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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVII

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Ahhh is that how he got Anya Waynwood to agree! I knew Harry was a ward, so presumably he doesn't have any other family? But that still doesn't quite explain why the other Lords Declarant are ok with their future Lady of the Eeire being a bastard, especially a bastard of a very low down noble (in their opinion).

I presumed that a fairly substancial number of people knew that LF was well informed, but if not then that makes much more sense!

Harry is indeed an orphan of the Hardyng family, but is related to both the Waynwoods and the Arryns. Here is his family tree.

The Lords Declarant complained about LF, but he had already bought Lyn Corbray to pretend that he hated LF and when Lyn drew his sword at the parlay, LF had them and gained a year in which to manipulate them. He already had Lyn Corbray and negotiated the wedding with huge dowry for Lyn's brother Lyonel Corbray with a merchant's daughter. The Lords Declarant were supposed to shun the wedding, but Lord Belmore, Anya Waynwood and the Knight of ninestars showed up anyway, together with Lords Waxley, Grafton and Lynderley.

Littlefinger also, as stated :) bought the Waynwood debt and thusly bought off the Waynwoods to his side. I am less sure how he did with Belmore and the Knight of Ninestars, but it's clear from the showing up at Lyonel Corbray's wedding that LF has them in the bag.

Allegedly, according to LF, Lord Hunter's sons will murder their father and begin infighting with each other about inheritance, so it's safe to say LF has his fingers in that pie too, meaning that whomever survives to become Lord Hunter, he has control over. LF already controls Lord Nestor Royce of the lesser Royce branch through granting Nestor permanent lordship over the Gates of the Moon.

The only Vale lord that is against LF is Bronze Yohn Royce, and he is virtually isolated now. Hence the only one who will really object to a Harry/Alayne Stone wedding is probably Bronze Yohn, and he is one lonely voice in a sea of bought off LF cronies.

As a sidenote, we know that Bronze Yohn was friends with Eddard Stark, and in his looks and manners he is the most "northern" of the Vale lords (First Men blood, most likely). Sansa already considered confessing who she was to Bronze Yohn, but decided against it. It makes for an interesting power dynamic since Sansa may be able to somehow use Bronze Yohn Royce as someone allied with House Stark against LF, but as of AFFC, Sansa does not think she can rely or trust on Bronze Yohn.

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Interesting that its Bronze Royce that she considers confessing to (I'm on aFFC now in my re-read so I'll have to keep an eye out for this), and I agree with you that maybe she uses him against LF. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next book Sansa starts doing a LF (though with more compassion) and starting to have her own men and own plots. Maybe she'll even use Harry as a way of escaping LF (with or without Sweetrobin, though that then would question whether LF has Harry onside to kill SR so he can become Lord of the Vale).

I also just had the thought of the parrallel between Sansa and Arya wanting to reveal themselves and both decide against it, for reasons of trust. We know that it didn't work well for Arya so maybe if Sansa does reveal herself then it might go the opposite way. But it does make me think that the Stark sisters are actually far more alike than they think they are.

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As a sidenote, we know that Bronze Yohn was friends with Eddard Stark, and in his looks and manners he is the most "northern" of the Vale lords (First Men blood, most likely). Sansa already considered confessing who she was to Bronze Yohn, but decided against it. It makes for an interesting power dynamic since Sansa may be able to somehow use Bronze Yohn Royce as someone allied with House Stark against LF, but as of AFFC, Sansa does not think she can rely or trust on Bronze Yohn.

I wonder if the runes on Bronze Yohn's armour will prove significant to the theory of Sansa's increasing connection with the old gods/undergoing some kind of death/resurrection. She's already vetoed the idea of reaching out to him for "traditional" assistance, and whilst it's very possible that she may rethink that decision, perhaps the strength of House Royce is meant to be of a more mystical import. We know that she also had a crush on Bronze Yohn's son, Waymar, who entered the Night's Watch.

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Good points about Bronze Yohn. I also still maintain that his description seems very similar to Sandor's and he could be an older high born version of Sandor (who also has the Northern looks). I don't think that was coincidence.

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Good points about Bronze Yohn. I also still maintain that his description seems very similar to Sandor's and he could be an older high born version of Sandor (who also has the Northern looks). I don't think that was coincidence.

So we're going to have another icky infatuation coming along for Sansa then.

Though I think her obsession with the hound has been more to do with the fact he is the only person to truely try and save her, for her and not her claim, so maybe Bronze Yohn has evoked the same kind of feelings as Sandor, so she feels that he is the one to save her this time. Little does she realise she is probably the best person to save herself. Sansa seems to underestimate herself even more than other people underestimate her.

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Good points about Bronze Yohn. I also still maintain that his description seems very similar to Sandor's and he could be an older high born version of Sandor (who also has the Northern looks). I don't think that was coincidence.

So Sansa has two Sandor like protectors available to her in Bronze Yohn and Lothor Brune? Are we just waiting for the real man to show up? :) Perhaps a hint that these will become genuine allies.

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The Sansa/Tyrion reunion talk got me thinking. One of the notable characteristics of Sansa is that she doesn't hold grudges. Even back in GoT when Trant(?) was beating her she realizes that he didn't hate her he just didn't care. An Arya in the same position would more than likely add him to her list. While Sansa has little reason to bear any affection for Tyrion, I also don't think she bears him any great animosity either. (Her reflecting on him as "kind?" comes to mind.)

I'm thinking about this in the context of an eventual peace in Westeros. There are certain characters that will probably never be able to reconcile and if those characters are the rulers of particular kingdoms there can be no peace. Sansa has a connection with every faction but Dorne and the Stormlands. She's of the North and the Riverlands, grew up with Theon, is living in the Vale, has a rapport with the women of Highgarden, and certainly knows the Lannisters. Arya is not going to be the one to make peace. Jon only has a relationship with the North and Stannis. Sansa is probably the one who will have to make a peace at the end of all this.

If Tyrion ends up ruling Casterly Rock, is the relationship between Sansa and Tyrion such that there can be a peace between the Lannisters and the Starks? I don't think there can be with a Cersei and maybe not even a reformed Jaime with him having pushed Bran. Sansa is the only living Stark with any real connections or ties beyond the North. Unless the North is going to tear down the Wall and rebuild it on the Neck someone needs to make a peace with the South. Is Sansa destined to be the peacemaker? If she is, can we assume that she'll intersect with the Dornish as the one group she doesn't have any real relationship with yet? (Jon covers the Stormlands with Stannis and gods know who the heck gets the place if Stannis dies.)

@Brash -- those runes stand out as a big something. MMD's dagger had runes, the horn Mance found and the dragon horn have runes/glyphs. No specific theories other than they connote magic but I'd be surprised if they don't come to matter.

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Meh. In the spirit of Zigi Freud I feel the need to say that sometimes a rune is just a rune.

Against a Sansa Tyrion reunion stand all their common chapters. She is very aware of him as Lannister and therefore an enemy and still worse "They have made me a Lannister, Sansa thought bitterly." (Sansa IV ASOS)

There is quite a burden of enmity for Sansa to overcome, while Tyrion has to deal with, well all the stuff Ragnorak that you among others have been pointing out about his divided, troubled personality in our reread thread.

Obviously GRRM makes all the decisions here, but I feel there would have to be quite a bit of writing and effort put in to make that believable unless the two are eager later in the series for an ongoing loveless, political union - not an impossibility since we've been promised a bittersweet ending - but that's not a possibility I want to contemplate too much at this stage!

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I very much doubt that Tyrion and Sansa will end up together at all, neither of them would choose it and they both know that the other wouldn't want it.

Plus they each have their own claim to a castle to worry about, and thats ignoring the ongoing threat of death.

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So we're going to have another icky infatuation coming along for Sansa then.

Though I think her obsession with the hound has been more to do with the fact he is the only person to truely try and save her, for her and not her claim, so maybe Bronze Yohn has evoked the same kind of feelings as Sandor, so she feels that he is the one to save her this time. Little does she realise she is probably the best person to save herself. Sansa seems to underestimate herself even more than other people underestimate her.

No I don't think Sansa is going to develop some weird infatuation with BY. I mentioned his similarities to Sandor because I think it is more as Brashcandy said, that it's a hint that he will become an ally. I agree that Sansa needs to be the one to save herself, but making alliances and getting help from others can be very helpful when trying to save yourself or your family.

The Sansa/Tyrion reunion talk got me thinking. One of the notable characteristics of Sansa is that she doesn't hold grudges. Even back in GoT when Trant(?) was beating her she realizes that he didn't hate her he just didn't care. An Arya in the same position would more than likely add him to her list. While Sansa has little reason to bear any affection for Tyrion, I also don't think she bears him any great animosity either. (Her reflecting on him as "kind?" comes to mind.)

I'm thinking about this in the context of an eventual peace in Westeros. There are certain characters that will probably never be able to reconcile and if those characters are the rulers of particular kingdoms there can be no peace. Sansa has a connection with every faction but Dorne and the Stormlands. She's of the North and the Riverlands, grew up with Theon, is living in the Vale, has a rapport with the women of Highgarden, and certainly knows the Lannisters. Arya is not going to be the one to make peace. Jon only has a relationship with the North and Stannis. Sansa is probably the one who will have to make a peace at the end of all this.

If Tyrion ends up ruling Casterly Rock, is the relationship between Sansa and Tyrion such that there can be a peace between the Lannisters and the Starks? I don't think there can be with a Cersei and maybe not even a reformed Jaime with him having pushed Bran. Sansa is the only living Stark with any real connections or ties beyond the North. Unless the North is going to tear down the Wall and rebuild it on the Neck someone needs to make a peace with the South. Is Sansa destined to be the peacemaker? If she is, can we assume that she'll intersect with the Dornish as the one group she doesn't have any real relationship with yet? (Jon covers the Stormlands with Stannis and gods know who the heck gets the place if Stannis dies.)

@Brash -- those runes stand out as a big something. MMD's dagger had runes, the horn Mance found and the dragon horn have runes/glyphs. No specific theories other than they connote magic but I'd be surprised if they don't come to matter.

Since I first finished the books I have thought that the Sansa-Tyrion marriage will be relevant and not just as protection that Sansa can use right now to keep from getting married again. I think they could make an effective alliance as well since as you said Sansa recognizes that Tyrion was kind to her, and also I keep thinking about how Tyrion has as much reason to hate Littlefinger as Sansa does. He nearly lost his life twice because of him. Finally, Sansa and Tyrion are connected through Jon as well. Jon liked Tyrion and they became friends. I don't think they would ever "fall in love" (bleh!) as it was painfully obvious from their time together that they were miserable, but I don't think an alliance of some kind between them can be ruled out.

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In addition to the other points brought up about Bronze Yohn: He not only knew Eddard, he knew Catelyn - Sansa remembers him visiting Winterfell and talking with her mother. Sansa is noted to look like Catelyn, not only with the auburn hair, but the blue eyes and facial resemblance. As I've pointed out before, just dying one's hair is not going to change one's general appearance all that much. I think Bronze Yohn is wondering why "Alayne Stone" looks a lot like Catelyn Tully. And the House Royce motto is "We Remember."

Also agreeing that "Alayne" might meet with a cool reception amongst the other young women of the Vale. Even leaving aside whether Mychel Redfort still pines for Mya Stone, Harry the Heir is a very eligible bachelor and I wouldn't be surprised if "Alayne" will have a lot of resentment and jealousy thrown at her for snagging that eligible bachelor over other, more worthy girls, and for being more beautiful than any of them. Randa's an unknown quantity at this point, whether she's really being friendly to "Alayne" or just pumping her for information about LF is hard to say. I thought it was rather weird that she made a remark about the size of Sansa's breasts and whether she'd produce a lot of milk (!) right out of the blue. That's not ordinary getting-to-know-you conversation.

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No I don't think Sansa is going to develop some weird infatuation with BY. I mentioned his similarities to Sandor because I think it is more as Brashcandy said, that it's a hint that he will become an ally. I agree that Sansa needs to be the one to save herself, but making alliances and getting help from others can be very helpful when trying to save yourself or your family. Since I first finished the books I have thought that the Sansa-Tyrion marriage will be relevant and not just as protection that Sansa can use right now to keep from getting married again. I think they could make an effective alliance as well since as you said Sansa recognizes that Tyrion was kind to her, and also I keep thinking about how Tyrion has as much reason to hate Littlefinger as Sansa does. He nearly lost his life twice because of him. Finally, Sansa and Tyrion are connected through Jon as well. Jon liked Tyrion and they became friends. I don't think they would ever "fall in love" (bleh!) as it was painfully obvious from their time together that they were miserable, but I don't think an alliance of some kind between them can be ruled out.

First point:

Ok I see where you are coming from, these men could be the first in our new army of people sworn to Sansa, everyone seems to like her so we can assume that she is fairly charismatic. This could actually mark the start of her transition to player, very subtly of course, and I'm not even sure she'll realise that the transition is happening.

Second point:

I can see an alliance, but if that happens I doubt their marriage will still be valid, it will be more political, and actually by that point I think Sansa will at least be Tyrion's match, if not better, at political manouvering. I don't think Tyrion will kill LF, I think that that is definately something for Sansa or unCat to do.

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Meh. In the spirit of Zigi Freud I feel the need to say that sometimes a rune is just a rune.

Against a Sansa Tyrion reunion stand all their common chapters. She is very aware of him as Lannister and therefore an enemy and still worse "They have made me a Lannister, Sansa thought bitterly." (Sansa IV ASOS)

There is quite a burden of enmity for Sansa to overcome, while Tyrion has to deal with, well all the stuff Ragnorak that you among others have been pointing out about his divided, troubled personality in our reread thread.

Obviously GRRM makes all the decisions here, but I feel there would have to be quite a bit of writing and effort put in to make that believable unless the two are eager later in the series for an ongoing loveless, political union - not an impossibility since we've been promised a bittersweet ending - but that's not a possibility I want to contemplate too much at this stage!

I never meant to imply peacemaker through continued marriage to Tyrion. I just meant that a Sansa as a key political power in the North could make a peace with a Tyrion as lord of the Rock without feeling that the demands of justice mandate he gets beheaded like she might feel if Cersei held the title.

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In addition to the other points brought up about Bronze Yohn: He not only knew Eddard, he knew Catelyn - Sansa remembers him visiting Winterfell and talking with her mother. Sansa is noted to look like Catelyn, not only with the auburn hair, but the blue eyes and facial resemblance. As I've pointed out before, just dying one's hair is not going to change one's general appearance all that much. I think Bronze Yohn is wondering why "Alayne Stone" looks a lot like Catelyn Tully. And the House Royce motto is "We Remember."

Also agreeing that "Alayne" might meet with a cool reception amongst the other young women of the Vale. Even leaving aside whether Mychel Redfort still pines for Mya Stone, Harry the Heir is a very eligible bachelor and I wouldn't be surprised if "Alayne" will have a lot of resentment and jealousy thrown at her for snagging that eligible bachelor over other, more worthy girls, and for being more beautiful than any of them. Randa's an unknown quantity at this point, whether she's really being friendly to "Alayne" or just pumping her for information about LF is hard to say. I thought it was rather weird that she made a remark about the size of Sansa's breasts and whether she'd produce a lot of milk (!) right out of the blue. That's not ordinary getting-to-know-you conversation.

Maybe she has suspicions about who Sansa really is and the comment about milk and breasts is to see whether or not she is pregnant with Tyrion's child? I find it difficult to believe that the Vale Lords are completely ignorant, the Lady of the Vale was a Tully for 17 years, there's going to be some resemblance.

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Love Makes the World (of ASOIAF) Go Round

Sometimes maligned or overlooked is just how much relationships and love drive the different characters. In a series filled with the game, power plays and manipulation, a mother’s love for her children or a woman’s pride in her culture just doesn’t seem quite so exciting. Yet, love is a powerful thing and makes the world in ASOIAF go round. So what does love look like in ASOIAF?

Romantic Love

I will only briefly talk about romantic love here as much of the last theme looked in to this. Our last discussion of marriage had quite a bit of discussion on how romantic love between two individuals is portrayed within ASOIAF. It seems like the most developed and healthy relationship on-screen is between Ned and Catelyn but we know that there are others, such as Jon and Ygritte and Dany and Drogo. Milady of York put together several attributes that describe the secret to a long-lasting relationship and I’d say they reflect quite well what we see in the series.

On the flipside, there are some relationships that don’t seem to end well. Perhaps the most notorious within the series is Jaime and Cersei, incestuous twins who engage in a years-long secret love affair. They’ve been lovers since CR and all through Cersei’s marriage to Robert, with a pause in between during which Cersei had planned to remain faithful to Robert. However, their relationship does continue and Jaime eventually fathers all three of her children. Superficially, these two seem like the perfect great, doomed love affair. But, as we learn more about the characters and the past, I’d say that the relationship was unhealthy for both of them. Jaime idealized Cersei and day dreamed of them running away together.

Sexual love

Later, I’ll be talking about sexuality and the erotic but I did want to bring this up as I feel that female sexual love is not always given credibility or seen as entirely legitimate. There are numerous examples of sexual attraction and sexual desire shown by women throughout the series. Dany has a strong physical attraction for Daario and eventually decides to enter in to a sexual relationship with him. I think Dany finds her time with Daario to ultimately be an empowering and comforting experience. To be honest, the portrayal of Dany’s feelings towards Daario feels a little alien to me at times (maybe I’m just too much of an old, married lady?) but on the whole. I very much appreciate that her feelings are presented as normal, healthy, and legitimate. In Dance, we meet Qarl the Maid, a long-time lover of Asha. In the intent of full disclosure, I should probably admit that I love this relationship as it felt so very healthy compared to much of what else we see in the books. Asha and Qarl have been together for quite some time and engage in a bit of role-playing. Qarl genuinely cares for Asha and has been content as her lover with her having the more dominant and powerful public position.

Finally, I want to bring up Amerei Frey, fondly known as Gatehouse Ami. We meet Ami in Feast when Jaime visits Darry in order to talk with Lancel. While there, we learn of Ami’s past adventures and see her flirting at dinner with Strongboar. She makes no secret of her interest of him which stands out in ASOIAF. During Jaime’s conversation with Lancel we learn two things. First, he has not yet consummated his relationship with his wife and does not seem to care if she spends time with other men. Now, this is due to Lancel’s new-found religious devotion rather than any particular enlightened views he may have towards women and sexuality. But, it’s always stood out to me as I can’t imagine many husbands in Westeros feeling the same way.

Familial Love

In Westeros, families are very political. A love for family is just as much about family pride and advancement as it is the love one may feel for others. Members work together to cement alliances, protect each other, and advance causes. Although we have no Tyrell POV, they have always stood out in this regard. Lancel is a member of the KG, there to help protect Marg’s interests. The QoT plots to give Marg a better, more malleable king. All of them speak affectionately about Willas, a character we have yet to meet.

As to unhealthy family dynamics, I cannot think of any that fit the description better than the Lannisters. The Lannister siblings lost their mother at a young age and I’ve long believe her loss has left a permanent and negative impact on each of them. In Clash, Cersei and Tyrion spend much of the book jockeying for power over each other. Jaime tells Tyrion a lie about his wife, on orders from their father. The relationship between Cersei and Jaime increasingly deteriorates during the latter part of Storm and on in to Feast and Dance. Worse, it seems that Tywin encourages some of this family dynamic- pitting Cersei and Tyrion against each other. They are tools to advance the name of both Tywin and Lannister, nothing more. Their duty is to their House.

Then, we have the Starks, favorites of many fans of the series, including me. Ned and Catelyn genuinely love each other, their children are happy and were raised in a safe, secure environment. The Stark kids find strength in being a Stark with Sansa’s comment that she is stronger within the walls of WF and Arya’s reminder that she is Arya Stark. Their thoughts and memories are all positive and turn in to a well of strength they draw upon through many events in the series. It fascinates me that although Ned has been dead since Game and Catelyn separated from her children for just as long, we still see how much their teachings and values influence their kids. And I can’t leave the topic of familial love between the Starks behind without mentioning a particular paragraph that appears in Jon’s final chapter in Dance. I would guess by now that everyone knows what I am referring to; it’s a very emotional paragraph, filled with Jon’s memories of his siblings. He thinks of Robb with the snowflakes in his hair and Sansa brushing Lady. I strongly suspect I am not the only one that felt a chill and teared up when reading this. To be frank, I could talk for paragraphs of the Starks and their love for each other, but I don’t think I could ever do the topic justice when compared to that single passage.

Other examples of familial love occur with Marg and her cousins and Arianne with the Sand Snakes. In both cases, they are cousins rather than siblings. Yet, they provide each other with companionship and support. I’d say both examples show that extended family is also important within Westeros families.

Finally, if we are talking about familial love, I can’t leave the topic behind without mentioning mothers. Martin has said before that they are missing from fantasy and felt it was important to bring a mother to the series, hence Catelyn. She appears from the very beginning of Game and remains a POV through the third book in the series. I know Catelyn is a controversial character on this board but I think there is little doubt on her love for her children. It fascinates me that Catelyn is very much a woman of her times yet as the books progress; it is her thoughts of family and children that consume her. It’s not politics or the game, rather her love for Ned and fears for her children. Catelyn moves from thinking of her family’s political future to committing treason on the possibility, however slim, that it will free her daughters. Catelyn has lived her life fulfilling her role as a Lady Wife and Lady Mother yet the books are filled with hints that she chafes against the restrictions that come with him. She is angry over the idea that her daughters, because they are girls, are worth less than Jaime and refuses the out offered after releasing Jaime.

As a contrast, we have her sister Lysa and her need to protect her son Sweetrobin. As we know, Lysa was pregnant via LF and then had her child forcibly aborted by Hoster Tully, an act which appears to have a permanent emotional and physical impact on Lysa. Lysa essentially had a child taken from her and I do believe this fact, along with LF, influenced her decision not to come to the aid of Hoster and the Riverlands. Later, she kills her husband after learning that her son would be taken from her and fostered elsewhere. I believe that Lysa intensely loved her son and sought to protect him the best way she knew how. Unfortunately, we also see that what were good intentions also led to a negative development on little Robert.

Finally, when it comes to motherhood, I can’t leave the topic behind without mentioning Dany. She lost her son Rhaego yet became a mother to three dragons. Dany nurtured her eggs and then hatched or birthed them in fire. Later, they even suckle at her breasts. It is a unique mother/child relationship and shows the many paths that motherhood can take.

Love of People

This type of love is not talked about much but, nonetheless, is an element within the series. There are many women who feel concern over the people she governs, pride in her culture, and work to provide for those she is responsible for.

I’ll start with Asha, a character who didn’t much impress me when we were first introduced to her in Clash. I started to change my mind during the kingsmoot when Asha presented an alternate future for the Ironborn. She did not advocate future reaving but an approach that would ensure long-term survival of the Iron Islands. Later, we see she commands respect from her men, she listens to them and fights alongside them. I admit that it’s a hope of mine that Asha does one day rule the Iron Islands as I believe she can take them in a new direction, away from reaving and pillaging.

In the same book, we also get a chance to meet Ygritte, a spear wife amongst the wildlings. Ygritte is not a leader of people or a queen but she does typify another form of love for her people. As we see, Ygritte serves as a way for Jon to learn about and understand the wildling culture. It’s through her that Jon gains respect and appreciation for the wildlings and is eventually able to form alliances with many amongst the wildlings. Ygritte is proud to be a part of the free folk and all it represents.

Finally, again, we have Dany. She is a khaleesi and a queen who becomes mother to those she freed. Later in the series, Dany is torn between her desire to return to Westeros and her responsibility to those she has freed in Slaver’s Bay. Ultimately, Dany chooses to accept her responsibility to those she freed and refuses an opportunity by Xaro to leave Mereen. Later, she marries Hizdahr in an effort to bring peace and avoid further bloodshed.

I know that even after all these words I’ve missed countless examples of love within the series. I know that we’ve had many conversations when it comes to Sansa and romantic love. We know she is a Stark and her thoughts reveal intense affection for her family. I’m now wondering if the symbolism and foreshadowing of Sansa and WF/The North/WF will eventually turn in to a love for her people. The idea of relationships and love within ASOIAF has been maligned at times but I think the above shows just how much these two drive plot and motivate characters. Love is a strong motivator and I’d argue will ultimately prove to be stronger than revenge, hate, pride, and other negative emotions that we’ve seen drive some of the worst acts in the series.

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I know that even after all these words I’ve missed countless examples of love within the series. I know that we’ve had many conversations when it comes to Sansa and romantic love. We know she is a Stark and her thoughts reveal intense affection for her family. I’m now wondering if the symbolism and foreshadowing of Sansa and WF/The North/WF will eventually turn in to a love for her people. The idea of relationships and love within ASOIAF has been maligned at times but I think the above shows just how much these two drive plot and motivate characters. Love is a strong motivator and I’d argue will ultimately prove to be stronger than revenge, hate, pride, and other negative emotions that we’ve seen drive some of the worst acts in the series.

I think it is important to add to what you've put that in GoT (or maybe aCoK) Cersei and Sansa are talking and Sansa disagrees with Cersei about having power if you make the people fear you, Sansa disagrees in her head and talks of making the people love her when she is Queen, so as to inspire loyalty.

This is important because it has been demonstrated that the love of the people can benefit a leader, just look at Renly who amassed a massive army, and Ned/Robb who's people are still (albeit secretly) fighting and loyal to them.

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The Sansa/Tyrion reunion talk got me thinking. One of the notable characteristics of Sansa is that she doesn't hold grudges. Even back in GoT when Trant(?) was beating her she realizes that he didn't hate her he just didn't care. An Arya in the same position would more than likely add him to her list. While Sansa has little reason to bear any affection for Tyrion, I also don't think she bears him any great animosity either. (Her reflecting on him as "kind?" comes to mind.)

I'm thinking about this in the context of an eventual peace in Westeros. There are certain characters that will probably never be able to reconcile and if those characters are the rulers of particular kingdoms there can be no peace. Sansa has a connection with every faction but Dorne and the Stormlands. She's of the North and the Riverlands, grew up with Theon, is living in the Vale, has a rapport with the women of Highgarden, and certainly knows the Lannisters. Arya is not going to be the one to make peace. Jon only has a relationship with the North and Stannis. Sansa is probably the one who will have to make a peace at the end of all this.

If Tyrion ends up ruling Casterly Rock, is the relationship between Sansa and Tyrion such that there can be a peace between the Lannisters and the Starks? I don't think there can be with a Cersei and maybe not even a reformed Jaime with him having pushed Bran. Sansa is the only living Stark with any real connections or ties beyond the North. Unless the North is going to tear down the Wall and rebuild it on the Neck someone needs to make a peace with the South. Is Sansa destined to be the peacemaker? If she is, can we assume that she'll intersect with the Dornish as the one group she doesn't have any real relationship with yet? (Jon covers the Stormlands with Stannis and gods know who the heck gets the place if Stannis dies.)

@Brash -- those runes stand out as a big something. MMD's dagger had runes, the horn Mance found and the dragon horn have runes/glyphs. No specific theories other than they connote magic but I'd be surprised if they don't come to matter.

That would be Shireen, and since she seems to have a little crush on Jon that would still work as an in.

Of course, Shireen being about 11 or 12 is probably not going to be in charge right away if Stannis falls anytime soon. That leaves Selyse, Mel, and Davos. Mel still believes in Jon's importance and Selyse trusts Mel. So, the Stormlands/true Baratheon Throne is still open that way. Also assuming Jon is alive/resurrected, he will likely play a part in helping Shireen, Mel, and Selyse get away from Ramsay.

And Davos will soon have a connection to Rickon. Considering he has sons himself, I really see them having a father/son type bond.

So, without further developments the Stormlands/Iron Throne has a strong connection to the Starks. At least in some respect.

Also, remember that GRRM said that at least one of the Great Houses won't make it. So, there may be no peace with House X.

As for Dorne, I suspecting Arya to make some Dornish connection. Or Doran to lead House Martell to its destruction.

Meh. In the spirit of Zigi Freud I feel the need to say that sometimes a rune is just a rune.

Against a Sansa Tyrion reunion stand all their common chapters. She is very aware of him as Lannister and therefore an enemy and still worse "They have made me a Lannister, Sansa thought bitterly." (Sansa IV ASOS)

There is quite a burden of enmity for Sansa to overcome, while Tyrion has to deal with, well all the stuff Ragnorak that you among others have been pointing out about his divided, troubled personality in our reread thread.

Obviously GRRM makes all the decisions here, but I feel there would have to be quite a bit of writing and effort put in to make that believable unless the two are eager later in the series for an ongoing loveless, political union - not an impossibility since we've been promised a bittersweet ending - but that's not a possibility I want to contemplate too much at this stage!

I like to think that the ending will have some good, some bad, and some bittersweet. In this case, I hope it is good.

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I never meant to imply peacemaker through continued marriage to Tyrion. I just meant that a Sansa as a key political power in the North could make a peace with a Tyrion as lord of the Rock without feeling that the demands of justice mandate he gets beheaded like she might feel if Cersei held the title.

Sansa and Tyrion could, in a few years, negotiate a peace between what's left of their families, if Tyrion takes and holds Casterly Rock as Lord Lannister. He is Tywin's only eligible son; and should inherit; that is, if the Cersei/Mace Tyrell regime loses power over the Iron Throne. I'm thinking a few years down the road, Aegon or Dany or Stannis on the Iron Throne. Tyrion as of ADWD is positioned to retake Casterly Rock, though whether he can hold it depends on how many other Lannisters are left alive and if they want to take it from him. If Tyrion becomes and remains Lord Lannister of Casterly Rock and has held onto some wealth, he could offer Sansa some Lannister gold as reparations for the harm that his family has done to the Starks, which would help rebuild Winterfell, and Sansa (perhaps as regent for Rickon) could broker a peace. The annulment of their marriage could be part of that process; unless Sansa and Tyrion both decide that a marriage, while loveless, could offer political benefits - I hope not, but it's all up to GRRM.

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Sansa and Tyrion could, in a few years, negotiate a peace between what's left of their families, if Tyrion takes and holds Casterly Rock as Lord Lannister. He is Tywin's only eligible son; and should inherit; that is, if the Cersei/Mace Tyrell regime loses power over the Iron Throne. I'm thinking a few years down the road, Aegon or Dany or Stannis on the Iron Throne. Tyrion as of ADWD is positioned to retake Casterly Rock, though whether he can hold it depends on how many other Lannisters are left alive and if they want to take it from him. If Tyrion becomes and remains Lord Lannister of Casterly Rock and has held onto some wealth, he could offer Sansa some Lannister gold as reparations for the harm that his family has done to the Starks, which would help rebuild Winterfell, and Sansa (perhaps as regent for Rickon) could broker a peace. The annulment of their marriage could be part of that process; unless Sansa and Tyrion both decide that a marriage, while loveless, could offer political benefits - I hope not, but it's all up to GRRM.

1. If tyrion gets CR, he signed away all its wealth to the soldiers. Now I think those soldiers (since they are tyrions main power, and they are the ones with the sword, remember Varys, it is the soldier with the sword who matters, tyrion bought them with money, and a Lannister always pays his debt!), will take the money, if tyrion does not give them, tyrion dies and CR will belong to someone. Which means, tyrion will have no money, so he can't give much compensation to anyone, he pretty much will be a beggar.

Which leaves the only way he can ever make up somehow is to offer an annulment.

2. Everyone thinks tyrion gets the rock and ends up ruling for long. I don'T think so.

I think the Lannisters are over, there will be karma for the Rains of Castamere and for the Red Wedding. I think Stoneheart will start by killing a bunch of them at a comming wedding in Riverrun.

Not to mention when tyrion was born people were saying it is the sign of the doom and end of the Lannister house. A lot of people think it was just mean gossips (including tyrion), but what if that is actually a prophecy (I actually starting to believe so)? After all tyrion killed tywin, and now at the end of ADwD he is planning to go to war against his very family, and even if he wins he signed away all their wealth, there would be nothing that remains. And don'T forget the he is tywins son comparissions. Not to mention he had that dream where tywin was dragging him, and I think his fathers arms were stone? tyrion might actually carries greystone, we know from the septa, that it can surface any moment. He got a lot of treatment, while Connington didn't. He might destroy his house in the wa, and quickly after that dies from greyscale. The end.

Anyway I don't necesserly think tyrion will actually survive till the end, he might but not neccesserily. If however he is then he will need the peace more than the Starks, whcih means he is the one who has to try make up for the loss.

Well but the marriage were to stay and Sansa would remain Lady Lannister (Gods no....), at least she can entertain herself with her fanfics:

“Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had. He’d come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood.
He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song.”

“As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.”

“‘You do know what is going on in a marriage bed, I hope?’ She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he’d kissed her, and gave a nod.”

I say if nothing else Sansa will be the first female romance novellist in Westeros under the penname Alayne Stone.

Something else, Catelyn, Sansa, Arya:

I am sure a lot of people noticed, but both of the girls choose an alias based on their mothers name. They do this after Cat died at the Red Wedding.

Sansa:

“It is not safe to be a Stark just now. So we shall tell Lysa’s people that you are my natural daughter.”

”Natural?” Sansa was aghast. “You mean, a bastard?”

“Well, you can hardly be my trueborn daughter. I’ve never taken a wife, that’s well known. What should you be called?”

“I… I could call myself after my mother…”

“Catelyn? A bit too obvious…”

Arya:

“You are marked by the way you speak, so you must be some girl of Westeros… but a different girl, I think.”

She bit her lip. “Could I be Cat?”

“Cat.” He considered. “Yes. Braavos is full of cats.”

Now, weep :crying: :crying: :crying:

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