From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVII

[Le Cygne]

Oh, thought of one more, when Sansa compares another guy to Sandor, he is "almost as tall, though not so heavily muscled".

He drops all of these hints throughout her POVs to let us know she's thinking of him this way.

More below

[brashcandy]

The further her rejection of the Westerosi notion of what a proper lady should behave like (dutiful to whichever husband is thrust upon her), the more she develops the dreams too, and as her thoughts and wishes lean more towards having power over her own life and fate, we also see the dreams and fantasies develop alongside those wishes. We know she hated Joffrey, she rejected Tyrion and Sweetrobin, but what seems to happen when Sansa gets a choice is that it's either Loras Tyrell that gets inserted, but then even Loras gets substituted in AFFC. And all the substitutions, additions and extra flourishes Sansa applies she does with dreams and fantasies concerning Sandor. Nobody else gets that treatment.

Yup; the fact that she's now Alayne Stone is what supposedly removes Loras Tyrell from a being an eligible fantasy object, but this doesn't really add up when you consider that her unkiss memory was created when she's Sansa Stark, and that she goes on to put the memory aside, along with Sansa Stark's identity - "that day was done". So not only does Sandor get all the additional flourishes, but he's also quite adaptable/applicable to whatever the current identification is, unlike Loras Tyrell and co. I think by this point Sansa is over Loras in a much more significant way than social class would account for :)

[Lummel]

Oh I know what you know, Septon Meribald. You want everyone to wear hair shirts and preach peace and faith in the Riverlands, while prancing over the meadows. Alternatively, to consider Tywin's "harsh lessons". ;)

You say that as if it is something wrong :laugh:

(Consider this in the meantime: rejection of learnt behaviour, Sansa vs Tyrion, where Tyrion rejects Tywin's "harsh lessons" when he refuses to rape a second wife, and Sansa manages to reject Septa Mordane's "all men are beautiful". Their entire marriage is one big rejection. )

I know another thread where that would also be a very pertinent observation ;)

[Mahaut]

I would like to add a thought I had about the "something" between Sandor and Sansa. It’s an element I wanted to include in my essay on courtly love but I finally removed it.

The troubadours had a huge impact on the poetry of their time as they were imitated in all of Europe. But they’ve also had a prodigious influence on the Western conception of love. In Classical times and in the early medieval period, love was either seen as a sickness or a game (Ovid) or it was simply considered as a women’s matter (The Song of Roland). In the 12^th century, the troubadours and the trouvères were the first to introduce love as an ideal and a feeling to cherish. In their poetry, they also established love concepts that are still widely used in literature. Concepts such as:

- love needs an obstacle so that it flourishes

- hardships feed and reinforce love

- the pains of love

- …

These concepts are extremely familiar and may even seem cliché. But I think they fit Sansa’s and Sandor’s situation to some extent. I believe that their story is a romance because the text plays with all these traditional features (those mentioned here and the others in my previous post on courtly love) of the romance.

ETA: Happy Birthday to this great thread :)

[Elba the Intoner]

Happy Birthday to the thread and to all who have been regular participants!! It has been a fascinating and fantastic journey with you. Perhaps this is why the discussion today has been especially awesome.

It is indeed interesting. When Lady lost her life it looked like some negative foreshadowing for Sansa's fate, but this hasn't materialised; instead, we've seen Sansa's northern affiliation growing stronger as time goes on and the memory of Lady and her wolf identity is with her up to AFFC. Rag also mentioned the dragon's breath scene at the KL godswood, where Ned takes the girls to pray when they learn Bran has awakened. It's here that Sansa mentions seeing Bran smiling, and the role that Lady played might be responsible for her access to such a dream. Crackpotting, but hey... :)

I have been giving this a lot of thought lately because of some discussion I have been participating in on the "No Second Life for Sansa" thread over in the reread subforum, and I have to say I don't think this is so very crackpot at all. The No Second Life thread is about the possibility of Sansa warging and there were some examples of how all the Stark kids have warged, but of course for Sansa there is no clear cut example because Lady died so early on. There was mention of how Rickon likely warged Shaggy in AGOT when he has the same dream as Bran about Ned walking in the crypts, just after Ned is killed but before Winterfell hears news of it. It got me to thinking about the interconnection between all the wargs. It made sense as the story went on that Bran would have a dream like that because it's clear he has some greensight, but how could Rickon have had the same dream as Bran when he is not a greenseer? I think it has to do with his warging of Shaggy who is a brother to the other direwolves and they can each sense the feelings of the others. So the way this works is to start with Arya and Sansa who were present when Ned was killed. I think Nymeria would have sensed Arya's distress at Ned's death right away and possibly Sansa's feelings too, and then the other direwolves sensed Nymeria's feelings which they in turn passed on to their hosts so that's how Rickon could have sensed Ned's death before knowing it happened.

Now Ragnorak has tied these connections together even more in his excellent post and I really feel there is something to this. Lady's bones are in the lichyard at Winterfell. They still exist. Additionally, we have learned that wargs retain a part of their animal in them and doesn't the animal also retain some memory of it's host as well? I am thinking of Orell's eagle as an example. So Sansa's connection with Lady is still there and through that she could have sensed Summer's reaction to Bran awakening. I hope I am explaining this okay. As I am typing this I am realizing that it's hard to write down my thoughts on this.

[Lady Green]

To the questions about a father figure, I don't mean like he'll be her actually father, rather she's looking for someone strong and constant to replace Ned in her mind, she's going through a lot at the time, and Sandor provides that strength and consistancy.

I'm mainly saying this because Sansa is 12/13 and I've been that age and wanting for a father figure, and in unfamiliar circumstances I can only guess that you'd want one even more.

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh, thought of one more, when Sansa compares another guy to Sandor, he is "almost as tall, though not so heavily muscled".

He drops all of these hints throughout her POVs to let us know she's thinking of him this way.

I think in the reread, what stood out is that Sandor is mentioned or is in every single Sansa chapter bar one in AGOT (the one where she is writing the letter to Robb and Bran at Cersei's request and feels naked when LF looks at her).

I was certain there was one AFFC chapter where he was not mentioned, but then in walks Bronze Yohn Royce, who is described by Sansa as being "as tall as the Hound". It's like GRRM has gone to great efforts to name drop him in every single Sansa chapter we get, at least post when they form their initial connection at the Hand's Tourney.

Yup; the fact that she's now Alayne Stone is what supposedly removes Loras Tyrell from a being an eligible fantasy object, but this doesn't really add up when you consider that her unkiss memory was created when she's Sansa Stark, and that she goes on to put the memory aside, along with Sansa Stark's identity - "that day was done". So not only does Sandor get all the additional flourishes, but he's also quite adaptable/applicable to whatever the current identification is, unlike Loras Tyrell and co. I think by this point Sansa is over Loras in a much more significant way than social class would account for :)

Yes, Sansa's "mind Sandor" is not only fairly dynamic, but also very flexible. He's able to follow where Loras Tyrell cannot, as it were. I think it ties in with how Sansa herself develops, in that even if she rejects Sandor's notions that the "weak should get out of the way", she still adopts certain other points, of how the nobility lie and scheme, how they are insincere and duplicitous and that you need to be prepared for that.

On the other hand, he's also one of the few people who goes well out of his way to help and save her, despite how he tells her people are basically only in it for themselves. So he also embodies "words are wind" in many ways.

It makes me wonder if she on some level recognises that what Sandor did for her, he did for Sansa Stark, not for the Hand's daughter, the heiress to Winterfell, or any other gain he could hope for. It makes him a closer fit to Sansa's wish of "someone who loves me for myself" instead of Joffrey's suitably highborn wife, Willas', Tyrion's and Sweetrobin's claim to Winterfell and Littlefinger's path to Cat 2.0.

You say that as if it is something wrong :laugh:

Oh well I would never deprive you of the pleasure of hair shirt wearing and meadow skipping, on my honour as a Tarly. :P

I know another thread where that would also be a very pertinent observation ;)

Yes well, desperately trying to catch up there. Mea Culpa. :crying:

I'm mainly saying this because Sansa is 12/13 and I've been that age and wanting for a father figure, and in unfamiliar circumstances I can only guess that you'd want one even more.

While this is certainly a possibility, there is nothing in the text that really emphasises Sansa looking for a father figure. LF poses as one, but there you have the clear incestuous connotations.

So in other words, there is nothing in the text I can think of that supports your theory. You are of course free to dig out quotes that do support your theory as a basis for discussion. Otherwise, I am afraid they are just totally subjective and random statements that have little to none actual support in the text.

[Le Cygne]

I was certain there was one AFFC chapter where he was not mentioned, but then in walks Bronze Yohn Royce, who is described by Sansa as being "as tall as the Hound". It's like GRRM has gone to great efforts to name drop him in every single Sansa chapter we get, at least post when they form their initial connection at the Hand's Tourney.

I'm clunking along on a mobile as usual and got muddled. Yours is the quote I meant.

The one I mentioned was actually Arya noticing Sandor's muscles a second time (muscled like a bull, then in a later chapter, not so heavily muscled as Sandor).

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm clunking along on a mobile as usual and got muddled. Yours is the quote I meant.

The one I mentioned was actually Arya noticing Sandor's muscles a second time (muscled like a bull, then in a later chapter, not so heavily muscled as Sandor).

The only two men I can remember who get constant comments about their build are Sandor (really tall and muscled like a bull) and Robert Baratheon (built like a maiden's fantasy, awwh NedBert. :crying: ) Didn't Gendry get the odd commentary by Arya as well? What's with her fascination for muscle dudes? :lol:

[Veltigar]

Who said anything about the goodness of her heart? I think my post was clear that I expected it to be a political alliance or something of that nature first and foremost, and then we might see a friendship develop, or there might be the possibility that a friendship could develop. Dany would have a lot bigger fish to fry than considering pursuing justice against the children of a man who is long dead, and whom she would have heard by then was not the monster she imagined. And if it's so hard to imagine that she would put aside aside her hatred of the Starks for Sansa, why do so many countless readers imagine that she'd have no problem taking on Tyrion Lannister for the very same advisory services?

He shot a crossbow bolt into his own father, the greatest enemy of Targaryen rule in the whole of Westeros. Dany is his only chance to reclaim any power. He also has knowledge about the dragons and is overall highly educated (him correcting the Halfmaester for instance). He escaped the black cells and managed to travel to Mereen. He knows Aegon and he'll be the first to bring news of him to Dany. So yeah, Tyrion has a better shot at becoming thé advisor (not just an advisor, but the principal one).

One question I would like to ask to the Sansalovers here: how do you fit in Arya in this mixture? Fight between sisters? Both on the same side? ...

[brashcandy]

He shot a crossbow bolt into his own father, the greatest enemy of Targaryen rule in the whole of Westeros. Dany is his only chance to reclaim any power. He also has knowledge about the dragons and is overall highly educated (him correcting the Halfmaester for instance). He escaped the black cells and managed to travel to Mereen. He knows Aegon and he'll be the first to bring news of him to Dany. So yeah, Tyrion has a better shot at becoming thé advisor (not just an advisor, but the principal one).

Yes, these could sway Dany in Tyrion's favour, but this ultimately goes to my entire point. If Dany is as irrational and blood thirsty to want the deaths of the usurpers' children, then she shouldn't really give two hoots that Tyrion killed his father due to their own personal issues.

One question I would like to ask to the Sansalovers here: how do you fit in Arya in this mixture? Fight between sisters? Both on the same side? ...

They've had some very interesting parallels in their respective experiences. Based on some of Martin's comments, I'm beginning to expect that we'll see some future conflict, but not of the personality based type of AGOT. Even if they don't end up working end together though, I expect in the long run they'll be working for the same end goals.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I think in the reread, what stood out is that Sandor is mentioned or is in every single Sansa chapter bar one in AGOT (the one where she is writing the letter to Robb and Bran at Cersei's request and feels naked when LF looks at her).

I was certain there was one AFFC chapter where he was not mentioned, but then in walks Bronze Yohn Royce, who is described by Sansa as being "as tall as the Hound". It's like GRRM has gone to great efforts to name drop him in every single Sansa chapter we get, at least post when they form their initial connection at the Hand's Tourney.

Yes, Sansa's "mind Sandor" is not only fairly dynamic, but also very flexible. He's able to follow where Loras Tyrell cannot, as it were. I think it ties in with how Sansa herself develops, in that even if she rejects Sandor's notions that the "weak should get out of the way", she still adopts certain other points, of how the nobility lie and scheme, how they are insincere and duplicitous and that you need to be prepared for that.

On the other hand, he's also one of the few people who goes well out of his way to help and save her, despite how he tells her people are basically only in it for themselves. So he also embodies "words are wind" in many ways.

It makes me wonder if she on some level recognises that what Sandor did for her, he did for Sansa Stark, not for the Hand's daughter, the heiress to Winterfell, or any other gain he could hope for. It makes him a closer fit to Sansa's wish of "someone who loves me for myself" instead of Joffrey's suitably highborn wife, Willas', Tyrion's and Sweetrobin's claim to Winterfell and Littlefinger's path to Cat 2.0.

Bolded for emphasis, as this is one of the things about the Sandor/Sansa arc that has always stood out for me. Sandor puts himself out for Sansa, the person. Not for Sansa the heiress or Sansa the Cat replacement. In fact, I sometimes think that he cares for her more than her own brothers do (Rickon doesn't count as he's too young).

We've pointed on on re-read that Sansa, despite her close physical resemblance to Catelyn, is much more like Ned in personality (and vice-versa for Arya). We've heard Aunt Genna lecture Jaime in AFFC about how Tyrion is Tywin's true son. I wonder if someone is going to come up with that same observation that Sansa is much more like Ned than his other children (except Jon, who is most likely Ned's nephew!).

Still thinking about Ragnorak's Lady giving life to Bran theory and I want to do a little reading on that myself as it's very interesting...!

[Le Cygne]

Didn't Gendry get the odd commentary by Arya as well? What's with her fascination for muscle dudes? :lol:

Don't forget Jaqen, she noticed he was fine featured, handsome, and smelled nice. :)

[Caro99]

Happy B-Day to my favourite thread ever!! Can't believe it's been a year, but it's very gratyfying to know that thanks to the upcoming books and all the wonderful creative projects we've all come up with in 2012, the FP2P thread will surely live on for quite a while still *happy dance* I really do hate i haven't been able to post in the last couple of months, but i follow the thread daily cause i can't get enough of the things that have been discovered in relationship to my favourite character in the books and her influence on others (: thanks for still keeping this up, and I'm smiling cause on the thread's anniversary Sansa & Sandor are being once again discussed <3 and the nature and upcoming possible outcomes of their interactions in KL have been explained brilliantly!

Going back to lurking :P

[Mladen]

First and foremost HAPPY ANNIVERSARY, LADIES. You are truly example to all of us.

As for Sansa as sexual being (after all, we all are sexual beings)...I believe it`s all connected to Sandor. Every time when someone discusses sex like LF or Randa, she blushes out of her virginity, but when sex is mentioned in relation with Sandor, she gets confused with strange feelings. Feelings that no 13-year-old girl could explain to herself.

And as for San/San theory, unfortunately I don`t believe that Sansa will end up with Sandor. In Game of thrones you have to sacrifice something in order to win, and those two sides of Sansa will collide...Player and the pawn...

[bgona]

Oh!!!! I´m so happy to be able to read the thread at its Birthday!!! A whole year! wow!!!

:cheers:

Sandor is present at almost all Sansa POV as same as Ser Ilyn Payne. Maybe Sandor can be represent as the RED at Sansa live (at their first interaction he is wearing a red "tunic", his scars are red, and love is a danger at ASOIAF) and Ser Ilyn as the WHITE (Sansa first interaction got scared even Lady reacted growling, Ilyn has white hair, even the white is present at his shield checked with purple that means pain, and he was the one that cut off her father head). To me, white means death at ASOIAF.

[Ragnorak]

It is indeed interesting. When Lady lost her life it looked like some negative foreshadowing for Sansa's fate, but this hasn't materialised; instead, we've seen Sansa's northern affiliation growing stronger as time goes on and the memory of Lady and her wolf identity is with her up to AFFC. Rag also mentioned the dragon's breath scene at the KL godswood, where Ned takes the girls to pray when they learn Bran has awakened. It's here that Sansa mentions seeing Bran smiling, and the role that Lady played might be responsible for her access to such a dream. Crackpotting, but hey... :)

I did forget to include the godswood scene which is an important one. All the Stark children have their wolf dreams. Jon has his recurring crypts dream plus the black ice armor dream and Arya has the one dream about being lost and looking for Ned but other than that Bran, Arya, and Jon warg their wolves instead of dreaming. Sansa dreaming of Bran would fit with that being her wolf dream if Lady died to give Bran life. I'd be more comfortable if I could find at least one more example between that and Snow Winterfell.

I've been pondering possible connections to Tyrion, Dany or Jon whose mothers died in childbirth to give them life. Sansa gave up her second life so Bran can have a rebirth. It also fits well with Bran seeing the destruction of Winterfell in the last chapter of Clash and thinking it is broken like him and Sansa rebuilding Winterfell in the last chapter of Storm.

I also agree with Lyanna's assessment of the subtle way Martin handles the Starks and magic. Bran's pup is already in sync with him when they find the wolves and Jon "hears" the mute Ghost. The warging is evident even that early in hindsight but is lost in the feel of the "Daddy can I keep him?" puppy moment. Even as we learn more we've already seen MMD's bloodmagic, Dany hatch three dragons, and Mel with her hints of vast power and shadow babies. The Stark magic seems to pale in comparison.

[Lady Lea]

So, we've talked about Sansa being appointed as Rickon's regent, but I have a few thoughts I'd like to ask your opinion on:

In this scenario, would she be over 16? Would it matter if she was under 16? Under Westeros law, IS Sansa currently underage? This is something that ocurred to me in another thread, so I'm just going to copy what I wrote: In my country if you are under 16 you are underage, but if you get married before that (with a parent's or a judge's permission) then you are automatically considered emancipated. It is assumed that if you have the capacity to marry then you have the capacity for performing every other legal act.

If Westeros has a similar law, then she could be of age. Does this make sense? I know Tommen is married and still has a regent, but he is much younger. Sansa is nearing on 14 now, and will be older by the time a reunion with Rickon happens. Of course, if it takes too long and she's already 16, then this is a moot point.

[bgona]

I also agree with Lyanna's assessment of the subtle way Martin handles the Starks and magic. Bran's pup is already in sync with him when they find the wolves and Jon "hears" the mute Ghost. The warging is evident even that early in hindsight but is lost in the feel of the "Daddy can I keep him?" puppy moment. Even as we learn more we've already seen MMD's bloodmagic, Dany hatch three dragons, and Mel with her hints of vast power and shadow babies. The Stark magic seems to pale in comparison.

Not trully, if we get to think that Bran is at his way to be the opponent to R´hllor.

[Ragnorak]

@Lady Lea

I thought men were of age at 16 and women were considered adults post flowering. That may only be for marriage purposes and not ruling so I'm not sure. How old was Alys Karstark? I suppose if Lyanna Mormont can sent an FU letter to a King at 10 years old, Sansa can certainly be regent for Rickon. Jon wasn't the youngest LC so they has a few who were under 16 and that's with elections. I suspect the process of getting there will trump any technical age problems.

ETA

Not trully, if we get to think that Bran is at his way to be the opponent to R´hllor.

I meant in presentation not in actual power. I suspect that Bran is or will be far more powerful than Mel, but in presentation Mel seems like a shadow demon summoning, king slaughtering, magical arsenal and Bran is some poor crippled kid. Under analysis Mel seems less and Bran seems more but Martin doesn't package them that way.