From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVII

[Lummel]

How is Tyrion a Targ? According to his aunt Genna he is very much Tywin's son. I really don't like this idea that he'll be a dragon rider.

Don't worry, it's just a theory, just as the idea of there being three literal dragon riders is also just a theory.

... I like Edmure, but have the feeling House Tully is doomed...

It is not nice to draw attention to a man's floppy fish like that. If you add to his worries it can increase the risk of his fish becoming even floppier.

[greensleeves]

I think the issue here is that I don't see "heir to Winterfell" being a "choice" that was open to Sansa. It was one for Jon for sure, and he chose to reject it when offered by Stannis, but with Sansa it's taken the form of a condition of sorts: she either is or she isn't, and given how she's been used for her claim, it's not one has given her options for agency or authority. Perhaps Sansa might one day end up ruling Winterfell or another castle as Lord Bronn envisions, but that road will hopefully be paved with a lot more autonomous decisions that do not require a subjugation of self and personal desires.

I agree that being "heir to Winterfell" isn't a choice for her right now... but there is the possibility that in the future it will be (just like it was for Jon). She has been mostly deprived of agency throughout the books, and even though her claim has not given her options for agency or authority (except, perhaps, for her brief Tyrell opportunity), I don't think it has prevented her from having agency or authority either. If, as several people have stated, Robb's will doesn't end up mattering very much, then it still isn't a *good* thing that he's disinherited her. I think at best it's emotionally hurtful and a bit insulting.

No, it matters because at least she won't be a target of marriages to people who plan to kill Rickon in order to get Winterfell through her (like Tyrion knew Robb would die when he agreed to marry her for Winterfell). She also won't be a target of marriages to people who want her exclusively for her claim, which is something she already said she doesn't want. If she wants a political marriage, she still has plenty of doors open to her because she is highborn, a Stark, young, pretty, virgin, etc.

(and he only disinherited Sansa, not Arya)

I think her desire to go back to WF is more about a return to home and family rather than any interest in a political claim.

As to the different suitors, Joffrey was more about her high birth and joining the Stark and Baratheon houses.

The Tyrells offer was made for her claim, Sansa was soon the likely heir to half of Westeros. The QoT didn't think much of Sansa herself. The marriage to SR was also for her claim with Lysa making several comments on how Sansa was a beggar and would need them. Harry is also a politically arranged marriage for her claim.

As to Tyrion, I don't think that offer to Lancel meant much. She had already been threatened by both Cersei and Joffrey with Tyrion being aware of what Joffrey had done and his past treatment of her. The Lannisters were going to marry her off for her claim. Tyrion thinks to himself before the marriage that a land, wife, and keep of his own would be good for him and later attempts to use his wife's claim with Bronn. Nothing to do with her high birth.

The Tyrion re-read threads have made Tywin slightly clearer to me.... He wanted to absolutely devastate House Stark. Robb was going to die horribly regardless of Sansa's claim. In fact, I'm not even sure he ever intended for Tyrion lay claim to the north. I think the point of marrying her to him was pure humiliation for her and maybe his only chance of getting someone appropriate for him. Sure he had to marry her to *somebody* to put an end to any scheming where she was concerned (not that it worked), but consider what would have happened to her if Robb had already publicly disinherited her (this was before his will anyways)... Would Tywin have actually let her have a choice about anything? I am skeptical.

We all agree that she no longer wants proposals made for her claim, but if she gets fewer proposals is she better off? Whatever the reason Lysa engages her to Sweetrobin, Sansa says yes. Obviously she doesn't want to marry him, but this does allow her to seek shelter with her aunt. Again, I don't know what LittleFinger has planned, but I can't imagine it would be improved for her if Robb's will is known.

It is not nice to draw attention to a man's floppy fish like that. If you add to his worries it can increase the risk of his fish becoming even floppier.

:laugh:

[1234567]

Yes, I've noticed this. I think I heard somewhere that there was supposed to be some kind of foreshadowing in Sansa's sartorial choices, but I'm not sure.

At the Eyrie there is the scene where LF tells her to change as the colours are too Tully. She goes through Lysa's wardrobe and sees the purple dress and thinks how lovely it would be, but moves on (as purple represents Royal colours this could be a rejection of her being a Queen), next are ccolours very similar to House Arryn, which she also rejects. In the end she chooses a much simpler dress that has a lot of clegane colours and associations. So it could reflect her ending up with Sandor. (well at least I hope so).

However there is an almost identical scene in AFFC with Cersei dressing similarly to go and see the High Septon. Both think about how their attire is important, but whereas Cersei gets everything wrong, Sansa get is right.

[greensleeves]

At the Eyrie there is the scene where LF tells her to change as the colours are too Tully. She goes through Lysa's wardrobe and sees the purple dress and thinks how lovely it would be, but moves on (as purple represents Royal colours this could be a rejection of her being a Queen), next are ccolours very similar to House Arryn, which she also rejects. In the end she chooses a much simpler dress that has a lot of clegane colours and associations. So it could reflect her ending up with Sandor. (well at least I hope so).

However there is an almost identical scene in AFFC with Cersei dressing similarly to go and see the High Septon. Both think about how their attire is important, but whereas Cersei gets everything wrong, Sansa get is right.

I think I found what you're talking about.

From the start of the chapter:

A cold gust of wind blew up her legs. She went inside to choose a gown to break her fast in. Petyr had given her his late wife’s wardrobe, a wealth of silks, satins, velvets, and furs far beyond anything she had ever dreamed, though the great bulk of it was far too large for her; Lady Lysa had grown very stout during her long succession of pregnancies, stillbirths, and miscarriages. A few of the oldest gowns had been made for young Lysa Tully of Riverrun, however, and others Gretchel had been able to alter to fit Alayne, who was almost as long of leg at three-and-ten as her aunt had been at twenty.

This morning her eye was caught by a parti-colored gown of Tully red and blue, lined with vair. Gretchel helped her slide her arms into the belled sleeves and laced her back, then brushed and pinned her hair. Alayne had darkened it again last night before she went to bed. The wash her aunt had given her changed her own rich auburn into Alayne’s burnt brown, but it was seldom long before the red began creeping back at the roots.

And what must I do when the dye runs out?

The wash had come from Tyrosh, across the narrow sea.

Then LF asks her to change:

Alayne looked down at her dress, the deep blue and rich dark red of Riverrun. “Is it too—”

“It is too Tully. The Lords Declarant will not be pleased by the sight of my bastard daughter prancing about in my dead wife’s clothes. Choose something else. Need I remind you to avoid sky blue and cream?”

“No.” Sky blue and cream were the colors of House Arryn.

Then she chooses:

There was a gown of purple silk that gave her pause, and another of dark blue velvet slashed with silver that would have woken all the color in her eyes, but in the end she remembered that Alayne was after all a bastard, and must not presume to dress above her station. The dress she picked was lambswool, dark brown and simply cut, with leaves and vines embroidered around the bodice, sleeves, and hem in golden thread. It was modest and becoming, though scarce richer than something a serving girl might wear. Petyr had given her all of Lady Lysa’s jewels as well, and she tried on several necklaces, but they all seemed ostentatious. In the end she chose a simple velvet ribbon in autumn gold. When Gretchel fetched her Lysa’s silvered looking glass, the color seemed just perfect with Alayne’s mass of dark brown hair.

Lord Royce will never know me

, she thought.

Why, I hardly know myself.

The dress she chooses actually reminds me a bit of Arya's acorn dress because of the plants though I can't recall the color of that one. Where was Cersei's scene?

[brashcandy]

I agree that being "heir to Winterfell" isn't a choice for her right now... but there is the possibility that in the future it will be (just like it was for Jon). She has been mostly deprived of agency throughout the books, and even though her claim has not given her options for agency or authority (except, perhaps, for her brief Tyrell opportunity), I don't think it has prevented her from having agency or authority either. If, as several people have stated, Robb's will doesn't end up mattering very much, then it still isn't a *good* thing that he's disinherited her. I think at best it's emotionally hurtful and a bit insulting.

Well we as readers might find it insulting, but will Sansa take similar offence or will she be mostly relieved? Remember, by the time Sansa was married off to Tyrion, it was already too late for Robb to do anything in terms of getting her away from the Lannisters. What he wanted to prevent was that family getting their hands on the North through Sansa. Now lots of players have entered the arena and the dynamics are ever changing. There's the Bolton faction, Stannis's drama, Manderly is looking for Rickon and Jon may be dead, soon to rise as what we still aren't sure. Sansa's arc is really open-ended, and she's still not out of the running for a future leadership position.

We all agree that she no longer wants proposals made for her claim, but if she gets fewer proposals is she better off? Whatever the reason Lysa engages her to Sweetrobin, Sansa says yes. Obviously she doesn't want to marry him, but this does allow her to seek shelter with her aunt. Again, I don't know what LittleFinger has planned, but I can't imagine it would be improved for her if Robb's will is known.

Here's how I see it: right now LF is working with the information that Sansa is the sole heir to Winterfell, and he's using that to compel Sansa to do what he wants, and to increase his control over her. As the heir she has a political duty - marry Harry, gain the Vale swords, head North. But what if she no longer felt she had such a duty? Not that she isn't interested in rebuilding her home, but doing so over SR's grave and becoming more in debt to LF are not palatable options. So I think things would greatly improve for Sansa if she knew she wasn't the heir. I expect her to act in SR's defense nevertheless, but given her positive thoughts about Jon and her growing sense of independence, I think Sansa would be happy to hear that her journey home does not have to go through men like LF.

[Lady Lea]

The Tyrion re-read threads have made Tywin slightly clearer to me.... He wanted to absolutely devastate House Stark. Robb was going to die horribly regardless of Sansa's claim. In fact, I'm not even sure he ever intended for Tyrion lay claim to the north. I think the point of marrying her to him was pure humiliation for her and maybe his only chance of getting someone appropriate for him. Sure he had to marry her to *somebody* to put an end to any scheming where she was concerned (not that it worked), but consider what would have happened to her if Robb had already publicly disinherited her (this was before his will anyways)... Would Tywin have actually let her have a choice about anything? I am skeptical.

We all agree that she no longer wants proposals made for her claim, but if she gets fewer proposals is she better off? Whatever the reason Lysa engages her to Sweetrobin, Sansa says yes. Obviously she doesn't want to marry him, but this does allow her to seek shelter with her aunt. Again, I don't know what LittleFinger has planned, but I can't imagine it would be improved for her if Robb's will is known.

Tywin wouldn't give her a choice claim or no claim, so maybe it is a moot point, but that Karstark girl whose name I forget, didn't her uncle want to kill her brother and marry her to get Karhold? That is more the kind of thing I mean. I'm sure it happens a lot in Westeros, especially in more vulnerable families like the Starks are now and the Karstarks were.

Anyway. I understand your point, but I think that if the kind of proposals she loses are the ones who were more about her claim than herself, than it is not such a bad thing.

LF is a case apart. We don't really know what he wants but I think we can be fairly sure one of the things he does want is her for himself in the end. Probably better if she came with a castle but since he owns Harrenhal now, and he's a pervert, I don't think it would matter much to him. Now LF is the kind of guy who wouldn't mind disposing of Rickon if it meant Sansa would come out with Winterfell.

[Ragnorak]

...

I really like the point Ragnorak made a while back about Sansa as a peacemaker/mediator type. It seems like something she's been uniquely trained for, having watched the despots in Kings Landing and her own experiences in the Vale. In terms of her relationship with Jon, all signs point towards a positive alliance. He became the mythical hero she longed for when he executed Janos Slynt at the wall, and she's able to identify with him now that she's posing as a bastard.

I'm glad you like it. It does offer a complimentary form of needlework for Sansa to perform in the game of thrones. I agree that this type of role meshes well with what Jon needs and where both their stories seem headed. Other than Jon making peace with the Free Folk I think every other place we see involves increased bitterness and a more entrenched attitude towards continued war. Sansa and Ellaria Sand seem to be about the only two characters remotely inclined toward any aspect of peace. Hey, even the High Septon is drilling troops for war.

I like KBRD's thematic take on the Sansa/Bran connection. That's the nature of the type of themes I was trying to come up with but still haven't had much of an inspiration. I was looking at Snow Winterfell as inspiration from Bran and it paints a bit of a Bran the Builder with Sansa's hands image. Not really sure how to apply that to the story or if it even fits.

Jon adamantly defended Sansa's claim to Winterfell to Stannis even after the marriage to Tyrion. Whatever happens with Robb's will I just don't see this as an issue between the two at all. Short term, losing her status as immediate heir to Winterfell would be a relief except for losing hope of home. Her real call to Winterfell is home not any political aspiration. Jon, Bran, or Rickon becomes lord and Winterfell becomes home again.

[greensleeves]

Well we as readers might find it insulting, but will Sansa take similar offence or will she be mostly relieved? Remember, by the time Sansa was married off to Tyrion, it was already too late for Robb to do anything in terms of getting her away from the Lannisters. What he wanted to prevent was that family getting their hands on the North through Sansa. Now lots of players have entered the arena and the dynamics are ever changing. There's the Bolton faction, Stannis's drama, Manderly is looking for Rickon and Jon may be dead, soon to rise as what we still aren't sure. Sansa's arc is really open-ended, and she's still not out of the running for a future leadership position.

I have no doubt that Sansa will be able to understand Robb's logic, but that doesn't mean she won't be hurt. Our emotions aren't always logical. As someone who has been psychologically isolated for so long, I would imagine she would be especially sensitive to even a symbolic abandonment by her beloved family. Her identity as a Stark has been important for her... when she thinks 'They made me a Lannister.' in AFFC it was heartbreaking. If she knows that 'They' includes Robb... that's harsh.

I think it's insulting on top of that because I don't think Sansa would ever have allowed Tyrion to abuse her claim that way, but that's purely speculative. I can see how she might not see that.

As for her arc being wide open, I agree. It's notable, however, that though in this thread we've been treating it as a matter of course that Sansa would be able to act as Rickon's regent in the event that they are both safely restored to Winterfell, many fans apparently feel differently: http://asoiaf.wester...rickons-regent/

I can imagine that if it is known that Robb disinherited her, it could be used as an argument against her being Rickon's regent.

Here's how I see it: right now LF is working with the information that Sansa is the sole heir to Winterfell, and he's using that to compel Sansa to do what he wants, and to increase his control over her. As the heir she has a political duty - marry Harry, gain the Vale swords, head North. But what if she no longer felt she had such a duty? Not that she isn't interested in rebuilding her home, but doing so over SR's grave and becoming more in debt to LF are not palatable options. So I think things would greatly improve for Sansa if she knew she wasn't the heir. I expect her to act in SR's defense nevertheless, but given her positive thoughts about Jon and her growing sense of independence, I think Sansa would be happy to hear that her journey home does not have to go through men like LF.

I think she would feel an obligation towards Winterfell regardless of her status as heir... beyond an obligation I think that she feels a true desire to return to Winterfell. Is there any textual evidence that she thinks of her claim in this way? I can't even recall her ever having that attitude.

I think she feels compeled by Littlefinger for a number of reasons: he's made sure she's a wanted fugitive, he's controlling the information she has access too, and he's making her empty promises about future agency...

Tywin wouldn't give her a choice claim or no claim, so maybe it is a moot point, but that Karstark girl whose name I forget, didn't her uncle want to kill her brother and marry her to get Karhold? That is more the kind of thing I mean. I'm sure it happens a lot in Westeros, especially in more vulnerable families like the Starks are now and the Karstarks were.

Yet the Karstark girl was able to escape. Her claim helped her to secure an alternate match of her choosing and got Jon to lock up her uncle (who was trying to marry her to his son, her cousin). She can now use that claim to build a home with her new family. Although her claim brought her a temporary obstacle, overall her claim was a strength for Alys Karstark.

Anyway. I understand your point, but I think that if the kind of proposals she loses are the ones who were more about her claim than herself, than it is not such a bad thing.

Not just proposals... her claim could bring her any number of political opportunities in the future.

Now LF is the kind of guy who wouldn't mind disposing of Rickon if it meant Sansa would come out with Winterfell.

*That* is a scary thought. :eek: Hopefully Littlefinger is more concentrated on the Riverlands and the Vale. Hopefully he would also know that she would scratch his eyes out she ever suspected such a thing. Note however, that this scenario make Sansa's disinheritance good for *Rickon* and thus indirectly good for Sansa. Most of the comments I was originally responding to made it seem like her disinheritance was good for her more directly.

[Lummel]

...I like KBRD's thematic take on the Sansa/Bran connection. That's the nature of the type of themes I was trying to come up with but still haven't had much of an inspiration. I was looking at Snow Winterfell as inspiration from Bran and it paints a bit of a Bran the Builder with Sansa's hands image. Not really sure how to apply that to the story or if it even fits...

To me it seems to fit quite neatly.

At the end of ACOK Bran and friends leave Winterfell and he looks back it as a ruin and thinks to himself that "Winterfell. It was not dead, just broken." Then in AFFC we have Sansa the architect modelling a restored Winterfell built from snow (good thing she wasn't in a sand pit because that would really throw the speculation in a radically different direction).

If you are looking for optimistic images then that's the one - Sansa the restorer. Thinking a little politically who else is there to take responsibility for rebuilding among the Starks, there is only Jon and Sansa. Although you could read it as being an image that is about identity, childhood and safety too or instead.

Of course if you are looking at Sansa as being potentially a bigger unifier and restorer of peace, justice and other good stuff then you might take that as pointing to reconciliation with Tyrion. :dunno:

@Greensleeves, nice to hear that rereading Tyrion is helping you with Tywin!

[Le Cygne]

At the Eyrie there is the scene where LF tells her to change as the colours are too Tully. She goes through Lysa's wardrobe and sees the purple dress and thinks how lovely it would be, but moves on (as purple represents Royal colours this could be a rejection of her being a Queen), next are ccolours very similar to House Arryn, which she also rejects. In the end she chooses a much simpler dress that has a lot of clegane colours and associations. So it could reflect her ending up with Sandor. (well at least I hope so).

I like that you picked this up, Rapsie, and I agree with your interpretation. I went back and looked for associations of autumn and colors in the first four books, and also noticed something interesting.

Sandor telling Sansa about his House colors:

“The three dogs on our banner are the three that died, in the yellow of autumn grass.”

Three of the references are Sansa related, GRRM uses autumn to describe her:

In the end she chose a simple velvet ribbon in autumn gold.

Her hair was a rich autumn auburn, her eyes a deep Tully blue.

On the valley floor autumn still lingered, warm and golden, but winter had closed around the mountain peaks.

And the other references throughout the four books are much less personal:

“I loved a maid as red as autumn,” Rymund sang, “with sunset in her hair.”

Joffrey had met his new bride-to-be at the King’s Gate to welcome her to the city, and they rode side by side through cheering crowds, Joff glittering in gilded armor and the Tyrell girl splendid in green with a cloak of autumn flowers blowing from her shoulders.

Tom had chased them around the yard afterward, until all three were red as autumn apples.

The russet and gold of autumn leaves grew less common when they left the wolfswood to climb amongst the old flint hills, and vanished by the time those hills had turned to mountains.

They showed a castle in an autumn wood, the trees done up in shades of gold and russet.

The quote about Joffrey and Margaery caught my eye because it was different in the preview chapter in ACOK and in the published version in ASOS. In the preview chapter, Margaery's dress is silk, but GRRM deletes the word "silk" in the published chapter. My thought is that it took emphasis from the more important passage in the same chapter where Sansa talks about hiding Sandor's cloak among her summer silks.

Joffrey had met his new bride-to-be at the King’s Gate to welcome her to the city, and they rode side by side through cheering crowds, Joff glittering in gilded armor and the Tyrell girl splendid in green silk with a cloak of autumn flowers blowing from her shoulders.

So then I noticed GRRM had also changed the passages where Sansa thinks about Sandor, too:

Sansa preview chapter in ACOK:

They pulled me from my horse and would have killed me, if not for the Hound, Sansa remembered, resentful.

Sansa's published chapter in ASOS:

The same smallfolk who pulled me from my horse and would have killed me, if not for the Hound.

The revision makes it seem more like Sansa is remembering the Hound than being resentful (striking that changed the emphasis).

And this one, the Sansa preview chapter in ACOK:

I wish the Hound were still here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers and offered to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she’d been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she’d kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the safety of the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside . . . she could scarcely imagine it.

The Sansa published chapter in ASOS:

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she’d been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she’d kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside . . . she could scarcely imagine it.

Simple changes that make the passage more elegant, but also change the emphassis. "I wish he were here" is more evocative of a general longing rather than a specific one "still here". As in, here wherever I am, vs. here in this place where he was. "To take her" is stronger than "offered to take her", and makes it clear that was his main purpose.

The writing part interests me the most about this series, so hopefully this isn't boring, but I like the thought of him paying attention to these passages, and also we get a better idea of his writing process.

[1234567]

@ Le Cygne

Wow, I never saw the preview in ACOK. That's really interesting that both changes were around Sandor though. Great catch!

The autumn gold simple necklace caught my eye too (there is a bit about it in the original re-read threads) as did the leaf pattern on the dress in gold thread as it too seemed to suggest autumn and House Clegane colours. The simple ribbon also has connotations of a collar, which relents the Hound symbolism and also Dany's collar of gold in AGOT.

Currently at work, lunch break, but will add more this evening!

[brashcandy]

I have no doubt that Sansa will be able to understand Robb's logic, but that doesn't mean she won't be hurt. Our emotions aren't always logical. As someone who has been psychologically isolated for so long, I would imagine she would be especially sensitive to even a symbolic abandonment by her beloved family. Her identity as a Stark has been important for her... when she thinks 'They made me a Lannister.' in AFFC it was heartbreaking. If she knows that 'They' includes Robb... that's harsh.

I'm not arguing that Sansa may not experience some sadness initially, but focusing on the overall context and her expressed issues with people only wanting her for her claim, I think she might view it as an overall benefit. And besides, I think Sansa will be acting independently of any claim right now, as she will very likely attempt to avoid the marriage to HtH and protect SR.

I think it's insulting on top of that because I don't think Sansa would ever have allowed Tyrion to abuse her claim that way, but that's purely speculative. I can see how she might not see that.

The plan was for Sansa to have a child, and Tyrion would be taking that child North as the new Lord of Winterfell.

As for her arc being wide open, I agree. It's notable, however, that though in this thread we've been treating it as a matter of course that Sansa would be able to act as Rickon's regent in the event that they are both safely restored to Winterfell, many fans apparently feel differently: http://asoiaf.wester...rickons-regent/

I'm not in the habit of crediting much of what is said on the wider board concerning Sansa tbh. Acting as Rickon's regent is just another possibility for Sansa's future that may or may not come to pass. There are obviously other candidates who could fill that position, but I think our focus has just been to concentrate on Sansa's developing skills, which indicate that she could perform as regent if that's where the plot ended up.

I can imagine that if it is known that Robb disinherited her, it could be used as an argument against her being Rickon's regent.

I don't see why. Robb disinherited her for a very specific reason - it does not reflect on Sansa's ability, neither should it impact the ingrained loyalty that many Northmen still seem to hold towards Ned's children. Of course, that's just my reading.

I think she would feel an obligation towards Winterfell regardless of her status as heir... beyond an obligation I think that she feels a true desire to return to Winterfell. Is there any textual evidence that she thinks of her claim in this way? I can't even recall her ever having that attitude.

Yes; see her thoughts during the wedding chapter in ASOS, in the chapter at the Fingers, and in her meeting with LF at the Gates of the Moon.

I think she feels compeled by Littlefinger for a number of reasons: he's made sure she's a wanted fugitive, he's controlling the information she has access too, and he's making her empty promises about future agency...

And the last proposal he makes is for her to retake Winterfell with the Vale swords after SR dies and she marries HtH. Unless TWOW opens with LF saying "haha, just kidding", this is the working information Sansa has. I expect that the lure of returning home will be a powerful one, especially as she imagines all her remaining family members are dead, and Jon is a sworn brother of the NW. If she knew however that this was not the case, or she had been disinherited - let's go with your scenario for a moment and assume she's incredibly hurt and upset - would the attraction of sacrificing herself within another marriage of convenience be so tempting?

Most of the comments I was originally responding to made it seem like her disinheritance was good for her more directly.

I think what I said was that ironically, Robb disinheritance of Sansa might turn out to be what gives her more freedom in the end.

[Winter Warden]

I'm confused. Did Robb actually disinherit Sansa?

“Young, and a king,” he said. “A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north.”

“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.” She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . .”

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”

I don't see anywhere in this passage where Robb or Catelyn suggest something like "I must strip Sansa of the Stark name and all right to its lands and titles," which is what I usually consider to be disinheriting. It's essentially saying "Sansa Stark is no blood of mine."

It sounds to me like Robb is just saying that he will write a will legitimizing Jon and placing him at the head of the succession. As a king, he technically has that power, although it's not clear that his will would be upheld after his kingdom so dramatically fell to pieces. Why do people in this thread think that Sansa has been disinherited?

[Lummel]

iirc it was confirmed in the app that Robb named Jon as heir in which case Sansa was either disinherited or knocked down in the order of succession.

[brashcandy]

I don't see anywhere in this passage where Robb or Catelyn suggest something like "I must strip Sansa of the Stark name and all right to its lands and titles," which is what I usually consider to be disinheriting. It's essentially saying "Sansa Stark is no blood of mine."

It sounds to me like Robb is just saying that he will write a will legitimizing Jon and placing him at the head of the succession. As a king, he technically has that power, although it's not clear that his will would be upheld after his kingdom so dramatically fell to pieces. Why do people in this thread think that Sansa has been disinherited?

iirc it was confirmed in the app that Robb named Jon as heir in which case Sansa was either disinherited or knocked down in the order of succession.

Yes, it was confirmed that Robb did make Jon legitimate. As it stood, Sansa would still have been heir to Winterfell, but as Sansa Lannister or as Stannis snidely calls her, Lady Lannister. I'm using the term disinheritance to indicate Sansa's removal from the line of succession.

[Peter George Stewart]

But since Jon is Nights Watch and Bran is a tree, Sansa is still next in line after all, no?

Ultimately, I suspect she may be the real "beautiful queen" that succeeds Cersei in Maggy the Frog's prophecy. That's what Littlefinger seems to be planning too.

[Kittykatknits]

I think it's insulting on top of that because I don't think Sansa would ever have allowed Tyrion to abuse her claim that way, but that's purely speculative. I can see how she might not see that.

Not just proposals... her claim could bring her any number of political opportunities in the future.

Out of curiosity, how do you foresee Sansa going about not allowing Tyrion to abuse her claim as a hostage in the South, surrounded by other Lannisters?

And as to marriage for political opportunities, this is very much what some of us are getting to. Sansa does not want a marriage for a claim or for political reasons. She wants marriage for love, on her terms. That is why brashcandy describes the will as a tool that may ironically allow her to do just that. If she is not the heir, then a marriage for political alliance is not as needed.

I like that you picked this up, Rapsie, and I agree with your interpretation. I went back and looked for associations of autumn and colors in the first four books, and also noticed something interesting.

<snip for space>

The writing part interests me the most about this series, so hopefully this isn't boring, but I like the thought of him paying attention to these passages, and also we get a better idea of his writing process.

This was amazing and not boring at all! How did you manage to find a sample chapter for Clash?!? I didn't even know such a thing existed. And I very much agree with all your points, :)

But since Jon is Nights Watch and Bran is a tree, Sansa is still next in line after all, no?

Ultimately, I suspect she may be the real "beautiful queen" that succeeds Cersei in Maggy the Frog's prophecy. That's what Littlefinger seems to be planning too.

No, Rickon would still come before Sansa.

Also, the Maggy the Frog prophecy says nothing about the someone younger and more beautiful being a queen. That is an interpretation that the readers and Cersei keep adding to it. Since Cersei believes that it must be a queen, seems like a big clue that who ever this is, it won't be a queen.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Out of curiosity, how do you foresee Sansa going about not allowing Tyrion to abuse her claim as a hostage in the South, surrounded by other Lannisters?

And as to marriage for political opportunities, this is very much what some of us are getting to. Sansa does not want a marriage for a claim or for political reasons. She wants marriage for love, on her terms. That is why brashcandy describes the will as a tool that may ironically allow her to do just that. If she is not the heir, then a marriage for political alliance is not as needed.

This was amazing and not boring at all! How did you manage to find a sample chapter for Clash?!? I didn't even know such a thing existed. And I very much agree with all your points, :)

No, Rickon would still come before Sansa.

Also, the Maggy the Frog prophecy says nothing about the someone younger and more beautiful being a queen. That is an interpretation that the readers and Cersei keep adding to it. Since Cersei believes that it must be a queen, seems like a big clue that who ever this is, it won't be a queen.

I can actually see Sansa arranging a political marriage (if Sandor dies/is actually dead and not the gravedigger). However, she will be the one to arrange it. She does have an example of a good political marriage. The larger issue is that she had no say it. Robert just decreed it without giving Ned any real chance to think about it. Every marriage (proposal) since then has been less political marriage and more trying to steal the North.

[bgona]

At the Eyrie there is the scene where LF tells her to change as the colours are too Tully. She goes through Lysa's wardrobe and sees the purple dress and thinks how lovely it would be, but moves on (as purple represents Royal colours this could be a rejection of her being a Queen), next are ccolours very similar to House Arryn, which she also rejects. In the end she chooses a much simpler dress that has a lot of clegane colours and associations. So it could reflect her ending up with Sandor. (well at least I hope so).

However there is an almost identical scene in AFFC with Cersei dressing similarly to go and see the High Septon. Both think about how their attire is important, but whereas Cersei gets everything wrong, Sansa get is right.

At the Eyrie she chose to wear with the brown dress a yellow necklace, that it is a proof of the lie that she was going to tell.

I have turn to a kind of crazy about the colors. I am sure they mean something (I can be wrong about it).

Yellow means lies (golden: also the reference to the Arbor Gold and lies that LF tells to Sansa).

Greens means changes (Tyrells changes sides, green is a color that goes with Sandor in all his changing proccess).

White means death.

Red means danger.

Grey means strength (the grey scale they turn to stone, to something strong, hard).

Purple means pain (so Sansa rejecting wear purple can mean that she reject more suffering). It is true is the color of the Emperors, but GRRM change all the heraldric color meaning to create its own.

I haven´t yet all the meanings that GRRM gives to the colors at his books. But I never have notice the fabric or other textils. It would be good to do a reread (if I found time, sniff).

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I really must add my WOW!!! to Le Cygne.

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Edit: Just to add this link to a heraldic colors meaning page: I couldn´t find from where they say that Blue is an autumn color (I have see it associated also with Winter).

Also I want to add the Wiki page about heraldry and the one about tincture (that is mainly about the English heraldry colors).

[bgona]

“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.” She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . .”

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”

At the Lord Declarants we have a Waynwood, a Corbray, a Templeton and a Royce.