From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVII

[1234567]

Wonderful points Rapsie

This chapter also seemed to put another nail in the coffin of the Sansa/Aegon match - unless GRRM has a twist up his sleeve. On Sansa's possible role in the dance of dragons - the performance she goes to see is of a troupe of singers performing a "complex round of interwoven ballads called the Dance of the Dragons." This could suggest her watching from the sidelines, but I think the terms "complex" and "interwoven" highlight that all of the major players will somehow be drawn into these events. And there's the musical associations with the character again; perhaps she'll be the one to bring harmony to the discordant factions.

I really loved your points on how Sansa is a much more capable player, and I'm willing to bet that had Sansa heard Dany's story, she would be considerably more sympathetic and intuitive about the struggles Dany must have undergone given her own experiences. Now that I can cross Arianne out as a potential Dany BFF, my theory of her and Sansa joining forces at some point lives on :)

Excellent pick-up on the musical associations with the Dance of Dragons and Sansa. Also Sansa in the audience fits nicely with the Vale as politically and militarily speaking they have been watching the War of the Five Kings from the sidelines and have not participated. It is possible that Sansa maybe the one to finally bring the Vale into action, or be a diplomatic envoy of sorts. While we do not know the nature of the Singers Song, audience participation is part of the oral tradition, be it joining the chorus or the finally song, or as in a pantomine, shouting out advice to the characters (something that also features in Rocky Horror Show screenings as well). It could well be that Sansa is the outside influence that brings the Dance to a conclusion. Also in terms of Sansa's capabilities, she unlike Cersei and Arienne, is aware tha beauty does nothing for you when you become a pirah at court. Although she is beautiful, I don't think it will ever be a skill she relies on. She may indeed grow up to be a nicer and kinder version of the QoT.

I completely agree that the nails are going into the Aegon/ Sansa theory at a rate of knots (which is a shame as I really thought it was a goer for a while). Sansa being a friend to Dany is also looking more likely as they have many parallels to each other and are essentially good, kind and nice people. There may be a point of interest in who Tyrion will side with. I wonder if he may steal one or more of Dany's dragons, and side with Aegon. Could both Tyrion and Aegon be dragon riders to the same dragon?

I do not like the idea of what may happen to Sansa if Tyrion is allied with Dany. Saying that we have the image in AGOT of Sansa being protected in a cacoon of Dragon fire in the God's Wood. While there seems to be an idea that Tyrion would make an excellent hand, the Tyrion re-read has shown more and more that he actually wasn't that great and ironically Sansa would actually make a better Hand of the Queen. Also we are seeing a shift in power dynamics and Dany is not as sceptical of women's abilities as Cersei and much of the rest of Westeros is.

Also no one seems to mention Jon in the Dance. The girl who has the dragon dreams, may also have been dreaming of Jon as his story is being set up for lots of death and destruction.

Further sidenote: Sylva's punishment, unlike the other conspiritors is for life.

[brashcandy]

Arianne chp spoiler discussion

Excellent pick-up on the musical associations with the Dance of Dragons and Sansa. Also Sansa in the audience fits nicely with the Vale as politically and militarily speaking they have been watching the War of the Five Kings from the sidelines and have not participated. It is possible that Sansa maybe the one to finally bring the Vale into action, or be a diplomatic envoy of sorts. While we do not know the nature of the Singers Song, audience participation is part of the oral tradition, be it joining the chorus or the finally song, or as in a pantomine, shouting out advice to the characters (something that also features in Rocky Horror Show screenings as well). It could well be that Sansa is the outside influence that brings the Dance to a conclusion. Also in terms of Sansa's capabilities, she unlike Cersei and Arienne, is aware tha beauty does nothing for you when you become a pirah at court. Although she is beautiful, I don't think it will ever be a skill she relies on. She may indeed grow up to be a nicer and kinder version of the QoT.

I completely agree that the nails are going into the Aegon/ Sansa theory at a rate of knots (which is a shame as I really thought it was a goer for a while). Sansa being a friend to Dany is also looking more likely as they have many parallels to each other and are essentially good, kind and nice people. There may be a point of interest in who Tyrion will side with. I wonder if he may steal one or more of Dany's dragons, and side with Aegon. Could both Tyrion and Aegon be dragon riders to the same dragon?

I do not like the idea of what may happen to Sansa if Tyrion is allied with Dany. Saying that we have the image in AGOT of Sansa being protected in a cacoon of Dragon fire in the God's Wood. While there seems to be an idea that Tyrion would make an excellent hand, the Tyrion re-read has shown more and more that he actually wasn't that great and ironically Sansa would actually make a better Hand of the Queen. Also we are seeing a shift in power dynamics and Dany is not as sceptical of women's abilities as Cersei and much of the rest of Westeros is.

Also no one seems to mention Jon in the Dance. The girl who has the dragon dreams, may also have been dreaming of Jon as his story is being set up for lots of death and destruction.

Further sidenote: Sylva's punishment, unlike the other conspiritors is for life.

Yes, Sansa would be just as capable as Tyrion I believe, but also a lot more conscientious. There are valid theories floating around that Dany could land in the Vale, and if Tyrion is coming back as an advisor, well he has a lot of personal reasons to seek out this region first. There's also foreshadowing associated with Sweetrobin and his love of the winged knight, and Sansa's own little bird associations, as well as being a winged wolf.

I believe a dragon can only have one rider.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

In addition to KittyKats and BrashCandy’s comments above.

Neither Arienne or Cersei have ever been taught how to play the Game of Thrones. Arienne’s comments highlight that until now her major strength, in her mind at least, is seduction. I can only presume Doran must have had this idea of her being a consort Queen to Viserys, who has nothing to do with politics (I think Doran is ultimately going to fail hugely). He never taught her about diplomacy and that has left her trying to fall back on what she knows works. The same is true to an extent with Cersei. Neither really know how to analyse people or read them. Arienne at least knows her weakness to handsome men.

We see she is beginning to try and work out people’s characters from their actions as we see with her analyse of Dany (even if she gets it totally wrong, it is sound reasoning). For her age however she is woefully behind the likes of Margery Tyrell in terms of political manouvering. Now compare this to Sansa: who has learnt whilst very young to hold her tougue, watch her movements and certainly began to work out the background motivations and politics of situations, even before escaping to the Eyrie. Unlike both Doran and Tywin, Sansa is being shown how the game is played and her own skills already outstrip both Arienne and Cersei. Sansa has had more growth in terms of assessing people's characters and seeing the bigger picture. Edit: Why would these stark (excuse the pun) contrasts be there is Sansa was not going to do something politically desicive in the future, which may relate to the observations about Sansa watching the Dance of Dragons. This suggests to me at least that she will watch the dance play out but not necessarily play an active part, or may be an outside influence on the end result.

Another part of the chapter which may relate to Sansa is Arienne’s questioning Dany's motive's behind Viserys death and her assumption that once Viserys was King she would have to sleep in a tent for the rest of her life and questioning whether Dany had made a power grab. This mirrors the possible thoughts others have regarding Sansa. LF has said he could raise an army for her, but I do not think this is necessarily the case. No one in the North is aware of the level of abuse she suffered in KL (given the comments about Myrcella’s maiming and Oakheart's thoughts on hitting Sansa, it seems more and more like her treatment was extreme and unusual) and although Robb and Cat assume correctly that she was forced into marriage, Robb's Will combined with those who do not know her, may have many assuming she had jumped ship with her eye on the winning side. Will she be viewed as a traitor or at least with suspicion? If she was bitter before about being made a Lannister, this may indeed cause her to lament it even further.

Then there are the ramifications of Rickon being found. While not a direct heiress any more, she is still a powerful piece in terms of a marriage alliance, but with having being traded so many times as a piece already, how will she look at marriage in the future. An unwillingness to enter an arranged marriage does not (looking at previous discussions) bode well for the outcome of any such marriage. While the Sansa who would make Willas Tyrell love her, may have indeed succeeded in that arranged marriage, the Sansa who has been through the awful experience with Tyrion, does not want to face something like that again. Edit: she no longer wants a marriage of political construct but wonders if she will be loved for herself. Again this returns to the question of agency. Whether she will make an alliance for the sake of family or if she will use her own skills to marry someone if not completely of her choice, then at least one she feels she can be happy with.

On a side note:

The mention of armies in the passes, may tie in to the Cyvasse game Myrcella told Arys about. She said that Trystane was predictable and always put his armies in the passes and her Dragons came along and destroyed them. As highlighted above Doran is trying a similar strategy yet again with Arienne (sending an untrained and probably unsuitable person to treat for Dorne) while we have imagery of the same tactic repeatedly failing for Quentyn.

There may also be inverse imagery, Doran was the oldest of three children and the younger two died. Trystane is the youngest of three children and the older two may die.

Also If Daemon Sand ends up bedding both Connington and Arienne, could Arienne be at risk from Greyscale?

And on a final note we yet again see a woman receiving a sexualised punishment in the treatment of her friend Sylvia Sylva. While the men in her group are exiled for a period of time to not exactly uncomfortamble locations, Syliva Sylva is forced into marriage with a man in his 70s. Given the huge age difference and the circumstances, I can't see how this marriage could possibly work?

Another Edit: Because not only did I get Sylva's name wrong, I also spelt it differently twice within two lines. Impressive fail, me thinks.

I'm starting to think that Doran really isn't the mastermind we think he is. Rather he is super cautious which has stopped him from making any huge, idiotic mistakes that someone else with his ability and power would have made.

Agreed, and his fantasy was based on Robb being dead so he could claim Winterfell through Sansa, which he very well knew going into the marriage.

I have been pondering something about Dorne and the acceptance of paramours since before I read the new chapter, but from what I read in that chapter it makes me question this even more. I had been wondering just how accepting of paramours the Dornish really are. The only good example we have is Oberyn with Ellaria Sand, but Oberyn seemed like the kind of guy who if you tried to tell him not to do something like that would just say "f*** off!" I just wonder if most others in Dorne would be pressured into keeping more conventional relationships and Oberyn was more of an exception than might seem at first glance. With how Daemon's request for Arianne's hand was rejected suggests to me that Dorne is not really all that different and Arianne still wanting to have a relationship with him might be acceptable for now while she is not yet married. Would it be as accepted once she was married? Similarly, Rapsie made a great point above about how poor Spotted Sylva was treated for her participation in Arianne's plan. That is not any different than what happened to Lysa, again suggesting that Dorne is not so different after all.

I kinda suspected this too. The Red Viper was an overpowering personality. His daughters can be seen as an example of this. They seem to represent some aspect of himself more than their mothers.

Sorta crackpot: Elia Sand and Sansa will meet, and it will be important. Actually, it is this Thread that made me think of that. I've long held a North/Dorne alliance since early GoT. Elia is a Dornish girl who acts remarkably like Arya. If Sansa does get drawn into the Dance of Dragons, it would likely cause them to meet. It would be interesting to see her reaction to a girl like Arya but not with all the sisters issues they have.

Then again, the Dance does not necessarily have to be (F?)Aegon vs Dany. If Victorian steals a dragon or two with the horn, it could easily destroy Slaver's Bay and/or Essos rather than Westeros.

Further sidenote: Sylva's punishment, unlike the other conspiritors is for life.

Not really. He'll probably be dead in not too long (Walder Frey is an exception) and widows remarry.

I'm not saying marrying an old man is better or equal to the various exiles. It's still the worst punishment (besides Myrcella who was innocent in the whole affair). I just don't believe her life is ruined beyond repair.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

In addition to KittyKats and BrashCandy’s comments above.

Neither Arienne or Cersei have ever been taught how to play the Game of Thrones. Arienne’s comments highlight that until now her major strength, in her mind at least, is seduction. I can only presume Doran must have had this idea of her being a consort Queen to Viserys, who has nothing to do with politics (I think Doran is ultimately going to fail hugely). He never taught her about diplomacy and that has left her trying to fall back on what she knows works. The same is true to an extent with Cersei. Neither really know how to analyse people or read them. Arienne at least knows her weakness to handsome men.

We see she is beginning to try and work out people’s characters from their actions as we see with her analyse of Dany (even if she gets it totally wrong, it is sound reasoning). For her age however she is woefully behind the likes of Margery Tyrell in terms of political manouvering. Now compare this to Sansa: who has learnt whilst very young to hold her tougue, watch her movements and certainly began to work out the background motivations and politics of situations, even before escaping to the Eyrie. Unlike both Doran and Tywin, Sansa is being shown how the game is played and her own skills already outstrip both Arienne and Cersei. Sansa has had more growth in terms of assessing people's characters and seeing the bigger picture. Edit: Why would these stark (excuse the pun) contrasts be there is Sansa was not going to do something politically desicive in the future, which may relate to the observations about Sansa watching the Dance of Dragons. This suggests to me at least that she will watch the dance play out but not necessarily play an active part, or may be an outside influence on the end result.

Another part of the chapter which may relate to Sansa is Arienne’s questioning Dany's motive's behind Viserys death and her assumption that once Viserys was King she would have to sleep in a tent for the rest of her life and questioning whether Dany had made a power grab. This mirrors the possible thoughts others have regarding Sansa. LF has said he could raise an army for her, but I do not think this is necessarily the case. No one in the North is aware of the level of abuse she suffered in KL (given the comments about Myrcella’s maiming and Oakheart's thoughts on hitting Sansa, it seems more and more like her treatment was extreme and unusual) and although Robb and Cat assume correctly that she was forced into marriage, Robb's Will combined with those who do not know her, may have many assuming she had jumped ship with her eye on the winning side. Will she be viewed as a traitor or at least with suspicion? If she was bitter before about being made a Lannister, this may indeed cause her to lament it even further.

Then there are the ramifications of Rickon being found. While not a direct heiress any more, she is still a powerful piece in terms of a marriage alliance, but with having being traded so many times as a piece already, how will she look at marriage in the future. An unwillingness to enter an arranged marriage does not (looking at previous discussions) bode well for the outcome of any such marriage. While the Sansa who would make Willas Tyrell love her, may have indeed succeeded in that arranged marriage, the Sansa who has been through the awful experience with Tyrion, does not want to face something like that again. Edit: she no longer wants a marriage of political construct but wonders if she will be loved for herself. Again this returns to the question of agency. Whether she will make an alliance for the sake of family or if she will use her own skills to marry someone if not completely of her choice, then at least one she feels she can be happy with.

On a side note:

The mention of armies in the passes, may tie in to the Cyvasse game Myrcella told Arys about. She said that Trystane was predictable and always put his armies in the passes and her Dragons came along and destroyed them. As highlighted above Doran is trying a similar strategy yet again with Arienne (sending an untrained and probably unsuitable person to treat for Dorne) while we have imagery of the same tactic repeatedly failing for Quentyn.

There may also be inverse imagery, Doran was the oldest of three children and the younger two died. Trystane is the youngest of three children and the older two may die.

Also If Daemon Sand ends up bedding both Connington and Arienne, could Arienne be at risk from Greyscale?

And on a final note we yet again see a woman receiving a sexualised punishment in the treatment of her friend Sylvia Sylva. While the men in her group are exiled for a period of time to not exactly uncomfortamble locations, Syliva Sylva is forced into marriage with a man in his 70s. Given the huge age difference and the circumstances, I can't see how this marriage could possibly work?

Another Edit: Because not only did I get Sylva's name wrong, I also spelt it differently twice within two lines. Impressive fail, me thinks.

Don't worry about Sylva's name, she's referred to as "Slyva" throughout the sample chapter. :lol:

Very interesting comparison between Arianne and Cersei. Both do rely on that "woman's other weapon" to get their way. I was thinking that Arianne isn't as malevolent as Cersei at first, but then really thought about it and concluded she's a pretty selfish user as well: she used Arys, he was besotted by her, broke his vows for her, and to Arianne he was a means to an end. Myrcella, too, though she's not dead (yet) - Arianne wanted her on the Iron Throne for her own ends. (Boy oh boy I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Lady Nym brings Myrcella to Cersei and the latter wants to know WTH happened to her daughter's face and ear! Cersei is not going to be jumping for joy.) Arianne is not as blatantly, gratuitously cruel as Cersei, and she does love her family. But when you think about it, she's quite ruthless and cruel when she wants to be.

And you are right, neither woman has been taught to play the game in the way that Sansa is learning. Both women are flailing about, trying to use the only thing they really know how and that is sex. Sansa is learning much more cunning and much more gender-neutral (and less obvious) ways of playing the game.

I suspect that Daemon Sand might well have been sent to seduce JonCon. Same-sex liaisons seem to be, if not accepted, at least less hush-hush than in the rest of Westeros. Doran knows about JonCon being gay and isn't going to kid himself that JonCon wants a hot girl and not a hot guy. :D

It will be interesting to see if Sansa is going to be viewed with the same suspicion Dany is now in Dorne. We, the readers, know that there was not a think Dany could do about her brother's execution. We also know that Quentyn basically won himself a "Darwin Award" thinking that taming a dragon would be easy and fun. Trystane seems like a nice kid, and if he inherits Dorne, or even if he doesn't, (crackpot here) I think he'd be a good husband for Arya, who is a lot like Elia Sand; Arya's tomboyish ways would probably get an indulgent smile and not a horrified "act like a real lady!"

Agreed, and his fantasy was based on Robb being dead so he could claim Winterfell through Sansa, which he very well knew going into the marriage.

I have been pondering something about Dorne and the acceptance of paramours since before I read the new chapter, but from what I read in that chapter it makes me question this even more. I had been wondering just how accepting of paramours the Dornish really are. The only good example we have is Oberyn with Ellaria Sand, but Oberyn seemed like the kind of guy who if you tried to tell him not to do something like that would just say "f*** off!" I just wonder if most others in Dorne would be pressured into keeping more conventional relationships and Oberyn was more of an exception than might seem at first glance. With how Daemon's request for Arianne's hand was rejected suggests to me that Dorne is not really all that different and Arianne still wanting to have a relationship with him might be acceptable for now while she is not yet married. Would it be as accepted once she was married? Similarly, Rapsie made a great point above about how poor Spotted Sylva was treated for her participation in Arianne's plan. That is not any different than what happened to Lysa, again suggesting that Dorne is not so different after all.

Interesting analysis, Elba. And really pointing out some interesting facts. I see Spotted Sylva's situation as resulting from the fact that she took part in a "treasonous" act plus she is an heiress, so Doran might have been neutralizing a potentially rebellious bannerwoman as well as punishing Sylva. And punishing Arianne by making her feel guilty about her friend.

OTOH, Arianne is not a virgin and her father seems to overlook her sex life in a way that I don't see fathers in other parts of Westeros doing. Mace Tyrell would crap his pants if Margaery were really carrying on with his knights, for instance. If Shireen Baratheon and Devan Seaworth decided to sleep together, Stannis would grind his teeth into powder. There is no indication that Arianne would have to go through the kind of virginity test that was demanded of Margaery, though I doubt her situation is common.

So it seems as if a discreet sex life before marriage is fine, but when it comes to marriage, Dornish women are more restricted than we might think. OTOH, Ellaria Sand is accepted as a member of the family, and Doran respects her, and she is welcome at her father's house. She is a bastard, though, and I think that might make a difference. Ellaria wouldn't be a prized marriage partner, and besides, she was Oberyn Martell's paramour, and being mistress to one of the royal family has tremendous advantages for the mistress' family. Ellaria is "paramouring" UP, not down, the social ladder and I think that is important.

Wonderful points Rapsie

This chapter also seemed to put another nail in the coffin of the Sansa/Aegon match - unless GRRM has a twist up his sleeve. On Sansa's possible role in the dance of dragons - the performance she goes to see is of a troupe of singers performing a "complex round of interwoven ballads called the Dance of the Dragons." This could suggest her watching from the sidelines, but I think the terms "complex" and "interwoven" highlight that all of the major players will somehow be drawn into these events. And there's the musical associations with the character again; perhaps she'll be the one to bring harmony to the discordant factions.

I really loved your points on how Sansa is a much more capable player, and I'm willing to bet that had Sansa heard Dany's story, she would be considerably more sympathetic and intuitive about the struggles Dany must have undergone given her own experiences. Now that I can cross Arianne out as a potential Dany BFF, my theory of her and Sansa joining forces at some point lives on :)

I confess I breathed a sigh of "whew" when I noted that the signs seemed to point to an Arianne/Aegon match and not a Sansa/Aegon one. Not that I hate the idea of Sansa/Aegon on its own terms, but I didn't want to see Sansa shopped around to yet another potential mate as a piece of meat. She's had too much of that already.

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see a Sansa/Dany alliance and friendship. LOVE. I think Sansa could be of great benefit for Dany due to the reasons above. I like the idea of women helping women. It would be so much more satisfying for me to read about Sansa getting power through a friendship with a queen rather than having to be someone's wife in a marriage she doesn't want, in order to gain power.

And in addition to becoming a good player, Sansa knows her history and heraldry backwards and forwards. Arya explicitly noted in GoT how good Sansa is at that sort of thing. When Sansa first meets Renly, she knows exactly who he is due to his resemblance to Robert and his coat of arms. When she meets the Lords Declarant, she knows everyone's heraldry so she knows who they are. Sansa knows Westerosi culture in a way Dany does not, and she would be the perfect person to help tutor Dany in this knowledge, which Dany will need if she is to be Queen on the Iron Throne.

Finally, a friendship with Dany might help Sansa to avoid an unwanted marriage - "if the Queen says I don't have to, then I don't have to."

An interesting parallel between Sansa and Dany, versus Arianne and Cersei, is that neither Sansa nor Dany try to use seduction as a weapon, except for Dany in her marriage to Khal Drogo - and he was her husband, not some catspaw. Dany wants Daario because she is attracted to him, not in order to manipulate him. She marries Hizdar zo Whatsis to consolidate her hold on Meereen, and she doesn't really think of seducing him, just "oh no, I hate having to marry this guy but I'll do what it takes." Likewise, Sansa is beautiful but she doesn't use her beauty to get men to work for her. On the contrary, she's quite skeeved most of the time when she is hit on. I think, though, if she were on the receiving end of flirtation and lust from someone who truly loved and valued her, not her claim, she wouldn't be so skeeved.

Lots to think about in that one little chapter!

[brashcandy]

I confess I breathed a sigh of "whew" when I noted that the signs seemed to point to an Arianne/Aegon match and not a Sansa/Aegon one. Not that I hate the idea of Sansa/Aegon on its own terms, but I didn't want to see Sansa shopped around to yet another potential mate as a piece of meat. She's had too much of that already.

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see a Sansa/Dany alliance and friendship. LOVE. I think Sansa could be of great benefit for Dany due to the reasons above. I like the idea of women helping women. It would be so much more satisfying for me to read about Sansa getting power through a friendship with a queen rather than having to be someone's wife in a marriage she doesn't want, in order to gain power.

And in addition to becoming a good player, Sansa knows her history and heraldry backwards and forwards. Arya explicitly noted in GoT how good Sansa is at that sort of thing. When Sansa first meets Renly, she knows exactly who he is due to his resemblance to Robert and his coat of arms. When she meets the Lords Declarant, she knows everyone's heraldry so she knows who they are. Sansa knows Westerosi culture in a way Dany does not, and she would be the perfect person to help tutor Dany in this knowledge, which Dany will need if she is to be Queen on the Iron Throne.

Finally, a friendship with Dany might help Sansa to avoid an unwanted marriage - "if the Queen says I don't have to, then I don't have to."

An interesting parallel between Sansa and Dany, versus Arianne and Cersei, is that neither Sansa nor Dany try to use seduction as a weapon, except for Dany in her marriage to Khal Drogo - and he was her husband, not some catspaw. Dany wants Daario because she is attracted to him, not in order to manipulate him. She marries Hizdar zo Whatsis to consolidate her hold on Meereen, and she doesn't really think of seducing him, just "oh no, I hate having to marry this guy but I'll do what it takes." Likewise, Sansa is beautiful but she doesn't use her beauty to get men to work for her. On the contrary, she's quite skeeved most of the time when she is hit on. I think, though, if she were on the receiving end of flirtation and lust from someone who truly loved and valued her, not her claim, she wouldn't be so skeeved.

Lots to think about in that one little chapter!

Oh I know! I think that's one of the reasons GRRM decided to release it. It's deceptively simple, but really contains nuggets of gold for most of the major plot lines readers are looking forward to and relevance to issues like female power and agency etc. And yes, I am so down with the Daemon Sand/Jon Con theory :)

I love the idea of a Dany/Sansa alliance too. Indeed, as you highlighted, there are some really interesting parallels in their storylines and behaviour. Arianne is pretty much looking to justify her resentment of Dany, and based on her disappointment over Viserys, should end up pursuing Aegon to make a marriage alliance. Will Elia Sand pose a problem here though? Arianne calls her half a child, but she's 14 - the same age Arianne lost her virginity.

[brashcandy]

Just look at this thread - spoiler tags everywhere.... can you guys imagine if we had gotten a Sansa chapter? :lol:

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Don't worry about Sylva's name, she's referred to as "Slyva" throughout the sample chapter. :lol:

Very interesting comparison between Arianne and Cersei. Both do rely on that "woman's other weapon" to get their way. I was thinking that Arianne isn't as malevolent as Cersei at first, but then really thought about it and concluded she's a pretty selfish user as well: she used Arys, he was besotted by her, broke his vows for her, and to Arianne he was a means to an end. Myrcella, too, though she's not dead (yet) - Arianne wanted her on the Iron Throne for her own ends. (Boy oh boy I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Lady Nym brings Myrcella to Cersei and the latter wants to know WTH happened to her daughter's face and ear! Cersei is not going to be jumping for joy.) Arianne is not as blatantly, gratuitously cruel as Cersei, and she does love her family. But when you think about it, she's quite ruthless and cruel when she wants to be.

And you are right, neither woman has been taught to play the game in the way that Sansa is learning. Both women are flailing about, trying to use the only thing they really know how and that is sex. Sansa is learning much more cunning and much more gender-neutral (and less obvious) ways of playing the game.

I suspect that Daemon Sand might well have been sent to seduce JonCon. Same-sex liaisons seem to be, if not accepted, at least less hush-hush than in the rest of Westeros. Doran knows about JonCon being gay and isn't going to kid himself that JonCon wants a hot girl and not a hot guy. :D

It will be interesting to see if Sansa is going to be viewed with the same suspicion Dany is now in Dorne. We, the readers, know that there was not a think Dany could do about her brother's execution. We also know that Quentyn basically won himself a "Darwin Award" thinking that taming a dragon would be easy and fun. Trystane seems like a nice kid, and if he inherits Dorne, or even if he doesn't, (crackpot here) I think he'd be a good husband for Arya, who is a lot like Elia Sand; Arya's tomboyish ways would probably get an indulgent smile and not a horrified "act like a real lady!"

Interesting analysis, Elba. And really pointing out some interesting facts. I see Spotted Sylva's situation as resulting from the fact that she took part in a "treasonous" act plus she is an heiress, so Doran might have been neutralizing a potentially rebellious bannerwoman as well as punishing Sylva. And punishing Arianne by making her feel guilty about her friend.

OTOH, Arianne is not a virgin and her father seems to overlook her sex life in a way that I don't see fathers in other parts of Westeros doing. Mace Tyrell would crap his pants if Margaery were really carrying on with his knights, for instance. If Shireen Baratheon and Devan Seaworth decided to sleep together, Stannis would grind his teeth into powder. There is no indication that Arianne would have to go through the kind of virginity test that was demanded of Margaery, though I doubt her situation is common.

So it seems as if a discreet sex life before marriage is fine, but when it comes to marriage, Dornish women are more restricted than we might think. OTOH, Ellaria Sand is accepted as a member of the family, and Doran respects her, and she is welcome at her father's house. She is a bastard, though, and I think that might make a difference. Ellaria wouldn't be a prized marriage partner, and besides, she was Oberyn Martell's paramour, and being mistress to one of the royal family has tremendous advantages for the mistress' family. Ellaria is "paramouring" UP, not down, the social ladder and I think that is important.

I confess I breathed a sigh of "whew" when I noted that the signs seemed to point to an Arianne/Aegon match and not a Sansa/Aegon one. Not that I hate the idea of Sansa/Aegon on its own terms, but I didn't want to see Sansa shopped around to yet another potential mate as a piece of meat. She's had too much of that already.

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see a Sansa/Dany alliance and friendship. LOVE. I think Sansa could be of great benefit for Dany due to the reasons above. I like the idea of women helping women. It would be so much more satisfying for me to read about Sansa getting power through a friendship with a queen rather than having to be someone's wife in a marriage she doesn't want, in order to gain power.

And in addition to becoming a good player, Sansa knows her history and heraldry backwards and forwards. Arya explicitly noted in GoT how good Sansa is at that sort of thing. When Sansa first meets Renly, she knows exactly who he is due to his resemblance to Robert and his coat of arms. When she meets the Lords Declarant, she knows everyone's heraldry so she knows who they are. Sansa knows Westerosi culture in a way Dany does not, and she would be the perfect person to help tutor Dany in this knowledge, which Dany will need if she is to be Queen on the Iron Throne.

Finally, a friendship with Dany might help Sansa to avoid an unwanted marriage - "if the Queen says I don't have to, then I don't have to."

An interesting parallel between Sansa and Dany, versus Arianne and Cersei, is that neither Sansa nor Dany try to use seduction as a weapon, except for Dany in her marriage to Khal Drogo - and he was her husband, not some catspaw. Dany wants Daario because she is attracted to him, not in order to manipulate him. She marries Hizdar zo Whatsis to consolidate her hold on Meereen, and she doesn't really think of seducing him, just "oh no, I hate having to marry this guy but I'll do what it takes." Likewise, Sansa is beautiful but she doesn't use her beauty to get men to work for her. On the contrary, she's quite skeeved most of the time when she is hit on. I think, though, if she were on the receiving end of flirtation and lust from someone who truly loved and valued her, not her claim, she wouldn't be so skeeved.

Lots to think about in that one little chapter!

Another benefit, I think it could be the biggest one, is that Sansa could teach Dany a gentler way to rule. If Dany is meant to be a good character, she needs to learn how to rule like one. To be fair to Dany, her only guides are Viserys (who must have told her his plans) and Khal Drogo. She is all "Fire and Blood." Or at least she tries to be. It could make sense on some level. She tried to rule Mereen as a tyrant (like her brother told her royalty should be) and a khal. But Dany is neither of those things truly. She would be a better ruler if she ruled in a manner more suited her. Sansa could go a long way in teaching her how.

If she is meant to be a hero character. I'm still leaning towards her being a villain. Though the idea of Sansa teaching her other ways to rule makes me think it a less certain (though still fairly sure). Sorry if I'm not making sense with this last bit.

Just look at this thread - spoiler tags everywhere.... can you guys imagine if we had gotten a Sansa chapter? :lol:

I think we'd have to move the next PtP Thread to the WoW spoiler forum.

[1234567]

Just look at this thread - spoiler tags everywhere.... can you guys imagine if we had gotten a Sansa chapter? :lol:

Indeed I can, although if we had, I probably would not have had any sleep since for two days and we would be at least 2 threads ahead of where we are now. :)

[Elba the Intoner]

Just look at this thread - spoiler tags everywhere.... can you guys imagine if we had gotten a Sansa chapter? :lol:

Indeed I can, although if we had, I probably would not have had any sleep since for two days and we would be at least 2 threads ahead of where we are now. :)

Ha Ha yeah me too. It's a good thing for my marriage that we didn't get a Sansa chapter :)

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Oh I know! I think that's one of the reasons GRRM decided to release it. It's deceptively simple, but really contains nuggets of gold for most of the major plot lines readers are looking forward to and relevance to issues like female power and agency etc. And yes, I am so down with the Daemon Sand/Jon Con theory :)

I love the idea of a Dany/Sansa alliance too. Indeed, as you highlighted, there are some really interesting parallels in their storylines and behaviour. Arianne is pretty much looking to justify her resentment of Dany, and based on her disappointment over Viserys, should end up pursuing Aegon to make a marriage alliance. Will Elia Sand pose a problem here though? Arianne calls her half a child, but she's 14 - the same age Arianne lost her virginity.

I wonder about Elia. I like her character, but a headstrong, impulsive 14-year-old on a delicate diplomatic mission spells "trouble" for me. I worry that she will do something foolish that will be problematic for Arianne and Doran. (After all, the past books in the series are littered with Dumb Teenage Mistakes gone wrong.)

I also thought about Petyr and those tapestries he was having Cersei send. Are they Targaryen tapestries? Does he think Aegon is the real deal, or is he waiting until Dany shows up with a dragon or three because the dragon will prove beyond a doubt that she is indeed who she says she is? I hope that if Petyr allies with a Targ it will be Dany, because I'd rather see a Dany/Sansa friendship than the inevitable result of Petyr siding with Aegon: "Hey there King, I have a pretty girl for you to marry!" or, worse, "Hey, King, how would you like my bastard daughter as your mistress?" :ack: Now I believe that 1) Petyr wants Sansa for himself and all these proposed matches are him laying on the BS and 2) Aegon, fake or not, will give zero fucks about Winterfell and the North for now because he wants the Iron Throne, and Sansa will know it and not buy into the "The King will help you take back the north, sweetling!" BS that Petyr will spew.

OTOH Dany is a conqueror by nature, and she has a dragon, and might be very happy to win the North back for Rickon and Sansa on condition that they bend the knee - a good bargain, all things considered.

Just look at this thread - spoiler tags everywhere.... can you guys imagine if we had gotten a Sansa chapter? :lol:

If it HAD been a Sansa chapter, the posts (and the squee) would be flowing in so thick and fast it would be hard to keep up! I would really love to get a sample Sansa chapter at some point, but I think GRRM has something interesting and unexpected planned for her in TWOW - her last chapter in AFFC ended on a cliffie and she was absent from ADWD. Still, a sample Sansa chapter would be like a nameday gift for us. :) As it is, this Arianne chapter has given us a lot to think about and discuss.

[Kittykatknits]

Indeed I can, although if we had, I probably would not have had any sleep since for two days and we would be at least 2 threads ahead of where we are now. :)

Ha Ha yeah me too. It's a good thing for my marriage that we didn't get a Sansa chapter :)

I wonder about Elia. I like her character, but a headstrong, impulsive 14-year-old on a delicate diplomatic mission spells "trouble" for me. I worry that she will do something foolish that will be problematic for Arianne and Doran. (After all, the past books in the series are littered with Dumb Teenage Mistakes gone wrong.)

I also thought about Petyr and those tapestries he was having Cersei send. Are they Targaryen tapestries? Does he think Aegon is the real deal, or is he waiting until Dany shows up with a dragon or three because the dragon will prove beyond a doubt that she is indeed who she says she is? I hope that if Petyr allies with a Targ it will be Dany, because I'd rather see a Dany/Sansa friendship than the inevitable result of Petyr siding with Aegon: "Hey there King, I have a pretty girl for you to marry!" or, worse, "Hey, King, how would you like my bastard daughter as your mistress?" :ack: Now I believe that 1) Petyr wants Sansa for himself and all these proposed matches are him laying on the BS and 2) Aegon, fake or not, will give zero fucks about Winterfell and the North for now because he wants the Iron Throne, and Sansa will know it and not buy into the "The King will help you take back the north, sweetling!" BS that Petyr will spew.

OTOH Dany is a conqueror by nature, and she has a dragon, and might be very happy to win the North back for Rickon and Sansa on condition that they bend the knee - a good bargain, all things considered.

If it HAD been a Sansa chapter, the posts (and the squee) would be flowing in so thick and fast it would be hard to keep up! I would really love to get a sample Sansa chapter at some point, but I think GRRM has something interesting and unexpected planned for her in TWOW - her last chapter in AFFC ended on a cliffie and she was absent from ADWD. Still, a sample Sansa chapter would be like a nameday gift for us. :) As it is, this Arianne chapter has given us a lot to think about and discuss.

It's a good thing for my marriage, my daughter getting to school on time this morning, dinner getting made last night, the dogs being fed, and my ability to at least get some sleep that we didn't get a Sansa chapter. I'd have read it a couple dozen times by now.

Also, I have a strong suspicion that we are not going to get a POV of any Starks or Dany until the actual book is released. The chapters we are getting don't reveal much (comparatively speaking) and can be expected. We know there is going to be a battle in Mereen and WF and we know Aegon is making progress in the Stormlands. So, he whets our appetite while holding the really important stuff back. At least that is my guess.

I do think the story is ultimately about the Starks and he's setting them up for some really big stuff, no way he wants to give us that to much. So, we get hints like the held back Sansa chapter kicking off a new plotline and the upcoming she-wolves novella. He gives us to much with them and he is giving away his endgame.

And no way will we get a POV with Jon or Dany as those two are probably the two biggest cliffhangers in the series right now.

[Elba the Intoner]

Yeah I totally agree that we are not likely to see any Stark related chapters or Dany. Sigh, there goes my hope for a Davos gift chapter. You know what other ones would also be awesome? A Jaime or Brienne gift POV!! That's where I'm putting my bet that Sandor will pop up again. But, sadly, given that Jaime also ended on a cliffhanger I'm betting we won't see anything from him either. I'm really stoked for the She Wolves of Winterfell story though!

[Lyanna Stark]

Some thoughts on the Arianne chapter that concern Sansa as well:

I really liked how it's shown clearly here with Arianne that character development is gradual. Before, we've seen Arianne be far more hot headed and think that her reasoning is automatically right. She's been using seduction to get her way in a rather Cersei-like way.

Here though, we see her first considering seducing Jon Connington, as she would have before, but once she learns that Jon Conn "chafed" at serving such a Lord as Robert Baratheon, with his whoring and drinking, and that he had no known lovers or paramours, she changes her mind, and thinks that seduction is not going to work. Instead, she realises she will be left with her wits alone, and wonders how her words will work on a man such as Jon Connington. This shows that she is more careful, and although her first thought is to use the same old route, she reconsiders. Like Sansa, her development is gradual, and she is gradually learning, although I agree with previous posters who think Sansa is further along in the Game of Thrones curriculum.

We also see her regretting how she used Arys Oakheart and the impact her scheming had on her friends. And even though she is projecting her own feelings wrt Quentyn onto Daenerys, the chapter ends before we know how she took Daemon Sand's last words of hoping that Daenerys isn't mad like the Mad King. Did she agree with him? Did she assume Dany must surely be mad? She doesn't seem to be really sure of anything, which is a change from her earlier chapters. Even if she gets it wrong, she still reasons more carefully, and she questions things like Aegon being legitimate, Jon Conn being legitimate, why Dany killed her brother etc.

I can't really judge her for not spending an entire night reading books on Targaryens in Dorne, although she really should consider doing so. The offered and rejected books, and her losses at Cyvasse seems to be foreshadowing on how betting everything on the dragons is a loss. Ah well, hopefully it won't mean the end for Arianne, I rather like her. :)

[brashcandy]

Ha Ha yeah me too. It's a good thing for my marriage that we didn't get a Sansa chapter :)

Your marriage, my sanity. The things we do give for love. :)

---

So we noted Sweetrobin for consideration yesterday as a male character who might ultimately contribute to progress for women in Westeros. As greensleeves noted, he's almost exclusively been exposed to female influences, and has formed a strong attachment to Sansa. If Lysa had been alive, she would have undoubtedly raised him as a typical patriarchal male, expecting his wife to be subservient and dutiful, as she warned Sansa in ASOS with the talk of the "dwarf's leavings". Instead, Sansa now has an opportunity to provide some corrective teachings, and it's interesting that besides Sansa, the other woman who has a good handle on SR is Myranda Royce. Both are capable of using flattery and other incentives to get SR to behave, and for Sansa there's no real danger of her being taken advantage of, as might be the case if she tried this on an older, more knowledgeable man. In that final chapter of AFFC, Sansa is kissed by two characters: Sweetrobin and Littlefinger. The first kiss she's clearly able to recognize as childish and innocent, and proceeds to indulge in her own thoughts of another kiss from Sandor. However, LF's kisses are of a different nature, and instead of the slight frustration we saw with SR, there's the awareness of a deeper discomfort evidenced by her blush. I think it's fairly certain that Sansa has to attempt to save SR's life in TWOW, and that most of her efforts will be spent in securing some safety for him, rather than engaging HtH's attentions.

[brashcandy]

And while we're discussing Sweetrobin, why not make it a full focus on men in the Vale? The main categories for me would be:

Predatory pricks pissants:

Littlefinger

Lyn Corbray

Harry the Heir?

Mad Mouse

Potential protectors

The Blackfish (if he shows up)

Bronze Yohn

Harry the Heir?

Lothor Brune?

Possible players

Nestor Royce

Mychel Redfort

Sweetrobin

Aegon??

I think the Blackfish would make an interesting study, considering his own rejection of a conventional life.

Feel free to reorganize or add to the list.

[Sam with Hooters]

img1406 wrote:

If they do meet again I suspect that Sansa will be strong enough to reject Tyrion properly.

More interesting, by far, if she *doesn't.* Suppose Tyrion attains a position of power (say, as one of the three heads of the dragon) and Sansa, now a skilled player of the game of thrones -- and determined to win -- decides to let their marriage stand. (After all, she consented, and they WERE married in front of witnesses).

At this point GRRM would no doubt throw in a plot twist:

Tysha [kicking the door down]: Hands off MY HUSBAND, you hussy!

Turns out Tywin lied about having T & T's marriage annulled. There wouldn't've been legitimate grounds for an annullment, provided 1. the girl had already flowered; and 2. marrage laws of the Seven are mostly the same as medieval English ones.

GRRM loves to throw plot-rocks at his character-beehives.

[Blood of the Trout]

More interesting, by far, if she *doesn't.* Suppose Tyrion attains a position of power (say, as one of the three heads of the dragon) and Sansa, now a skilled player of the game of thrones -- and determined to win -- decides to let their marriage stand. (After all, she consented, and they WERE married in front of witnesses).

I'm sure Sansa will never use her forced marriage to Tyrion as a tool to win the game. She would accomplish far more by befriending Daenerys rather than staying married to a Lannister. Time to go back to lurking.

EDIT because I'm terrible speller

[Raksha the Demon]

I'm sure Sansa will never use her forced marriage to Tyrion as a tool to win the game. She would accomplish far more by befriending Daenerys rather than staying married to a Lannister. Time to go back to lurking.

EDIT because I'm terrible speller

Many readers assume that Sansa and Dany could become friends. I personally fear that Daenerys will be far more inclined to remove House Stark (what's left of it) completely from power, declare it extinct if she does become queen of Westeros; as punishment for Ned's having been one of the 'Usurper's hounds', as she believes. Daenerys has been very resistant to Barristan's attempts to tell her the truth about Aerys' having been a bad king and Ned's having been an honorable man. I don't think Daenerys would be so cruel as to order Rickon killed for his father's 'crimes', if Rickon resurfaces, but I'm not sure that Dany would ever allow Sansa any access to power, or her friendship - unless Tyrion has become important to Dany and Tyrion wants to either keep Sansa as his wife or make amends to her.

Of course, if Dany meets Jon first, before solidifying her power in Westeros, and they fall in love, and Jon can get her to see the Stark side of the equation, or at least agree to let House Stark retake Winterfell with Rickon and Sansa; then Sansa may get to become Dany's BFF; but since GRRM is writing the saga, I doubt things will be so simple.

[brashcandy]

I've never understood this view that Dany will want to wipe out House Stark and any remaining remnants of the usurper's dogs. Let us not forget that the very Tyrion is the brother of the man who killed her father and a principal member of the family who presented the bodies of her niece and nephew to Robert Baratheon. If Dany if so irrational to pursue justice against Ned's children, why wouldn't she just chop Tyrion's head off at first chance? Further, recall that this is someone who refused to even exact punishment on the hostages she took in Meereen.

And if we've all noted Sansa's skills in diplomacy - even the mighty Tyrion himself - and her increasing grasp of the game, I don't see why it is so far-fetched to entertain the idea of her forging an alliance with Daenerys. The "BFF" theory is simply a pleasant offshoot of this political possibility, but god forbid two women in power should actually get along! Even the foreshadowing - SR's love of the story of the winged knight, and Sansa's associations with flying, might point to a future dragon connection. There's also theories on the Vale's sky cells serving as dragon nests etc. Again, we're all speculating here, and I'm open to valid points which question this theory, but so far what I've seen hasn't amount to such.

[Lyanna Stark]

It seems most people who object to Dany and Sansa being friends is that it would be "cliche" same as any romance would be "cliche". (Obviously these people normally only read avant garde modernist literature).