From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVII

[Kittykatknits]

I admit that, initially, after hearing Littlefinger's explanation, I suspected that Sansa would resent her match with Harry, but the more I think about it, the more I think that Sansa might actually enjoy having a relationship with a young man as Alayne Stone. Of course, this assumes that Harry is not completely awful. If he is awful, then, of course, Sansa will be rather unhappy.

I'm inclined to agree with others on Sansa's ultimate reaction to HtH. I don't think she will fall for it. We've got some clues with what he is really like based upon his reputation and the fact that he's fathered two bastards already at such a young age.

No idea what Harry's personality will be like but my guess is that he will come across, superficially at least, as a decent and nice person. Martin left her final chapter on a cliffhanger with LF dangling lots of prizes in front of her - a great marriage, Lady of the Vale, and Winterfell. But, the cost is that she will have to get married again for her claim and that SR will have to do. I believe Martin will try to present this as a dilemma or a temptation for Sansa. If HtH comes across as another Joffrey, or a drunken lecher like Robert, or using her for her claim like Tyrion then Sansa's decision is made that much easier. But, if he comes across as generally decent then it will make it that much harder. Ultimately though, I'm certain that she will not fall for his charm and will not desire another match purely for politics. The cost of SR's life in to the bargain will be just to high a price for her.

It's in my E book at the end of ACOK, it's prefaced by this:

Glad you all liked it!

I checked all of my e books and nothing like this. I have the kindle versions bought off of amazon. Maybe its from a particular edition that you have? Is it just this chapter or do some of the other books have this?

Seriously, thank you for sharing it.

And, I'm really frustrated by the missing like button. Lot's of great posts that I'm appreciating here but have no desire to flood the thread with response saying nothing but "I agree" or "Great post". Hope it comes back soon.

And Maiden - really looking forward to your essay.

[Fire Eater]

Sansa and Sandor and the phases of the ideal story of courtly love:

1. Woman ensnares man via attraction, and worshiped from afar, who is then declared the man's liege lord followed by the woman's ritual rejection of him

Sansa manages to get Sandor's attraction, and her ritual rejection of him in her refusing to go with him in ACoK.

2. The knight being rejected fall love-sick to literally the point of death.

After Sandor's wounding at the Crosssroads Inn, and by the side of the road with Arya he cries that he stood as he watched Sansa be abused. Out of chronological order I know

3. He then must do heroic deeds in order to prove himself to his lady

He saves Sansa from the angry mob, and saved Loras from Gregor.

4. After heroic deeds comes consummation.

Sandor leaves his blood stained white cloak with Sansa. The bloody white sheet was used to prove that consummation had occurred in the bedding of a wedding.

5. It is then followed by subterfuge, discovery and death.

Sandor leaves KL, and joins the QI. The Elder Brother said "The man you hunt is dead." The "Hound" aspect of Sandor is dead.

[brashcandy]

I came across another interesting article that I'll put in the Feminism resources. Remember that you can suggest a website or article which is relevant to this topic, and I'll add it to the list.

An excerpt from the latest essay called Sexual Pleasure as Feminist Choice:

... On one level, emotional calls are being made on women to conform to traditional roles as caregivers and nurturers. On another, their struggles for individual freedoms, social autonomy and bodily integrity are - often in subtle and devious ways - invalidated or curbed by a cultural climate that construes such choices and mobility as dangerous, irresponsible and selfish.

Without a discourse that enables women to step beyond the bounded, limited notions of sexuality as being either tied to reproduction or to the avoidance of disease or violation, we cannot begin to imagine ourselves in new and profoundly life-transforming ways. We have to see the cage for what it is - a set of carefully placed bars that keeps us locked into suffocating spaces efficiently reproduced by an uncompromising patriarchal system, and often closely patrolled by women from a cross-section of classes and social standings.

... It is this sense of sexual freedom that feeds our deep instincts and makes us long for a wildness within, a wildness that cannot be caged or marked in any way, and that propels us to search relentlessly for the wonder which we encompass. Clarissa Pinkola Estes describes those who follow this urge as "the women who run with the wolves". These women have girded themselves both with the political courage to shake off the shackles of patriarchal servitude, and the emotional will to discover new horizons of feeling and being.

I think I know someone who dreams of running with her wolf ;)

[brashcandy]

Sansa and Sandor and the phases of the ideal story of courtly love:

*snip*

Once again, not having the "like" button sucks. We've had some exploration on the courtly love features in their relationship in the past, but this is a nice addition, Fire Eater :)

[Raksha the Demon]

Once again, not having the "like" button sucks. We've had some exploration on the courtly love features in their relationship in the past, but this is a nice addition, Fire Eater :)

Off topic, but why was the like button eliminated? I miss it.

[brashcandy]

Off topic, but why was the like button eliminated? I miss it.

Contributing to board downtime again, I believe. Hopefully we'll get it back soon.

[Kittykatknits]

Off topic, but why was the like button eliminated? I miss it.

Contributing to board downtime again, I believe. Hopefully we'll get it back soon.

Yep, board down time. From what I am hearing, we won't get it back until there is an actual software solution in place and I have no idea how long that will take. I know it's just a button but I feel as if I've lost half my ability to communicate on here.

[Le Cygne]

I checked all of my e books and nothing like this. I have the kindle versions bought off of amazon. Maybe its from a particular edition that you have? Is it just this chapter or do some of the other books have this?

Seriously, thank you for sharing it.

I have the four book bundle, Kindle, too. Here are all the previews:

End of AGOT:

George R. R. Martin is full of surprises! In A CLASH OF KINGS the riveting sequel to

A GAME OF THRONES George not only continues the tales of characters we have come to know and love, but also adds some new stories to the mix. Here’s a preview:

THEON

End of ACOK:

Be sure not to miss A Storm of Swords the third novel in George R.R. Martin’s New York Times bestselling series A Song of Ice and Fire Available from Bantam Spectra Here’s a special preview

SANSA

End of ASOS:

There is never a dull moment with GEORGE R. R. MARTIN The epic tales set into motion in his landmark saga A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE continue in the next exciting installment A FEAST FOR CROWS Only, this time, with new viewpoints And all new surprises . . . Here is a special preview

CERSEI

End of AFFC:

And coming soon A DANCE WITH DRAGONS BY GEORGE R. R. MARTIN The epic continuation of his landmark series A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE Here’s a special preview:

DAENERYS

Also I have the paperback four book bundle and all of the same previews are there, too. The same wording differences noted are in the paperback Sansa chapter, too.

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh great, I got the four book bundle for the Kindle. Have to check the preview chapter out!

As for HtH, I agree with KittyKat that it makes sense for him to be presented as mostly amiable since it will create more conflict for Sansa. To have him appear clearly as a whoring drunkard will just make it too simple. I actually think Sansa may be temporarily or partly dazzled by him, but that due to her experiences so far, she will be able to break out of that. We also have the fact that Sweetrobin's life, annoying as he is, will not be an acceptable prize to pay.

In a way, Sweetrobin will then join Sansa's brothers as "obstacles" that need to get out of the way for her claim (or in this case the combination of hers and HtH's claim) and I think Sansa has had it with people dying so that she can be exploited for that claim. That is the material point that she never realised back in Kings Landing and which Robb never realised either. Once all her siblings are gone or murdered, then she stands there as a living, breathing claim. So her claim does not only dehumanise her, it's also bought with the blood of the people she love. Robb, Bran, Rickon were all murdered as far as Sansa knows while she was preserved like a pickled herring to be consumed by whomever was the greatest schemer. In light of those two things, I don't think her claim will ever be a net positive for Sansa.

We saw Jon Snow react somewhat similarly to it when Stannis offered it to him. Tempted yes (and that was almost what Jon desired the most, to become a "proper" lord and not a bastard) but ultimately, Jon knew the cost and the cost was paid by his half-siblings (again, as far as he knows). Family is important in Westeros, and the kinslayer accursed, so to gain prominence through a blood price your family paid is something even the Lannisters balk at. Tyrion cannot bring himself to consider murdering Joffrey since he is Jaime's son, for instance (and I actually don't think he really wants to murder Cersei or Jaime either, that's him trying to become the monster everyone says he is and that he thinks he is himself).

Fire Eater,

I think that comprehensive list illustrates really well that courtly love is an inspiration for the Sansa/Sandor interaction. Brienne and Jaime have some elements of it as well, although they often work along and inverted curve, or with a back and forth about who has the lady role and who has the knight role. Of course, none of them are played 100% straight, but it's clear enough that it's an inspiration. I mean, Sandor, Jaime and Brienne are all massively "failed" knights in more than one way and none of them fit the chivalry ideal (Brienne is closest, but she is after all a woman and Jaime is not really her lord either).

[Mahaut]

Sansa and Sandor and the phases of the ideal story of courtly love:

snip

Very interesting post Fire Eater :) . There is also something similar on wikipedia, here. It even mentions a very important element in their dynamic, the glance. Also, I think your post makes rather clear now that their relationship plays with all these elements.

I think that comprehensive list illustrates really well that courtly love is an inspiration for the Sansa/Sandor interaction. Brienne and Jaime have some elements of it as well, although they often work along and inverted curve, or with a back and forth about who has the lady role and who has the knight role. Of course, none of them are played 100% straight, but it's clear enough that it's an inspiration. I mean, Sandor, Jaime and Brienne are all massively "failed" knights in more than one way and none of them fit the chivalry ideal (Brienne is closest, but she is after all a woman and Jaime is not really her lord either).

I so agree with you Lyanna Stark. Troubadours introduced literary love features that are still widely used in romances nowadays. We’ve seen now all the similarities they are between their relationship and courtly love. This is why I believe SanSan is just a variation on that same theme.

[Mladen]

And Maiden - really looking forward to your essay.

Kitty, if this was intededed for me, first I am no maiden :blushing: . Secondly, it`s Mladen(male name), my proper first name. Common here at Balkans, quite exotic for Brits and Americans. No hard feelings, though. I have just seen it, and it made me laugh.

[Kittykatknits]

Kitty, if this was intededed for me, first I am no maiden :blushing: . Secondly, it`s Mladen(male name), my proper first name. Common here at Balkans, quite exotic for Brits and Americans. No hard feelings, though. I have just seen it, and it made me laugh.

It was intended for you and my only excuse is that I'm a bad (lazy) speller. I even knew the correct spelling. If it helps, I really am looking at forward to what you are writing. :)

[Mladen]

It was intended for you and my only excuse is that I'm a bad (lazy) speller. I even knew the correct spelling. If it helps, I really am looking at forward to what you are writing. :)

Well, in couple of days it will be over, I think. Brashcandy kindly offered to help me a bit. I am so nervous...you are tough crowd to please in best positive way, I mean :)

[Queen of Winter]

Long time no posting! I just wanted to mention a few things here if I might. I found the posts below as well as the recent posts about marriage, sparked something in my mind.......

There was a gown of purple silk that gave her pause, and another of dark blue velvet slashed with silver that would have woken all the color in her eyes, but in the end she remembered that Alayne was after all a bastard, and must not presume to dress above her station. The dress she picked was lambswool, dark brown and simply cut, with leaves and vines embroidered around the bodice, sleeves, and hem in golden thread. It was modest and becoming, though scarce richer than something a serving girl might wear. Petyr had given her all of Lady Lysa’s jewels as well, and she tried on several necklaces, but they all seemed ostentatious. In the end she chose a simple velvet ribbon in autumn gold. When Gretchel fetched her Lysa’s silvered looking glass, the color seemed just perfect with Alayne’s mass of dark brown hair. Lord Royce will never know me, she thought. Why, I hardly know myself.

The dress she chooses actually reminds me a bit of Arya's acorn dress because of the plants though I can't recall the color of that one. Where was Cersei's scene?

Arya's dress was light green with acorns:

Quoted from ASOS:

"...they insisted she dress herself in girl’s things, brown woolen stockings and a light linen shift, and over that a light green gown with acorns embroidered all over the bodice in brown thread, and more acorns bordering the hem."

This is probably way too romantic, but I tend to go there. If Sandor is associated with gold and autumn, he's lingering at the Quiet Isle not far away (she just got closer, by going down the mountain).

OK, here goes. And yes, Le Cygne, I'm going there too! So perhaps there are crackpots ahead.

We see both Arya and Sansa wearing gowns that are somewhat similar. I'd like to look at what stood out at me about the two dresses.

First, I find it very interesting that Arya is wearing a dress with acorns on it, and Sansa the one with leaves. Of the two Stark girls, it's been said that Sansa is the more "beautiful" one. She has "blossomed" into a woman so to speak--"fully flowered".

I took the acorns on Ayra's dress for the symbolism of---a green gown equaling "a green girl"---(young, untried) -and --acorns grow into trees. Also note the stockings are brown (like a tree trunk) and the dress is green (like treetops).

It's long been said that Arya looks like her Aunt Lyanna who had a "wild beauty" about her. Perhaps this is foreshadowing her coming into her own as she grows older. Maturing into a young woman and being beautiful, but having a different type of beauty than her sister.

Sansa's dress is brown, which I think is symbolizing the rich, fertile earth and the leaves represents a tree-- her blossoming into the woman she is on her way to becoming.

Crackpots to come.........

EDITED: Grammar *sigh*

[brashcandy]

Crackpots to come.........

So happy you popped in :) bring on the crackpots!

[Queen of Winter]

So happy you popped in :)

:grouphug:

bring on the crackpots!

You'll be sorry! :laugh:

Now for the crackpots. :uhoh: :blink: (Yeah I'm probably going to get it for this one.....).

I want to bring up the song, "Oh Lay My Sweet Lass Down in the Grass", (which personally is my favorite song from the books *coughs*). It's found in Arya's chapter where her acorn dress is mentioned.

These are the lyrics:

"My featherbed is deep and soft, and there I’ll lay you down,

I’ll dress you all in yellow silk, and on your head a crown.

For you shall be my lady love, and I shall be your lord.

I’ll always keep you warm and safe, and guard you with my sword."

And:

"And how she smiled and how she laughed, the maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him, no featherbed for me.

I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves, and bind my hair with grass,

But you can be my forest love, and me your forest lass."

I think the song might be able to be interpreted in two ways. The verses are in an Arya chapter--where it shows up in her chapter is when she returns to Acorn Hall with Gendry. Yellow is a Baratheon color, and if Gendry were legitimate, he would be King (hence a crown on her head if they married). So it could foreshadow something developing between them later on in the story, as the first verse is a male speaking, and the second, a woman's reply.

Also verse two of the song made me think of Arya, because of the "Maiden of the Tree" bit. It's been said that Lyanna is the "Knight of the Laughing Tree", so I thought that might be a parallel reference. Also I can see Arya shunning a feather bed ("no featherbed for me") and creature comforts.

As for the wearing a dress with "golden leaves", I'm not totally sure about that, it could be as I stated earlier about the two dresses. The "acorn dress" becomes a "leaf dress" as Arya matures and becomes a woman.

My second thought of how it could be interpreted is as follows, is very crackpotish, but here goes:

The first verse makes me think of Sansa and possibly Sandor, and a bit of Tyrion as well.

In ASOS after Sansa's wedding we have Tyrion trying to get her to "do her duty". We know Sansa did not want to marry Tyrion, nor did she want to have sex with him, though he certainly wanted her in that way.

And we have this from that chapter:

"She climbed onto the featherbed, conscious of his stare."

The part of her climbing into the featherbed contrasts with the song line above, and also with the dream she had later on about her wedding night with Tyrion turning Sandor--yet when it was Sandor climbing into her bed:

"And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. “I wish that you were Lady,” she said.

Then we have the line: " For you shall be my lady love, and I shall be your lord." Both Tyrion and Sandor seemed to have some kind of feelings for Sansa. I know we've discussed how they are different from one another in various thread incarnations, so I'm not going to delve into that here.

As for the part of the song about "I’ll always keep you warm and safe, and guard you with my sword"

It was Sandor who told Sansa in ACOK: “I could keep you safe,” he rasped. “They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them.”

The part about shunning the featherbed? I look at it this way, we know Sansa has had to give up a lot to stay hidden in the Vale and during that time, she's thought she might want to stay Alayne Stone. In the past we've talked a lot about how she might be willing to give up certain things (nice dresses, luxuries, etc) and live simply, if she could find a man that wanted/loved her for herself and not her claim.

I'm not totally sure about where the song mentions the dress of golden leaves and the gown of yellow silk. As noted above, Sansa has worn a dress with golden leaves on it, and yellow/gold is also a House Clegane color. Could this also be something that comes in later in the story?

Like I said, total crackpot....... :laugh:

[Le Cygne]

The part about shunning the featherbed? I look at it this way, we know Sansa has had to give up a lot to stay hidden in the Vale and during that time, she's thought she might want to stay Alayne Stone. In the past we've talked a lot about how she might be willing to give up certain things (nice dresses, luxuries, etc) and live simply, if she could find a man that wanted/loved her for herself and not her claim.

I'm not totally sure about where the song mentions the dress of golden leaves and the gown of yellow silk. As noted above, Sansa has worn a dress with golden leaves on it, and yellow/gold is also a House Clegane color. Could this also be something that comes in later in the story?

Queen of Winter, I love it! And I meant to mention this, too, but I wasn't so brave, the part about dogs in the yard outside, but there is your featherbed, too:

The same chapter as:

On the valley floor autumn still lingered, warm and golden, but winter had closed around the mountain peaks.

and

“You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?”

She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he’d kissed her, and gave a nod.

(get out of our crackpot, Tyrion! :))

She thinks this:

It will be a featherbed, she told herself, soft and warm and deep, piled high with furs. I will dream a sweet dream, and when I wake there will be dogs barking, women gossiping beside the well, swords ringing in the yard. And later there will be a feast, with music and dancing.

And of course my mind is going there with swords again.

[brashcandy]

Very nice QoW and Le Cygne :) How can I complain when this crackpotting is so divine?

[Queen of Winter]

Queen of Winter, I love it! And I meant to mention this, too, but I wasn't so brave, the part about dogs in the yard outside, but there is your featherbed, too....

Thanks, Le Cygne. It's an interesting set of parallels, no? It all depends on how you look at things. :D

(get out of our crackpot, Tyrion! :)

Indeed! :angry: (And I could not resist going there either!)

Very nice QoW and Le Cygne How can I complain when this crackpotting is so divine? :)

Just a little something to mull over! :P

[brashcandy]

Ok, so maybe she wouldn't get the featherbed, but do you girls think she'd settle for a straw pallet? :P

Brienne had to duck when entering to keep from banging her head against the lintel. Inside she found a dirt floor, a straw pallet, furs and blankets to keep her warm ...

(at the QI)