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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVII


brashcandy

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Mythsandstuff completed Part One of an analysis on Robb and Sansa for the male influences project. Robb definitely erred in refusing to see Sansa's value, but his act of legitimizing Jon may be what gives her a chance for true autonomy in the end. Ironic, I suppose...

Thanks for the link. His legitimizing Jon I feel will hurt her but i think she will understand his reasons. She may also be relieved not to have that burden of a claim on her anymore and be able to find someone who loves her and not her claim. (sandor! ) I hope! Also that she can go to Winterfell again. She so wants to go home.

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Houndbird, welcome. And I do agree with you about Robb. Of all the Stark siblings, Jon and Arya seem to have had the closest bond, and we get to see that, much more than we get to see any relationship that Sansa has with her brothers. I note that when Sansa thinks of her future children, she wants to name her sons Eddard, Brandon and Rickon - no mention of Robb. That could be because Robb is still alive when Sansa is having that daydream, or it could be a comment on the two siblings not being very close. (I noted earlier that in my "headcanon" Bran is the closest to Sansa, because they have very similar personalities and romantic daydreams of knights - Sansa wants to marry one and Bran wants to be one.)

I think that yes, it is a double standard that Robb didn't think his sisters were valuable enough to ransom or exchange Jaime for; though he didn't single out Sansa and say something like "I'd like to have Arya back, but Sansa can go jump in a lake." And then he went on to marry Jeyne Westerling and screw everything up for good, though that marriage seems to have resulted from 1) an emotional crisis on hearing what happened to Bran and Rickon and Winterfell, and 2) a bit of pimping by Sybelle Spicer (gods how I hate that woman).

And it was necessary to the plot. :) I would say that some of the more illogical decisions made by characters are plot-induced but I think that is true for many books.

And agreed about Jon and Sansa's claim. Right now Sansa is sick to the death of her claim and may welcome the idea of Jon as lord of Winterfell. Certainly she would have a place there even if she wasn't lady of the North; Jon would never throw her out to starve. Though if R + L = J (as I am convinced) then Jon might have bigger fish to fry.

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Hmmm, the like buttons have disappeared once again....

And agreed about Jon and Sansa's claim. Right now Sansa is sick to the death of her claim and may welcome the idea of Jon as lord of Winterfell. Certainly she would have a place there even if she wasn't lady of the North; Jon would never throw her out to starve. Though if R + L = J (as I am convinced) then Jon might have bigger fish to fry.

I really like the point Ragnorak made a while back about Sansa as a peacemaker/mediator type. It seems like something she's been uniquely trained for, having watched the despots in Kings Landing and her own experiences in the Vale. In terms of her relationship with Jon, all signs point towards a positive alliance. He became the mythical hero she longed for when he executed Janos Slynt at the wall, and she's able to identify with him now that she's posing as a bastard.

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Robb definitely erred in refusing to see Sansa's value, but his act of legitimizing Jon may be what gives her a chance for true autonomy in the end. Ironic, I suppose...

And agreed about Jon and Sansa's claim. Right now Sansa is sick to the death of her claim and may welcome the idea of Jon as lord of Winterfell. Certainly she would have a place there even if she wasn't lady of the North; Jon would never throw her out to starve. Though if R + L = J (as I am convinced) then Jon might have bigger fish to fry.

I can't really see it this way. Isn't denying Sansa her rightful claim basically denying her another choice in life? If she wants to deny her claim for love then that should be her decision (ala prince of dragonflies). Denying her a position as lady of the North seems like a denial of a chance for true agency and autonomy for Sansa. What if she wants to actively help rebuild Winterfell and the North? Why should she have to live there as Jon Snow's guest reliant on his good nature? It should be *her* choice.

Edit: Also, I think she's sick of people misusing her for her claim... not the claim itself

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I can't really see it this way. Isn't denying Sansa her rightful claim basically denying her another choice in life? If she wants to deny her claim for love then that should be her decision (ala prince of dragonflies). Denying her a position as lady of the North seems like a denial of a chance for true agency and autonomy for Sansa. What if she wants to actively help rebuild Winterfell and the North? Why should she have to live there as Jon Snow's guest reliant on his good nature? It should be *her* choice.

I don't think you can remove this question from the context of what we've seen in the books. Sansa's claim has been used as a means for exploitation by others and to negate her agency; it's something that she directly laments in the text. So as it stands, it would never have represented a "free choice" for Sansa because it's mired in societal oppression. By removing her from the succession, Robb may have inadvertently created a situation where her choices are a lot more open. She can still feel connected to Winterfell, and certainly may still want to play a central role in rebuilding her home, but the duty vs. love conflict might not be so problematic as it once was.

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I can't really see it this way. Isn't denying Sansa her rightful claim basically denying her another choice in life? If she wants to deny her claim for love then that should be her decision (ala prince of dragonflies). Denying her a position as lady of the North seems like a denial of a chance for true agency and autonomy for Sansa. What if she wants to actively help rebuild Winterfell and the North? Why should she have to live there as Jon Snow's guest reliant on his good nature? It should be *her* choice.

Edit: Also, I think she's sick of people misusing her for her claim... not the claim itself

Well, unless Rickon dies (very unlikely that he will), she won't be Lady of Winterfell either way, right? And so being disinherited makes her a less coveted prize in the arranged marriage market. She can still be his regent and help rebuild the North and everything.

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I don't think you can remove this question from the context of what we've seen in the books. Sansa's claim has been used as a means for exploitation by others and to negate her agency; it's something that she directly laments in the text. So as it stands, it would never have represented a "free choice" for Sansa because it's mired in societal oppression. By removing her from the succession, Robb may have inadvertently created a situation where her choices are a lot more open. She can still feel connected to Winterfell, and certainly may still want to play a central role in rebuilding her home, but the duty vs. love conflict might not be so problematic as it once was.

Jeyne didn't have any kind of claim and she hardly escaped. Her high birth has helped Sansa to stay alive. I don't see how it's been used to negate her agency. I still don't understand how it makes her choices more open. Could you be more specific? On the duty v. love conflict: power comes with responsibility, agency comes with the burden of making choices... it is still wrong to deny someone a choice even if it may be a hard one.

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Jeyne didn't have any kind of claim and she hardly escaped. Her high birth has helped Sansa to stay alive. I don't see how it's been used to negate her agency. I still don't understand how it makes her choices more open. Could you be more specific? On the duty v. love conflict: power comes with responsibility, agency comes with the burden of making choices... it is still wrong to deny someone a choice even if it may be a hard one.

Jeyne was used as a fake Arya, so yes, while she wasn't a member of the nobility herself, she's used as one, so in effect, is made to suffer what the real Arya might have. And Sansa no longer having a claim to Winterfell doesn't mean that she's no longer a Stark, or can no longer benefit from such her association with the North. It simply means that she won't be eligible to rule Winterfell in her own right, and as Lady Lea noted above, Rickon's likely reappearance would have nullified her status anyways. When I say that Sansa's claim negated her agency it's because that's what we've seen in the books :) She's been used as a marriage pawn in more than 3 potential betrothals and one very awful awful marriage. Had she been in a situation where she wasn't at risk for exploitation, she may have found the claim to Winterfell empowering and inspiring, but that wasn't a reality given her circumstances. What she fears above all is that people will use her for the claim, and no one will love Sansa Stark, the individual. Therefore, if Sansa can no longer feel burdened with a claim, other opportunities for happiness and fulfillment become more possible. Those don't necessarily have to be concentrated around romantic love, but I suspect given the nature of her arc, that will be a vital component. I think Sansa will have a very important role to play in how the political situation in Westeros shapes up, but this can develop independent of an inheritance to Winterfell.

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If she wants to deny her claim for love then that should be her decision (ala prince of dragonflies).

Wait that just hit me, :bang: that in the show she gets dargonflies as accessories. Can it be that 1. as you said she denies her claim for love? :wub: or 2. someone marries her out of love and denies his claim? 3. marries a Targ? (Aegon?) 4. tyrion is actually a Targ, so she stais married to a small Targ :stillsick: 4. dies in a fire :crying: ....

Don't mind me, I am slow. I stopped watching the show in the middle of the second season and never tried to learn why dragonfly? You probably theorised it already a lot of times.

But if it means she will marry for love :wub: , gah that would make me too happy...And knowing GRRM I am afraid it won't happen. Or she does, happy for a little time, then all goes to hell.

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Wait that just hit me, :bang: that in the show she gets dargonflies as accessories. Can it be that 1. as you said she denies her claim for love? :wub: or 2. someone marries her out of love and denies his claim? 3. marries a Targ? (Aegon?) 4. tyrion is actually a Targ, so she stais married to a small Targ :stillsick: 4. dies in a fire :crying: ....

Don't mind me, I am slow. I stopped watching the show in the middle of the second season and never tried to learn why dragonfly? You probably theorised it already a lot of times.

But if it means she will marry for love :wub: , gah that would make me too happy...And knowing GRRM I am afraid it won't happen. Or she does, happy for a little time, then all goes to hell.

We've talked about the dragonfly business but I'm skeptical. Considering how wrong they get whole characters like Arya, Robb and Cat, I reaaaally doubt the folks in the show actually gave it that much thought, they probably just think it's pretty.

(also I don't think Tyrion is a Targaryen)

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Jeyne was used as a fake Arya, so yes, while she wasn't a member of the nobility herself, she's used as one, so in effect, is made to suffer what the real Arya might have.

Maybe a better example would have been Septa Mordaine or Jeyne's father. The members of Ned's household who couldn't be used as hostages were killed (we see this more than once in the books.) Sansa's high birth protected her... though as you say that is separate from her claim.

When I say that Sansa's claim negated her agency it's because that's what we've seen in the books :) She's been used as a marriage pawn in more than 3 potential betrothals and one very awful awful marriage. Had she been in a situation where she wasn't at risk for exploitation, she may have found the claim to Winterfell empowering and inspiring, but that wasn't a reality given her circumstances.

I'm assuming you are talking about: Joffrey, Willas Tyrell, SweetRobin, and this Harry guy?

Joffrey: I don't think anyone assumed she would come close to inheriting Winterfell with Joffrey... that was more because of her high birth and the friendship of their fathers... so it was more her high birth than her claim.

Willas: Surely this was an option provided to her... the Tyrells couldn't have forced her to take this option if she hadn't wanted too... surely her high birth or claim (I'm not sure about the Tyrell's motivation) *provided* her with a choice she wouldn't have had otherwise

SweetRobin: I don't think that Lysa believes she will ever inherit at this point... again I think that this match was made for her high birth not her claim

Harry: Littlefinger is playing a game... would she be better off without her claim... that is something I certainly don't see. If she wasn't such a valuable piece for him.... I cringe at the thought.

Tyrion: Tyrion is certainly attracted to the marriage by the claim... but note that Sansa is given the choice between Him and Lancel (still horrid of course). I can see how without her claim it might have just been Lancel, but that assumes that Tyrion could grow some balls and say no to Tywin. Tywin was definitely not going to let her be happy. He was doing a whole rain of castameres on the Starks.

What she fears above all is that people will use her for the claim, and no one will love Sansa Stark, the individual. Therefore, if Sansa can no longer feel burdened with a claim, other opportunities for happiness and fulfillment become more possible.

I don't think her longing for more genuine connections necessarily implies that she wants to get rid of the claim itself. She is very focused on returning to Winterfell. I also don't think she will necessarily get more genuine relationships without the claim. Either way it should be *her* choice.

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Wait that just hit me, :bang: that in the show she gets dargonflies as accessories. Can it be that 1. as you said she denies her claim for love? :wub: or 2. someone marries her out of love and denies his claim? 3. marries a Targ? (Aegon?) 4. tyrion is actually a Targ, so she stais married to a small Targ :stillsick: 4. dies in a fire :crying: ....

Don't mind me, I am slow. I stopped watching the show in the middle of the second season and never tried to learn why dragonfly? You probably theorised it already a lot of times.

But if it means she will marry for love :wub: , gah that would make me too happy...And knowing GRRM I am afraid it won't happen. Or she does, happy for a little time, then all goes to hell.

Yes, I've noticed this. I think I heard somewhere that there was supposed to be some kind of foreshadowing in Sansa's sartorial choices, but I'm not sure.

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Well, unless Rickon dies (very unlikely that he will), she won't be Lady of Winterfell either way, right? And so being disinherited makes her a less coveted prize in the arranged marriage market. She can still be his regent and help rebuild the North and everything.

Well, I was disagreeing with the notion that her disinheritance was a *good* thing. From this perspective, it seems like more of an 'it doesn't really matter' thing. Robb, however, doesn't know that Rickon is still alive so I'd say that disinheriting Sansa and Arya was still a crap move on his part.

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I don't think Sansa's lack of a claim will stay. I see one of two things happening.

1. Starks retake Winterfell. Reigning Stark puts Sansa back in line. Once she is out of the grasp of others, there is no reason not to put her back in line. Only Arya would stand to lose her place. Jon is a brother legitimatized by Robb, thus he should inherit before Sansa and Arya. It is a bit of a grey spot, but I don't see the Starks warring with each other about who should rule Winterfell.

2. She will inherit the Tully lands. I like Edmure, but have the feeling House Tully is doomed. As long as the North doesn't stay independent without the Riverlands, Sansa is the perfect choice. She is a close relative without the messiness of inheriting both the North and the Riverlands. Even an independent North (that includes the Riverlands) would benefit from such an arrangement since having a Great Lord would make administration easier.

How is Tyrion a Targ? According to his aunt Genna he is very much Tywin's son. I really don't like this idea that he'll be a dragon rider.

The theory is that Aerys raped Tywin's wife and impregnated her.

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Oh I didn't mean tyrion is a Targ, I don't believe those theories myself either. I am just trying to think what the dragonfly could have meant. While I don't believe those theories if he were a Targ then he would be a smalldragon, but that is just a strech.

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Wait that just hit me, :bang: that in the show she gets dargonflies as accessories. Can it be that 1. as you said she denies her claim for love? :wub: or 2. someone marries her out of love and denies his claim? 3. marries a Targ? (Aegon?) 4. tyrion is actually a Targ, so she stais married to a small Targ :stillsick: 4. dies in a fire :crying: ....

Don't mind me, I am slow. I stopped watching the show in the middle of the second season and never tried to learn why dragonfly? You probably theorised it already a lot of times.

But if it means she will marry for love :wub: , gah that would make me too happy...And knowing GRRM I am afraid it won't happen. Or she does, happy for a little time, then all goes to hell.

I agree with Lady Lea here. The producers calls Jaime a beast and yet felt it was find to turn Tywin in to a Daddy Warbucks type figure. I don't pay much attention to what the show does. And also, you aren't really missing anything

How is Tyrion a Targ? According to his aunt Genna he is very much Tywin's son. I really don't like this idea that he'll be a dragon rider.

There is a theory that Jaime and Cersei are also secret Targs. Personally, I don't buy either theories.

Maybe a better example would have been Septa Mordaine or Jeyne's father. The members of Ned's household who couldn't be used as hostages were killed (we see this more than once in the books.) Sansa's high birth protected her... though as you say that is separate from her claim.

I'm assuming you are talking about: Joffrey, Willas Tyrell, SweetRobin, and this Harry guy?

Joffrey: I don't think anyone assumed she would come close to inheriting Winterfell with Joffrey... that was more because of her high birth and the friendship of their fathers... so it was more her high birth than her claim.

Willas: Surely this was an option provided to her... the Tyrells couldn't have forced her to take this option if she hadn't wanted too... surely her high birth or claim (I'm not sure about the Tyrell's motivation) *provided* her with a choice she wouldn't have had otherwise

SweetRobin: I don't think that Lysa believes she will ever inherit at this point... again I think that this match was made for her high birth not her claim

Harry: Littlefinger is playing a game... would she be better off without her claim... that is something I certainly don't see. If she wasn't such a valuable piece for him.... I cringe at the thought.

Tyrion: Tyrion is certainly attracted to the marriage by the claim... but note that Sansa is given the choice between Him and Lancel (still horrid of course). I can see how without her claim it might have just been Lancel, but that assumes that Tyrion could grow some balls and say no to Tywin. Tywin was definitely not going to let her be happy. He was doing a whole rain of castameres on the Starks.

I don't think her longing for more genuine connections necessarily implies that she wants to get rid of the claim itself. She is very focused on returning to Winterfell. I also don't think she will necessarily get more genuine relationships without the claim. Either way it should be *her* choice.

I think her desire to go back to WF is more about a return to home and family rather than any interest in a political claim.

As to the different suitors, Joffrey was more about her high birth and joining the Stark and Baratheon houses.

The Tyrells offer was made for her claim, Sansa was soon the likely heir to half of Westeros. The QoT didn't think much of Sansa herself. The marriage to SR was also for her claim with Lysa making several comments on how Sansa was a beggar and would need them. Harry is also a politically arranged marriage for her claim.

As to Tyrion, I don't think that offer to Lancel meant much. She had already been threatened by both Cersei and Joffrey with Tyrion being aware of what Joffrey had done and his past treatment of her. The Lannisters were going to marry her off for her claim. Tyrion thinks to himself before the marriage that a land, wife, and keep of his own would be good for him and later attempts to use his wife's claim with Bronn. Nothing to do with her high birth.

2. She will inherit the Tully lands. I like Edmure, but have the feeling House Tully is doomed. As long as the North doesn't stay independent without the Riverlands, Sansa is the perfect choice. She is a close relative without the messiness of inheriting both the North and the Riverlands. Even an independent North (that includes the Riverlands) would benefit from such an arrangement since having a Great Lord would make administration easier.

This is one of my greatest fears in the series and I always get a bit nervous when seeing it on paper.

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Well, I was disagreeing with the notion that her disinheritance was a *good* thing. From this perspective, it seems like more of an 'it doesn't really matter' thing. Robb, however, doesn't know that Rickon is still alive so I'd say that disinheriting Sansa and Arya was still a crap move on his part.

No, it matters because at least she won't be a target of marriages to people who plan to kill Rickon in order to get Winterfell through her (like Tyrion knew Robb would die when he agreed to marry her for Winterfell). She also won't be a target of marriages to people who want her exclusively for her claim, which is something she already said she doesn't want. If she wants a political marriage, she still has plenty of doors open to her because she is highborn, a Stark, young, pretty, virgin, etc.

(and he only disinherited Sansa, not Arya)

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I don't think her longing for more genuine connections necessarily implies that she wants to get rid of the claim itself. She is very focused on returning to Winterfell. I also don't think she will necessarily get more genuine relationships without the claim. Either way it should be *her* choice.

I think the issue here is that I don't see "heir to Winterfell" being a "choice" that was open to Sansa. It was one for Jon for sure, and he chose to reject it when offered by Stannis, but with Sansa it's taken the form of a condition of sorts: she either is or she isn't, and given how she's been used for her claim, it's not one has given her options for agency or authority. Perhaps Sansa might one day end up ruling Winterfell or another castle as Lord Bronn envisions, but that road will hopefully be paved with a lot more autonomous decisions that do not require a subjugation of self and personal desires.

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