Westeros" in Beyond the Wall:Exploring GRRM A song of ice and fire? It describes Sansa as still being a pawn, and unable to "recognize the gap between myth and reality" which the writer says cripples her. Everything she discusses in the article is so thoroughly debunked by this thread that I wish she had read it. It makes her writing look so superficial and shallow. Not recognizing Sansa's growth at all. she ends by saying Sansa remains powerless by not accepting the world as it is and not as the comforting one the stories have told her. AAarg!

I haven't read it but I wouldn't be surprised at that stance. There seems to be a strong feeling amongst 2nd Generation Feminists about how a woman should behave and if they do not fit that model, then they are somehow not embracing being a woman. Passivity and quite strength, especially inner strength, are very sold on seldom recognized or lauded.

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Has anyone read the essay by Caroline Spector "Power and a feminism in Westeros" in Beyond the Wall:Exploring GRRM A song of ice and fire? It describes Sansa as still being a pawn, and unable to "recognize the gap between myth and reality" which the writer says cripples her. Everything she discusses in the article is so thoroughly debunked by this thread that I wish she had read it. It makes her writing look so superficial and shallow. Not recognizing Sansa's growth at all. she ends by saying Sansa remains powerless by not accepting the world as it is and not as the comforting one the stories have told her. AAarg!

No, I haven't read the essay, but it's a shame if that is what is passing for critical insight into Sansa's character.

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Has anyone read the essay by Caroline Spector "Power and a feminism in Westeros" in Beyond the Wall:Exploring GRRM A song of ice and fire? It describes Sansa as still being a pawn, and unable to "recognize the gap between myth and reality" which the writer says cripples her. Everything she discusses in the article is so thoroughly debunked by this thread that I wish she had read it. It makes her writing look so superficial and shallow. Not recognizing Sansa's growth at all. she ends by saying Sansa remains powerless by not accepting the world as it is and not as the comforting one the stories have told her. AAarg!

I heard about it, mainly from angry Sansa fans, I did see some quotes and yeah she came out as pretty blind when it comes to the character. I am not surprised. A lot of people when they talk about power, they only see the so called "masculin" power, and think anything that has something to do with traditionally female roles is bound to be useless, stupid, weak etc....

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I heard about it, mainly from angry Sansa fans, I did see some quotes and yeah she came out as pretty blind when it comes to the character. I am not surprised. A lot of people when they talk about power, they only see the so called "masculin" power, and think anything that has something to do with traditionally female roles is bound to be useless, stupid, weak etc....

Yes. It made me pretty angry too. Her further arguments that Arya takes control of her life while Sansa "floats passively" through her perils in life without taking into account their very different situations is short sighted IMO.. I love Arya too but to see her as positive and" bending but not breaking" and developing ways to survive and denying that Sansa does just this too really upset me.

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Yes. It made me pretty angry too. Her further arguments that Arya takes control of her life while Sansa "floats passively" through her perils in life without taking into account their very different situations is short sighted IMO.. I love Arya too but to see her as positive and" bending but not breaking" and developing ways to survive and denying that Sansa does just this too really upset me.

Which proves she hasn't actually read the novels, so much as skimmed.

Looking at Arya's arc closely, we can see that she is consumed by her feelings of powerlessness and how they propel her into becoming basically a child soldier wíth what looks like PTSD due to her horrific experiences. Also, Arya realised in ACOK that the power she has she derives from others, which is why she goes down a dark path to gain agency or sorts, while Sansa in turn is learning from Littlefinger in how to act behind the scenes.

Power, the nature of power and who holds the power are main themes of the novels, after all.

If someone has a link to the essay it may be an interesting thing to examine and discuss. And most likely disagree with. ;)

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Yes. It made me pretty angry too. Her further arguments that Arya takes control of her life while Sansa "floats passively" through her perils in life without taking into account their very different situations is short sighted IMO.. I love Arya too but to see her as positive and" bending but not breaking" and developing ways to survive and denying that Sansa does just this too really upset me.

And this is why rereads are so beneficial, as well obviously being open minded and critical about the myriad ways in which women can be empowered and effect change. In the Arya reread we've recently been discussing how Arya's resort to violence is very much a reaction against the crippling powerlessness that she feels and wants to avoid at all costs.

Ninja'd by LS :)

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Has anyone read the essay by Caroline Spector "Power and a feminism in Westeros" in Beyond the Wall:Exploring GRRM A song of ice and fire? It describes Sansa as still being a pawn, and unable to "recognize the gap between myth and reality" which the writer says cripples her. Everything she discusses in the article is so thoroughly debunked by this thread that I wish she had read it. It makes her writing look so superficial and shallow. Not recognizing Sansa's growth at all. she ends by saying Sansa remains powerless by not accepting the world as it is and not as the comforting one the stories have told her. AAarg!

Disappointed but not surprised. Is this online or in a book collection? I'm tempted to go looking for it but not sure I'm in the mood to either.

I haven't read it but I wouldn't be surprised at that stance. There seems to be a strong feeling amongst 2nd Generation Feminists about how a woman should behave and if they do not fit that model, then they are somehow not embracing being a woman. Passivity and quite strength, especially inner strength, are very sold on recognized or lauded.

Yes, I completely agree with you. I have noticed the correlation between those who subsribe to 2nd generation feminism (whether they know it or not) and feelings about Sansa as a character. I can't remember if you were part of the discussion or not, but there was a thread last summer that was rather heated and revolved around Sansa and Tyrion (shocking I know!) and it took several pages, but someone else finally made the connection between judgments made and the adherence to 2nd generation beliefs. I hadn't made the connection before but it made complete sense once someone else drew the needed dots.

I think 2nd generation feminism has its strengths and was much needed for its time but the overall feminist movement has evolved and changed over the years. Personally, I strongly belief that every one carries sexist and misogynistic beliefs within themselves. We are a part of our culture after all and our culture is a sexist one. The result can be a reinforcement of a certain ideal of what strength looks like or what makes a woman strong and it sadly looks an awful lot like masculine traits. And I might ruffle some feathers when I say this, but I think an unwillingness to examine one's own beliefs - leading to the idea of what strength or heroism or what have you looks like absolutely stinks of privilege to me. In this way, a 2nd generation feminist can become a very part of the culture she/he claims to fight against, reinforcing the values rather than attempting to change them.

/rant

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If someone has a link to the essay it may be an interesting thing to examine and discuss. And most likely disagree with. ;)

I downloaded it on my kindle. Am clueless on how to link. Hope some one can help. It will be interesting to read people on this threads views on it. You are so good at analyzing!

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Which proves she hasn't actually read the novels, so much as skimmed.

Looking at Arya's arc closely, we can see that she is consumed by her feelings of powerlessness and how they propel her into becoming basically a child soldier wíth what looks like PTSD due to her horrific experiences. Also, Arya realised in ACOK that the power she has she derives from others, which is why she goes down a dark path to gain agency or sorts, while Sansa in turn is learning from Littlefinger in how to act behind the scenes.

Power, the nature of power and who holds the power are main themes of the novels, after all.

If someone has a link to the essay it may be an interesting thing to examine and discuss. And most likely disagree with. ;)

And this is why rereads are so beneficial, as well obviously being open minded and critical about the myriad ways in which women can be empowered and effect change. In the Arya reread we've recently been discussing how Arya's resort to violence is very much a reaction against the crippling powerlessness that she feels and wants to avoid at all costs.

First - sorry about the double post y'all.

I call Sansa's story as being one of the path back to agency and I'd say this applies just as much to Arya as well.It's kinda what like Jon said back in game, different roads can lead back to the same castle. Well, Arya and Sansa took different paths but the reasoning behind them are the same - agency. Arya is using violence as a method while Sansa is using politics.

On a related note, I think some of the interpretation about Arya in both Clash and Storm has to do with the fact that her story is very physical. She's traveling with Yoren then going to Harrenhal then she leaves Harrenhal and travels with the BWB and so on. Lots of movement and lots of doing, right? But. she's just as much stuck as Sansa is. For all her travels, it sure looks like she's on a road to nowhere. She wants to go home just as much as Sansa does but she's going to have no more success at it. The stationary nature of Sansa's story is more obvious as she is literally in a single physical location - KL. Arya may be physically moving but she's like a hamster in a cage - she isn't getting anywhere.

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Good points all.

Also, you know, isn't it sad that feminists are judgemental over a work of fiction that takes pains to ask questions about women and power, and women's place is society? We have everything from Cersei's "ridden like a horse only to be discarded" conversation with Sansa (two women talking about feminist issues, can someone say "passing the Bechdel test?) to Dany's musing on the woman vs the Queen, to Arya and Brienne and their issues with wanting what only men can have to Sansa's musings on how she is only a claim and that nobody will love her for herself. Or for that matter Asha's struggle for leadership and her relationship with Qarl the Maid. All poignant descriptions of different issues women are facing in Westeros and what women have faced in the real world, historically.

And it is told in a setting framed by power and what power means, which makes it instrinsically linked with everything feminism stands for. You cannot have equiality without knowing here the power lies and how it is expressed, and ASOIAF is one long examination of power.

It also cannot be said that GRRM is valuing traditionally male values over female, since he goes to great lengths to properly describe the horrors of war and what it does to people. The dragons aren't described as lovely magical creatures of cuteness either, but they are realistically described predators which are dangerous and potential equivalents of WMDs.

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Which proves she hasn't actually read the novels, so much as skimmed.

Looking at Arya's arc closely, we can see that she is consumed by her feelings of powerlessness and how they propel her into becoming basically a child soldier wíth what looks like PTSD due to her horrific experiences. Also, Arya realised in ACOK that the power she has she derives from others, which is why she goes down a dark path to gain agency or sorts, while Sansa in turn is learning from Littlefinger in how to act behind the scenes.

Power, the nature of power and who holds the power are main themes of the novels, after all.

If someone has a link to the essay it may be an interesting thing to examine and discuss. And most likely disagree with. ;)

I don't think it's available online, you have to buy the collection "Beyond the Wall" to read it.

It's a mediocre at best essay anyway, I've seen way better posts on this topic here numerous times and I didn't have to pay to read them. No real insight, it mostly says obvious things and also has some really inaccurate claims not just about Sansa. And it's baffling that an essay on this topic doesn't analyse Catelyn and her plotline at all.

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The Caroline Spector article is in a Google Books Preview here.

I was cross befor reading it but given the innacuracies involving what actually happens in the story, I'm not sure she has even given the book more than a cursory once over.

What's interesting is GRRM is trying to create a semi-realistic medieval society, yet Caroline Spector raises the same old chestnuts about Sansa fighting back, without actually giving an example of what she could have done that was not likely to result in death. She gets the Trident incident woefully wrong, describing it as a scene of male dominance, when actually it is a supreme example of Cersei getting her wishes and realisation that Robert is a complete coward.

My favourite part of her essay, which manages IMHO to show just how wrong she gets it, is the following:

If the usual image of the knight is a man of courage and valor, Martin subverts that image with brutes like Sandor Clegane.

The irony of that statement is amazing.

She also goes on about Arya rejecting her gender, when it is clear on the Arya re-read, that she very firmly identifies with being female.

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The Caroline Spector article is in a Google Books Preview here.

I was cross befor reading it but given the innacuracies involving what actually happens in the story, I'm not sure she has even given the book more than a cursory once over.

What's interesting is GRRM is trying to create a semi-realistic medieval society, yet Caroline Spector raises the same old chestnuts about Sansa fighting back, without actually giving an example of what she could have done that was not likely to result in death. She gets the Trident incident woefully wrong, describing it as a scene of male dominance, when actually it is a supreme example of Cersei getting her wishes and realisation that Robert is a complete coward.

My favourite part of her essay, which manages IMHO to show just how wrong she gets it, is the following:

The irony of that statement is amazing.

She also goes on about Arya rejecting her gender, when it is clear on the Arya re-read, that she very firmly identifies with being female.

Thank you. Now I want to read it for hilarious sakes.

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I don't think it's available online, you have to buy the collection "Beyond the Wall" to read it.

It's a mediocre at best essay anyway, I've seen way better posts on this topic here numerous times and I didn't have to pay to read them. No real insight, it mostly says obvious things and also has some really inaccurate claims not just about Sansa. And it's baffling that an essay on this topic doesn't analyse Catelyn and her plotline at all.

The Caroline Spector article is in a Google Books Preview here.

I was cross befor reading it but given the innacuracies involving what actually happens in the story, I'm not sure she has even given the book more than a cursory once over.

What's interesting is GRRM is trying to create a semi-realistic medieval society, yet Caroline Spector raises the same old chestnuts about Sansa fighting back, without actually giving an example of what she could have done that was not likely to result in death. She gets the Trident incident woefully wrong, describing it as a scene of male dominance, when actually it is a supreme example of Cersei getting her wishes and realisation that Robert is a complete coward.

My favourite part of her essay, which manages IMHO to show just how wrong she gets it, is the following:

The irony of that statement is amazing.

She also goes on about Arya rejecting her gender, when it is clear on the Arya re-read, that she very firmly identifies with being female.

Off to look at the online version now. For those who actually want to pay money for the entire thing, it can be found on Amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Wall-Exploring-Martins-Thrones/dp/1936661748. Turns out this is the collection that has the essay written by Ran and Linda on Romanticism.

Also, David Selig, completely agree. Haven't read it but if there is no mention of Catelyn and her storyline, the essay is missing the mark.

Off to go reading. And then to either laugh or cry or some combination.

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The Caroline Spector article is in a Google Books Preview here....

I read a snippet about Arya and was quite impressed how wrong she was. Arya makes plans? Envisions herself as Nymeria to fight for freedom? Tricks Jaqen into staging a rebellion in Harrenhall? Yeah yeah and Tywin defecates gold too...

Rather like David Selig I find a better quality of ideas on the boards than in the essays, ok you have to search and maybe follow a thread for a few pages to see an idea developed but people are going to challenge you if you misremember or misinterpret.

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