From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVII

[Mladen]

And there we find a fine solution for San/San`s problems to be together. Two people who can`t be more different are so powerfully drawn to each other, it`s amazing how GRRM is building their relationship basically out of nothing. But, the true question is how capable both of them are to change and to influence the other one?

In Sansa, it`s like layering the cake, one layer at the time. It seems to me that with each scene her fear of him is slowly disappearing. But, it`s one scene at the time, so by the time she arrives in Vale, she feels such nostalgic for him, that it`s so romantically amusing. As for him, his rough exterior hides what is essential in their romance. Deep insecurity, pain and mistrust to all living people. And that`s where the two of them found each other. No matter how different they are externally, deep down they are two parts of the same story. Wounded animal(hound or wolf) searching for kindness and love.

Deep down in my gut, as much as they belong to each other, I see martin separating them somehow. I am not sure how, but I believe that Sansa`s road is pretty clear - to become a Queen Cersei has never been. And yes, it is sad(even for a guy)

P.S. Ladies, will we have another projects to write? Any ideas, I`d love to do it...

P.P.S. About essay everyone is buzzing today, i mean it`s piece of Joffrey...Read it, hate it...

[Daphne23]

This seems for some reason to be a common slur against feminists and working career women of the past. being so "unfeminine" they have to be lesbians. Which makes you wonder, does being a lesbian make you unfeminine or is being unfeminine what turns you lesbian? /snark off

I read a ridiculous sample of an anti-feminist book the other day which asserted something similar, that feminists are 'less attractive' than other women and that's why they're feminists. Because I didn't fully understand feminism or call myself feminist until I was 20/21, this made me wonder if there was a sudden dip in my attractiveness around that point as feminism corroded my features... !!

For those as irritated as I was by the essay in 'Beyond the Wall', here's a fantastic blogpost about Sansa as an antidote (I highly recommend this blog; the author deals with a lot of the issues recently discussed on this thread about feminine women being devalued and not seen as 'strong' in popular culture: http://feministfiction.com/2012/05/10/in-defense-of-sansa-stark/ (Think I may have posted this link before somewhere on this board, so apologies if I'm repeating myself!)

[Lummel]

...In the final analysis, it's important to recognize how each woman utilizes their respective strengths in whatever struggles they may face, and to stop promoting the idea that feminine characters like Sansa are inherently inferior and inadequate.

...Sansa's lack of agency is the most glaringly obvious example, but she is far from being the only victim of circumstances. I think the whole idea of what is agency, who has it, who appears to have it but really doesn't, is one of the themes of the whole series.

I link these two together simply because we have reached that point in rereading Tyrion when we think about Olenna Tyrell. Olenna strikes me as a useful counterpoint to Sansa but also a nice variation on ideas of power.

Olenna has no formal power, she has no physical force, she is old, she has no sexual allure or potency (ok in cultural mainstream terms), nor does she exercise power due to technical knowledge and expertise etc etc but in terms of agency she is a colossus and achieves what myriads of men and armies and whatnot can't. There's no suggestion that in her youth Olenna wielded a sword or commanded armies or was inspired by masculine role models or wanted to be boyish.

In other words in terms of power relations ASOIAF is realistic and not a stylised world in which the masculine is strong and the feminine is weak and subordinate. The difference between Sansa in ACOK and Olenna in ASOS is not one of gender but of networks. Sansa's problem is not that she is a woman, likes nice dresses and talks with courtesy, her problem is that she is isolated.

[Elba the Intoner]

I link these two together simply because we have reached that point in rereading Tyrion when we think about Olenna Tyrell. Olenna strikes me as a useful counterpoint to Sansa but also a nice variation on ideas of power.

Olenna has no formal power, she has no physical force, she is old, she has no sexual allure or potency (ok in cultural mainstream terms), nor does she exercise power due to technical knowledge and expertise etc etc but in terms of agency she is a colossus and achieves what myriads of men and armies and whatnot can't. There's no suggestion that in her youth Olenna wielded a sword or commanded armies or was inspired by masculine role models or wanted to be boyish.

In other words in terms of power relations ASOIAF is realistic and not a stylised world in which the masculine is strong and the feminine is weak and subordinate. The difference between Sansa in ACOK and Olenna in ASOS is not one of gender but of networks. Sansa's problem is not that she is a woman, likes nice dresses and talks with courtesy, her problem is that she is isolated.

I could not agree more with this! That's why it makes me crazy when I see the negative Sansa comments about how she doesn't do anything in King's Landing, which is not true, but what exactly can she do when she has no alliances whatsoever? She does make use of what little she has with Dontos and the Hound before he leaves.

I also have to say that I really do like Olenna as a character even knowing that she likely threw Sansa under the bus when she poisoned Joffrey expecting that Sansa likely would be accused. It's because of her sass, wit and how she attains power for herself. I was sad that the Willas-Sansa marriage didn't work out mainly because Sansa could have used a smart mentor like Olenna in her corner.

And though I know we are not supposed to mention the show in this section of the forum I do think there's some relevance to this discussion in how they are portraying the women on the show, which is that I am frustrated by how they are completely portraying the female characters in the dichotomy that you all have been discussing here. The "right" way to be a female is to be a cool, kickass, ninja girl who is not into being feminine and the ladylike characters are mocked as "stupid" or ineffectual. Grrrrr!!

Great discussion all! I haven't had a chance to participate too much but have been following along as much as possible. And I do think it's especially awesome to have some men in on this discussion too! :thumbsup: Now I am off to go read those essays that have been linked in the last few pages.

[Elba the Intoner]

KRBD thanks so much for the Julia Serano link. I clicked on the whipping Girl link and read Julia's introduction to that book. Here's the direct link for anyone interested. I think this part of her introduction states perfectly what we've been discussing here:

The intent of this book is to debunk many of the myths and misconceptions that people have about transsexual women, as well as the subject of gender in general. By turning the tables on the rest of the world and examining why so many different facets of our society have set out to dehumanize trans women, I hope to show that we are ridiculed and dismissed not merely because we “transgress binary gender norms,” as many transgender activists and gender theorists have proposed, but rather because we “choose” to be women rather than men. The fact that we identify and live as women, despite being born male and having inherited male privilege, challenges both those in our society who wish to glorify maleness and masculinity, as well as those who frame the struggles faced by other women and queers solely in terms of male and heterosexual privilege.

Examining the societal-wide disdain for trans women also brings to light an important yet often overlooked aspect of traditional sexism: that it targets people not only for their femaleness, but also for their expressions of femininity. Today, while it is generally considered to be offensive or prejudice to openly discriminate against someone for being female, discriminating against someone’s femininity is still considered to be fair game. The idea that masculinity is strong, tough, and natural while femininity is weak, vulnerable, and artificial continues to proliferate even among people who believe that women and men are equals. And in a world where femininity is so regularly dismissed, perhaps no form of gendered expression is considered to be more artificial and more suspect than male and transgender expressions of femininity.

I have called this book Whipping Girl to highlight the ways in which people who are feminine, whether they be female, male, and/or transgender, are almost universally demeaned with respect to their masculine counterparts. This scapegoating of those who express femininity can be seen not only in the male-centered mainstream, but in the queer community, where “effeminate” gay men have been accused of “holding back” the gay rights movement, and where femme dykes have been accused of being the “Uncle Toms” of the lesbian movement. Even many feminists buy into traditionally sexist notions about femininity—that it is artificial, contrived, and frivolous; that it is a ruse that only serves the purpose of attracting and appeasing the desires of men. What I hope to show in this book is that the real ruse being played is not by those of us who happen to be feminine, but rather by those who place inferior meanings onto femininity. The idea that femininity is subordinate to masculinity dismisses women as a whole and shapes virtually all popular myths and stereotypes about trans women.

I have not read this book yet, but I am hoping to do so in the near future.

[Lummel]

I could not agree more with this! That's why it makes me crazy when I see the negative Sansa comments about how she doesn't do anything in King's Landing, which is not true, but what exactly can she do when she has no alliances whatsoever? She does make use of what little she has with Dontos and the Hound before he leaves...

I agree about Olenna, she is one of those minor characters sketched out very deftly who really make the series what it is.

Main point. I think it comes back to a profound misunderstanding about power. I do believe that Lyanna Stark was talking about how power is a central theme in ASOIAF. It's very easy to misread the Gregor Cleganes, the Syrios, the Randyll Tarlys as powerful and to think that muscles+sword+big=kill people=power. To my mind well, this just isn't realpolitik, and secondly it runs opposite to what the book tells us about power.

Gregor being gregor isn't powerful. He's just a mad dog psychopath who on his own would have been, sooner or later, run down and hanged. Gregor Clegane is powerful because he is Tywin's dog. Power is actually about networks, legitimacy in the eyes of followers, relationships and Varys' riddle, it is this illusory thing this shadow on the wall, the leader has to project an illusion that persuades and wins people to follow.

Sansa is outside of that which is why she is weak. A better line of criticism might be could Sansa have built up her own network, I think eventually maybe yes, but as a youngster and the daughter of an attainted traitor circumstances are against her.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I agree about Olenna, she is one of those minor characters sketched out very deftly who really make the series what it is.

Main point. I think it comes back to a profound misunderstanding about power. I do believe that Lyanna Stark was talking about how power is a central theme in ASOIAF. It's very easy to misread the Gregor Cleganes, the Syrios, the Randyll Tarlys as powerful and to think that muscles+sword+big=kill people=power. To my mind well, this just isn't realpolitik, and secondly it runs opposite to what the book tells us about power.

Gregor being gregor isn't powerful. He's just a mad dog psychopath who on his own would have been, sooner or later, run down and hanged. Gregor Clegane is powerful because he is Tywin's dog. Power is actually about networks, legitimacy in the eyes of followers, relationships and Varys' riddle, it is this illusory thing this shadow on the wall, the leader has to project an illusion that persuades and wins people to follow.

Sansa is outside of that which is why she is weak. A better line of criticism might be could Sansa have built up her own network, I think eventually maybe yes, but as a youngster and the daughter of an attainted traitor circumstances are against her.

On this, more later, but right now it occurs to me that the court in King's Landing isn't really typical in some ways. Most queens not only had a bevy of ladies-in-waiting, they had "maids of honor" - young girls whom they were expected to train in manners and etiquette. Anne Boleyn was sent first to the (female) Regent of the Netherlands, then to the Queen of France, and she ended by serving as a lady-in-waiting to her predecessor Catherine of Aragon. Under normal circumstances Cersei would have had more female companions than just her serving maids. Queen Elia had Ashara Dayne and someone else - Joanna Lannister? - as a lady-in-waiting. Sansa would normally have other girls her age hanging around the Queen being trained in etiquette, music, dancing, etc. rather like a finishing school. Cersei had no female companions, except for Taena Merryweather later on, which I think was not the norm but rather deliberately set up by Cersei so that there would be fewer prying eyes to catch her in an affair with Jaime. And Cersei didn't like other women anyway - witness her fury that Melara Hetherspoon wanted to marry Jaime (and Cersei probably pushed Melara down a well!). I doubt many Westerosi noblewomen want their daughters trained in being snotty, bitter, and using that weapon between their legs. :D

Great ladies on Catelyn's and Alerie Tyrell's level also took in women attendants - I surmise Catelyn had some lady attendants at one time because she mentions taking great ladies into her service when she ponders how exactly to accept Brienne. Margaery's little flock of girl cousins was actually a very normal set-up for a girl of high nobility. Sansa could have had friends other than Jeyne - probably girls like Alys Karstark and Wylla Manderly would be staying at Winterfell for a year or two, being taught household management by Catelyn and sharing Sansa's lessons with her septa (the latter probably would have driven Alys Karstark up the wall!).

Even the wife of a minor northern lord - Sybelle Glover - had a bedmaid for company and to look after her clothes, etc. Sansa was brought up in what seems to be unusual isolation for a girl of her class; I think this was for the sake of the story, and maybe overprotectiveness by Ned and Cat, but it left her without the experience of having to make friends who weren't, in a sense, ready-made (Jeyne Poole was the same-aged daughter of Winterfell's steward and therefore a "prepackaged" friend). I can see Sansa learning how to make friends with women her age with Myranda and Mya.

[Lummel]

Yes I think that's a good observation. I remember a thread, some years ago, in which we were talking about how Catelyn seemed to be fairly isolated in the north, there was no sense of there being a court and ladies in waiting and hawking that you get from Margaergy and her gaggle of girls. That might be because the north is just so big and empty, you ride for days and you are still in the middle of nowhere, I feel exhausted just typing about it, maybe too because Catelyn was a southerner.

I think like you say there could be an element of this being for the sake of the story, GRRM realising that things are really going to spiral out of control if every noble woman has her circle of three or four ladies, although Sansa does have Jeyne Poole. Your point about Cersei makes excellent sense, though I had the impression that a couple of her servants in AFFC had been with her for a while and ...wait a moment, didn't Cersei kill her childhood friend :laugh: How to win friends and influence people, we can safely say, was not a book that made a huge impression on Cersei.

But yes, I suspect that Sansa's rise won't be about her getting a sword and learning how to kick someone in the jaw, it will be about making friends, gaining favours, winning influence. There's no shortage of men with swords in Westeros, that's not what the story needs to achieve resolution.

[Blisscraft]

Yes I think that's a good observation. I remember a thread, some years ago, in which we were talking about how Catelyn seemed to be fairly isolated in the north, there was no sense of there being a court and ladies in waiting and hawking that you get from Margaergy and her gaggle of girls. That might be because the north is just so big and empty, you ride for days and you are still in the middle of nowhere, I feel exhausted just typing about it, maybe too because Catelyn was a southerner.

-----

But yes, I suspect that Sansa's rise won't be about her getting a sword and learning how to kick someone in the jaw, it will be about making friends, gaining favours, winning influence. There's no shortage of men with swords in Westeros, that's not what the story needs to achieve resolution.

I love this! :lol:

[Ragnorak]

I agree about Olenna, she is one of those minor characters sketched out very deftly who really make the series what it is.

Main point. I think it comes back to a profound misunderstanding about power. I do believe that Lyanna Stark was talking about how power is a central theme in ASOIAF. It's very easy to misread the Gregor Cleganes, the Syrios, the Randyll Tarlys as powerful and to think that muscles+sword+big=kill people=power. To my mind well, this just isn't realpolitik, and secondly it runs opposite to what the book tells us about power.

<snip>

Lummel, that is just dead on and well said.

Olenna also refused a marriage to a Targaryen prince. She chose a "lesser" marriage by status and the appearance of power in favor of a circumstance where she could wield actual power (and have happiness that may not be all that separate of an issue.)

[Lyanna Stark]

But yes, I suspect that Sansa's rise won't be about her getting a sword and learning how to kick someone in the jaw, it will be about making friends, gaining favours, winning influence. There's no shortage of men with swords in Westeros, that's not what the story needs to achieve resolution.

Doesn't this also reflect what Dany is facing in ADWD, that conquering is easy, but ruling and building something (growing the proverbial olives) is hard.

Successfully ruling is not just about having lots of guys with swords, or dragons or even a really old bloodline, but what you can do with what you've got. (Ties in nicely with Tyrion who is better at things when he is doing, not being, eh? ) And also how to make things last. Tywin used brute force and fear, and his legacy is crumbling down. Ned's approach was totally different, and lives on in a different capacity.

[Lummel]

Well you know Lyanna, the more central a theme is the more it will crop up in different POVs. I think this really opens up an interesting way of discussing the book because we'll get to see different POVs as being in parallel or being in dialogue with each other. And we are getting all these contrasting examples too like The Ned and Tywin.

@Ragnorak, the dynamics and considerations of marriage are the other history of westeros, the one without dragons and swords :laugh: the continuation of politics by other means, if I may be so droll.

[Houndbird]

Successfully ruling is not just about having lots of guys with swords, or dragons or even a really old bloodline, but what you can do with what you've got. (Ties in nicely with Tyrion who is better at things when he is doing, not being, eh? ) And also how to make things last. Tywin used brute force and fear, and his legacy is crumbling down. Ned's approach was totally different, and lives on in a different capacity.

I agree with you. The North loves and respects Ned while the realm fears Tywin and don't think many will mourn his death! Sansa has often been described as very like her father and will have the same approach to ruling if she is Queen in the North, regent or of Westeros. she does say herself that if she is ever queen she will make the people love and not fear her as Cersei was teaching her. Sansa listens to people and then makes up her own mind.

A

[Mladen]

Power resides where men, or women as for that matter believe it resides.

For warriors like Ned or Robbert it`s all about swords. For Dany it`s her bloodline. Tywin believes it has something with money, and there are those who put their hope with the gods. But, among them who is the most powerful? No one, for they have all forgotten of the main aspect of power. Choice.

Varys looks like he`s the most powerful man because he can freely choose between many whom he would serve. But, also, he serves only himself. Ladies in Westeros have clear path in front of them. Get married, have a bunch of children and have a peaceful life. But, just like men, they make choices. Lyanna, Arya, Cersei, Brienne, and they are stuck with them. Sansa chose what kind of Queen she would be one day, and those seeds of a woman who would take care for the people has been planted long time ago. I think Martin sees Sansa in not Anne Boleyn who surrendered herself to a man, than in her daughter Elizabeth whose greatest love was welfare of her people.

I believe that we can choose many things, even what kind of people we want to be (remember Harry and the Sorting hat). But unlike choices we made in the matter of politics, fealty and love, those we make about ourselves are those that count.

[Kittykatknits]

I agree with you. The North loves and respects Ned while the realm fears Tywin and don't think many will mourn his death! Sansa has often been described as very like her father and will have the same approach to ruling if she is Queen in the North, regent or of Westeros. she does say herself that if she is ever queen she will make the people love and not fear her as Cersei was teaching her. Sansa listens to people and then makes up her own mind.

A

Not many did. :) His brother is the only one we saw really grieving. Cersei is upset about his loss but that is largely influenced over thinking that Tyrion is coming for her next. Tyrion is the one that actually killed him, Tommen couldn't handle the stink, jokes were made in the sept, no one in KL cared (many residents would remember his army sacking the city 15 years ago), and Jaime brings up his hand when his aunt asks about his loss.

In contrast, Sansa pleads for her father's life and then takes to bed for a week in grief, Robb marches south with an army, Catelyn's final thoughts are how much Ned loved her hair, Arya is numb, Bran and Rickon dream of him in the WF crypts, and his death is one of the main causes for the North declaring independence. Now, we see men fighting to rescue Ned's little girl and we get hints on just how much his people loved him.

I've got some quibbles with Ned but one of my favorite little things in the book is seeing just how much of a presence he is within the story even though he died way back in the first book.

[brashcandy]

In light of our recent discussion relating to feminism, and how we can use it to illuminate Sansa's development, I thought it would be good to create another resource for the thread, this time housing links to feminist articles and websites offering insight on gender, sexuality, sisterhood, patriarchy etc. This way we can have a quick resource to hand instead of searching through pages to find recommended links :) If any of you come across additional material online just let me know, and I'll add as we go along.

[brashcandy]

Resources 7

On Feminism

In defense of Sansa Stark (from feministfiction.com)

Feminism 101 (See here for detailed links)

Feminism is for everybody - bell hooks

Feminism: A Very Short Introduction - Margaret Walters

Info on Whipping girl: A Transsexual woman on Sexism... - Julia Serano

Uses of the Erotic: The Erotic as Power - Audre Lorde

Defining Black Feminist Thought - Patricia Hill Collins

Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema - Laura Mulvey

When the woman looks - Linda Williams

Excerpts from The Second Sex - Simone de Beauvoir

Gender is burning - Judith Butler

Women on the market - Luce Irigiray

The Laugh of the Medusa - Helene Cixous

Understanding patriarchy - bell hooks

List of feminist literature - (wikipedia)

Feminist bibliography

Feminist literary criticism and theory

Feminist perspectives on power

2nd and 3rd wave feminism- continuities and discontinuities

Third wave feminism: A critical Exploration ed. Gillis, Howie, and Munford

Sexism - Marilyn Frye

Oppression - Marilyn Frye

Sexual Pleasure as Feminist Choice - Patricia McFadden

[Mladen]

@brash, please allow me to write some male perspective on Sansa` femininity and an analysis of In defense of Sansa Stark (from feministfiction.com). I think we need to see Sansa from another angle...

P.S. I love writing long essays for this thread...

[brashcandy]

@brash, please allow me to write some male perspective on Sansa` femininity and an analysis of In defense of Sansa Stark (from feministfiction.com). I think we need to see Sansa from another angle...

P.S. I love writing long essays for this thread...

No problem, Mladen; we can discuss it further over PM if you'd like.

[Houndbird]

Did anyone discuss Rob's relationship with Sansa in the discussions of the important men in her life ? I feel that he let her and Arya (although she wasn't in KL) down badly. He insists that his banner men will never accept trading his sisters for Jaime. This is understandable but I felt he didn't really try hard. He was the king as he often reminds Catelyn. Also he had no problem marrying Jeyne and did not worry too much what his banner men would say to his marrying a girl whose family is aligned to the Lannisters. He talks about her honour doesn't bother too much about what his sisters may be suffering as hostages. He leaves a really bad taste in my mouth