Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[evita mgfs]

Sorry guys, apparently I got some sort of flu and I didn't have the brainpower to digest the Tyrion chapter - lots of stuff in there! Anyway, I'm getting there.

@ Evita

"Girl will "kiss" a one-eared black tomcat right between the eyes." - like the 3rd eye?

Bran falls through darkness in his 3EC dream. By the time we join him, he can already make out the ground below, but he's been falling for a long time, so presumably at some point it was completely dark (sounds like the world below is his only source of light). At the beginning, he's still mainly focusing on the darkness.

:bowdown: :bowdown: NANOTHER: GREAT CALL WITH THE 3rd eye! Thanks for filling in the "darkness" aspect of Bran's 3EC dream: all the characters in AGoT who have a POV "seemingly" take a journey through darkness. [i am not sure about Dany, but we still have a lot of AGoT to read]

So the heart tree has a face with a mouth, and the crypts "breathe"...more proof the heart tree and crypts may be connected?

:bowdown: :bowdown: NENYA: OH YES!! We definitely know from Martin's language patterns that the castle and the tree are intrinsically joined! I think this is exciting - and having others to brainstorm with!

[evita mgfs]

Tyrion III (Chapter 21)

We get more glimpses of the sad state the NW is in, including some statistics:

The underlined part must be a mistake. That'd imply he was LC at the time of Robert's rebellion, but when I tried to find some clues about when he joined/got elected, I found that his predecessor Qorgyle was still LC when Mance visited Winterfell and saw Jon& Robb playing in the snow, which had to be some years after the rebellion, then. Also, the wiki says he fought in the rebellion, and was Lord of Bear Island at the time, although doesn't provide a reference.

Later we have a good look at the castle during Tyrion's cage-ride up the Wall:

Mormont's monologue (or close enough)

After dinner they retire to Mormont's chambers, where they have some very strong mulled spirits. Mormont offers Tyrin escort back to Winterfell and then single-mindedly tries to get him see the need of/for the Watch. He speaks about the decline in both numbers and quality (see above), about Gared*, and the sings of winter, and not just any winter, but the 'Long Night' coming. He's repeatedly described as being 'deaf to' or 'paying no mind to' his reactions or the raven's interruptions, except for the short intercourse he has with Tyrion, about winters**.

Gods, he's desperate!

Does he have green dreams? It's unusual for the highborn and educated to put any stock in dreams at all, let alone use them as one of the main arguments to support their plea... so he must be very deeply convinced that his dreams actually mean something.

Also, what are these shapes, then? Are they literally dark (in which case I have no idea what they might be), or is he possibly dreaming of the Others? That could be one explanation why he believes the rumours about WW at Esatwatch...

The Others we get to meet are somewhere between Craster's and the Fist. But, clearly, they show up all over the place beyond the Wall.

So how much does the Watch know about these white walkers? I think Mormont at least suspects they might be the Others, seeing that he's talking about the 'Long Night'. There's the fact that the Eastwatch guys saw it fit to report it, and then Mormont thought it important enough to mention. Remarkably, it's a wildling term. Or lowborn term, possibly? Much is made of the possible difference between 'WW' amd 'Others' in Heresies, so it's worth keeping an eye on.

Anyway, as far as Tyrion's concerned, he's saying all the wrong things, but he just goes on, seemingly oblivious. I get the impression he just wants to get everything off his chest, even though all he really has is dreams, rumours and gut feelings, realising that this might be his last chance to be heard. No wonder he needed those extra strong mulled spirits...

*Gared:

He freely admits to being a fool to give Royce the command. Indeed, what happened t the 'you get what you earn' principle? Is it a case of being more concerned with the matters of the realm (not offending Lord Royce) than with the welfare of his own men?

Is that to emphasize how horrible the things Gared saw were, or to suggest that Gared might not have truly deserted?

**Winters:

Mormont and Tyrion discuss past winters. There was "a terrible cruel one that the maesters said had lasted near three years" when he was born, and he says he's seen 8-9 winters (all of them short). Seeing that he's 24 (if the wiki is to be believed) and it's been summer for the last 9, nearly 10 years, that implies a relatively quick change of seasons in between.

Tyrion also mentions the 'Great Summer', which his wet nurse said would come eventually, if men are good. I suppose it's not taught y the Faith, then - I wonder where the wet nurse got it from. Sounds a bit like the Red Lot, sans Azor Ahai.

Depending on when Mormont took the black, he might not have seen many winters on the Wall, although he surely saw many, and some bad ones, at Bear Island.

Giants:

I'm not sure what to make of giants, but they seem to be pretty significant in any case, so it's probably worth keeping track of them. Especially seeing Frey Family Reunion's comments about Norse mythology.

So, our newest giant is Tyrion:

Aemon answers in jest, but he's also dead serious: he didn't say what he said out of kindness and reaffirms it twice. We already got a similarly unsubtle bit of foreshadowing (literally) in Jon I with him "standing tall as a king". He must be really important to warrant all this (Loki? as FFR suggested).

Eyes:

How true.

"[Maester Aemon's] clouded, milk-white eyes moved to Tyrion’s face" and "as blind as Maester Aemon" - but we know Aemon has a way of 'seeing' things (perhaps more clearly than people with working eyes, as he just demonstrated)

The Wall:

When people say stuff like this, it usually means they do end up returning...

Rather ominous. Also, Tyrion's whims and instincts are leading him just in the right direction. How convenient.

Again very ominous.

I wonder if Tyrion ever got to piss off the edge of the world (as he said in an earlier chapter he wanted to). He might have been too concerned about freezing his manhood off...

Ghost:

Who was described using the same words in the Prologue? That's right, the Other Royce fought :worried:

I guess "impassive" is as good as he will get from the Stark direwolves... But still, now that Jon befriended Tyrion, he's no longer hostile.

:uhoh:

From Jon's chapters it seems that Ghost is a source of warmth (the source of warmth, even) to him, so it's interesting that Tyrion's POV would describe him in such a similar way to the Others. Of course, he's called Ghost for a reason, and these are all traits ghosts share with the Others. And they aren't known for their warmth either...

Wind:

That's Tyrion for you :P

Later, the wind swirls around him as he walks west.

:bowdown: :bowdown: NANOTHER: GREAT JOB! I especially like the discussion of Ghost's name as being important. I wish to add that one reason Bran drags his feet in naming his direwolf is that he admires the names Robb and Jon have conceived for their wolves, but especially Jon's name choice. Since Bran likes to watch from his window and the tops of the castle towers,so Bran wishes he were invisible: ghosts are invisible, so Bran thinks that Ghost is a most awesome name for a direwolf. Consequently, Bran hopes to think of a name for his direwolf with "similar" significance and thoughtfulness.

Then later, we have Bran's sister invisibe while a resident at HarrenHell: a "mouse" with no voice until Jaqen intercedes to make Arya a "Ghost" in HarrenHell, symbolically. Which makes me wonder about the "Ghost" in Winterfell: "ghosts" seemingly is a term associated witht he Starks in more ways than just Jon's name for his direwolf.

NANOTHER, you did a fabulous job! I am going to share a portion of my Tyrion III analysis from the Direwolf Reread NOT because I am trying to BEST you or anything! [i just get excited when I think I have "something" to offer the group - and I try to contribute "something" that you did not touch upon - if possible]. I thought that the "symbology" of the "crab" sounds heretical, so I am contributing that as well as the MOCKING motif I am tracing through the POV's.]

“Mormont picked up a crab claw and cracked it in his fist. Old as he was, the Lord Commander still had the strength of a bear.”

• Through Tyrion’s appreciation of food, Martin introduces those succulent crabs [“As they laughed, he [Tyrion] sucked the meat from a crab leg and reached for another. The crabs had arrived from Eastwatch only this morning, packed in a barrel of snow, and they were succulent”] that also have symbolic significance, as noted below, from the Online Dictionary of Symbology:
  

SYMBOLOGY OF CRAB

• Point 1: Crabs can be most closely related to the zodiacal sign of Cancer and the shortening of days after the peak of summer, thus related to death with the Summer-solstice and the death of the Sun-hero through Cancer.

• Point 2: The movement of the SUN(what causes the diminution of daylight) connects the crab with dishonesty and unreliability.
  
• Point 3: Most crabs, being crustaceans, have hard shells like ARMOR. Crabs are found either on land or in WATER, suggesting a dual nature that crabs may represent.
  
• Point 4: Associatied with bad-temperedness, aggressiveness.
  
• Point 5: Claws gripping, especially in dreams related to lobster, means sexual relations one wants to be free from.
  
• Point 6: Also in dreams, morally repressed sex, the orgasm, a gripping sensation in the abdomen. http://www.umich.edu...tml/C/crab.html
  

Point 1: The fact that crabs as a symbol are associated with the shortening of days after the peak of summer fits well with the discussion that Mormont has with Tyrion when they meet one-on-one, and Mormont begins this conversation by asking Tyrion how many winters he has seen [207].

He shrugged. "Eight, nine. I misremember."

"And all of them short."

"As you say, my lord." He had been born in the dead of winter, a terrible cruel one that the maesters said had lasted near three years, but Tyrion's earliest memories were of spring.

"When I was a boy, it was said that a long summer always meant a long winter to come. This summer has lasted nine years, Tyrion, and a tenth will soon be upon us. Think on that."

"When I was a boy," Tyrion replied, "my wet nurse told me that one day, if men were good, the gods would give the world a summer without ending. Perhaps we've been better than we thought, and the Great Summer is finally at hand." He grinned.

The Lord Commander did not seem amused. "You are not fool enough to believe that, my lord. Already the days grow shorter. There can be no mistake, Aemon has had letters from the Citadel, findings in accord with his own. The end of summer stares us in the face."

Mormont points out that Maester Aemon has been tracking the days [seasons] based on correspondence from the Citadel] and recording his findings regarding the shortening of the days. [Maester Luwin does the same, and Bran observes him doing so in his 3EC vision earlier.] Maester Aemon even has letters from the Citadel that confirm the end of summer, and winter is coming. [The lens from an earlier POV is sent to the Starks, and LITTLE WING oft mentions the LENS in context with POV's throughout AGoT: the lens is an instrument that helps a person to see more clearly! (LITTLE WING knows the exact words, I am sure!]

The reference to crabs being related to the death with the Summer-Solstice and death of the Sun-hero through Cancer speaks to Mormont’s confidences to Tyrion of the coming darkness and endless winter:

Mormont reached out and clutched Tyrion tightly by the hand. "You must make them understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams."

AND

"These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night's Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready."

Point 2: Dishonesty and Unreliability:Tyrion, in point, is dishonest by omission with Mormont in that he does not warn the Lord Commander that his passing on the Old Bear’s pleas for more men to man the Watch will fall on deaf ears; however, the readers are aware of the unreliability of those whom Mormont seeks for help and salvation:

"I promise, the king will hear of your need," Tyrion said gravely, "and I will speak to my father and my brother Jaime as well." And he would. Tyrion Lannister was as good as his word. He left the rest unsaid; that King Robert would ignore him, Lord Tywin would ask if he had taken leave of his senses, and Jaime would only laugh.”

Unreliability applies to the men on the Watch presently as well, even the men who are the high ranking officers, whom Mormont holds little faith in:

“Too old and too weary for the burden I bear, yet if I set it down, who will pick it up? Alliser Thorne? Bowen Marsh? I would have to be as blind as Maester Aemon not to see what they are. The Night's Watch has become an army of sullen boys and tired old men. Apart from the men at my table tonight, I have perhaps twenty who can read, and even fewer who can think, or plan, or lead. Once the Watch spent its summers building, and each Lord Commander raised the Wall higher than he found it. Now it is all we can do to stay alive."

I was surprised to note this early on that Mormont does not think as highly of Ser Alliser and Bowen Marsh, both of whom he suggests are sullen and tired old men. It appears that these two men may be integral in the Caesaring of Jon Snow in ADwD, Bowen Marsh even taking a dagger to his own Lord Commander, and Ser Alliser’s involvement NOW seems assured, although he is not present during the actual stabbing that we know of.

Point 3: Hard Shells like Armor: All the men dining on the crabs have “hard shells”, somewhat similar to a crab although their armor is one that guards their emotional well-being as well as the physical aspect. Tyrion has cautioned Jon Snow to armor himself in his bastardy, and the readers have learned from Benjen, Donal Noye, and Ser Alliser Thorne that the men on the Wall are hard, cold men, Watchers who have built a protective shell around themselves, even taking vows that forbid them emotional attachments to their families and their politics. They give up all such connections when they take their vows before men and their gods.

Moreover, the brothers build up a tolerance to the cold weather. This “shell” helps them cope with the freezing conditions they face day in and day out guarding the Wall and protecting the realms of men.

Point 4: Bad-temperedness and Aggressiveness: Ser Alliser Thorne is the crab eater among the diners who best represents bad temperedness, for he accuses Tyrion, a guest at dinner, of mocking the noble enterprise of the Night’s Watch and Thorne even reacts melodramatically by challenging Tyrion to a duel. Tyrion’s responses to Thorne are colored by a wee bit too much drink, but Thorne shows his aggressive nature by wanting to settle a jest in the yard with steel in hand.

Tyrion grinned. "Then I shall scour the Seven Kingdoms for dwarfs and ship them all to you, Lord Mormont." As they laughed, he sucked the meat from a crab leg and reached for another. The crabs had arrived from Eastwatch only this morning, packed in a barrel of snow, and they were succulent.

Ser Alliser Thorne was the only man at table who did not so much as crack a smile. "Lannister mocks us."

"Only you, Ser Alliser," Tyrion said. This time the laughter round the table had a nervous, uncertain quality to it.

Thorne's black eyes fixed on Tyrion with loathing. "You have a bold tongue for someone who is less than half a man. Perhaps you and I should visit the yard together."

"Why?" asked Tyrion. "The crabs are here."

The remark brought more guffaws from the others. Ser Alliser stood up, his mouth a tight line. "Come and make your japes with steel in your hand."

Tyrion looked pointedly at his right hand. "Why, I have steel in my hand, Ser Alliser, although it appears to be a crab fork. Shall we duel?" He hopped up on his chair and began poking at Thorne's chest with the tiny fork. Roars of laughter filled the tower room. Bits of crab flew from the Lord Commander's mouth as he began to gasp and choke. Even his raven joined in, cawing loudly from above the window. "Duel! Duel! Duel!"

Thorne obviously over-reacts to Tyrion’s witty repertoire, and no doubt he gathers momentum for his dislike of Tyrion because the dwarf came to the defense of Jon Snow in the common hall not long beforehand. The fact that Ser Alliser lacks a sense of humor and the ability to laugh at himself all mark him as aggressive and ill-tempered.

Point 5: Not Applicable. I do not believe any of the men dining on crab are involved in a sexual relationship in which they wish to be free of, so this point is not applicable.

Point 6: Morally Repressed Sexuality. The men of the Watch may indeed be morally repressed sexually since they are to forgo marriage and remain true to their vows. In a healthy heterosexual male, this aspect of the brotherhood may be difficult to maintain and cause sexual repression. Even Tyrion Lannister, another crab eater in the group, is sexually repressed for he can only find willing bedmates through paying for prostitutes to service him.

Ser Alliser Thorne walked from the room so stiffly it looked as though he had a dagger up his butt.

• The dagger up Thorne’s butt nods to the future daggers in the dark that may bring down Jon Snow.
  
• These early associations of daggers and Thorne lead me to believe that Thorne is somehow involved in the Caesaring at the end of ADwD.
  

MOCKING THEME AND LINKS TO THE MOCKINGBIRD

• ALIA OF THE KNIFE introduced the MOCKINGBIRD MOTIF in her analysis of CATELYN’S POV, and I am following up on it in Tyrion’s POV, for we have evidence of Tyrion himself “mocking” the noble enterprises of the Night’s Watch, at least according to Ser Alliser Thorne and even Lord Commander Jeor Mormont; moreover, we have Mormont’s raven literally playing the role of a “mockingbird” by verbally mocking the conversations he overhears by repeating key words while perched on key locations in the Lord Commander’s quarters during the farewell feast held in honor of departing guest Tyrion.
  
• Ser Alliser Thorne is not a man who likes to be “mocked”, or so we have learned from his early appearances with Jon Snow as we patiently wait seeing his promise to teach Ghost to juggle. For some reason, I believe Martin may be subtly linking Ser Alliser and Littlefinger, who wears the silver mockingbird pin as his representative of his sigil. In this POV, Thorne actually uses the word “mock” in his remark to Tyrion. To what purpose I am not sure, but we have a connection between them here in AGoT rather early on.
  
• On the other hand, Tyrion is a man who has grown up with mockery, as a dwarf he has endured all manner of verbal cruelties as a result of his physical handicap. As a means of coping with the taunts and torments of those who are unkind, Tyrion “arms” himself with defensive tactics as a means of retaliation; thus, he designs his volley of witticisms against those most offensive. For these reasons, Tyrion aligns himself with Jon Snow who has also been a victim of mockery as the bastard son of Ned Stark. Tyrion can “see” both sides of this vicious cycle: he is mocked, but then he freely “mocks” others with an ease and a sense of humor, and he seemingly targets those people who are the most guilty of mocking others, namely Ser Alliser Thorne. Ser Alliser Thorne was the only man at table who did not so much as crack a smile. "Lannister mocks us."
  

• In an earlier instance, Tyrion sided with Jon Snow and even lead the common hall in laughter when Jon Snow called Alliser on his remark about teaching Ghost to juggle. Now, Tyrion’s theatrics cause the high officers of the Watch to regale themselves in laughter with Ser Alliser the butt of Tyrion’s jokes.
  

Mormont was still gasping for breath. Tyrion pounded him on the back. "To the victor goes the spoils," he called out. "I claim Thorne's share of the crabs."

Finally the Lord Commander recovered himself. "You are a wicked man, to provoke our Ser Alliser so," he scolded.

• Mormont scolds Tyrion for his teasing of Ser Alliser because Mormont realizes that Ser Alliser is not the type to take a joke. But Tyrion takes no heed of Mormont’s warning, and responds:
  

Tyrion seated himself and took a sip of wine. "If a man paints a target on his chest, he should expect that sooner or later someone will loose an arrow at him. I have seen dead men with more humor than your Ser Alliser."

• Tyrion’s remark of seeing a dead man with more humor than Thorne is significant for it underscores the fact that Ser Alliser is not one to laugh at himself; in that regard, he has no sense of humor, so Thorne would do best to “armor” himself against the jokes of others at his expense in the same way Tyrion advises Jon Snow to armor himself with his bastardy. But Thorne is not one for self-reflection, methinks.
  
• Martin may also be hinting at a time when Thorne will rise as a wight, and thus prove that dead men have no sense of humor!
  
• Bowen Marsh tenders that Thorne nicknames his recruits in the yard, and these “droll” names are proof to the contrary: ie, that Thorne does indeed have a sense of humor:
  

"Not so," objected the Lord Steward, Bowen Marsh, a man as round and red as a pomegranate. "You ought to hear the droll names he gives the lads he trains."

Tyrion had heard a few of those droll names. "I'll wager the lads have a few names for him as well," he said.

• The names Thorne gives his recruits are filled with contempt and scorn, as in Lord Snow, which is also ironic because Jon Snow does become LORD SNOW when he is elected commander of the Night’s Watch.
  
• Since Tyrion has been a victim of name calling all his life, he does not sound appreciative of Thorne’s insulting nicknames for his recruits as a teaching methodology.
  
• In turn, says Tyrion, the recruits mock Thorne with insulting names of their own.
  
• Tyrion points out that the officers are blind if they think Thorne is a good choice for teaching the recruits arms:
  

“Chip the ice off your eyes, my good lords. Ser Alliser Thorne should be mucking out your stables, not drilling your young warriors.”

“The Watch has no shortage of stableboys,” Lord Mormont grumbled. “That seems to be all they send us these days. Stableboys and sneak thieves and rapers. Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King’s Landing.”

• Tyrion even mocks the “good lords” still at table, telling them to chip the ice off their eyes that blind them to the truth of Thorne’s lack of potential as the master-at-arms.
  
• Mormont grumbles like a bear, and he reminds Tyrion that Thorne is an anointed knight who fought bravely at King’s Landing, which places him on a higher ranking than the stableboys, sneak thieves, and rapers that have been sent recently as recruits for the Watch.
  
• Ser Jaremy Rykker adds to the conversation the scenario of how he and Thorne fought on the wrong side, and for this reason, they were given a choice to die or to take the black:
  

"On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion."

"None taken, Ser Jaremy. My father is very fond of spiked heads, especially those of people who have annoyed him in some fashion. And a face as noble as yours, well, no doubt he saw you decorating the city wall above the King's Gate. I think you would have looked very striking up there."

• Tyrion continues with the mocking, referencing that Rykker’s head would have made a fine addition decorating the city wall above the King’s Gate.
  

"Thank you," Ser Jaremy replied with a sardonic smile.

Lord Commander Mormont cleared his throat. "Sometimes I fear Ser Alliser saw you true, Tyrion. You do mock us and our noble purpose here."

Tyrion shrugged. "We all need to be mocked from time to time, Lord Mormont, lest we start to take ourselves too seriously. More wine, please." He held out his cup.

• Mormont voices his concern that Thorne may be right, and Tyrion does mock the Night’s Watch, and Tyrion does not deny this fault, for he even justifies that mocking is a good lesson to have reinforced now and again lest people take themselves too seriously.
  
• Tyrion may be speaking from the heart, or from the place that he knows to be true: after all, he is the one who tells Jon Snow to “armor” himself with the failing most likely to be used against him by others less than charitable. So in his pearls of wisdom, Tyrion knows that it is best to salt life’s little struggles with a healthy dose of mockery; it is one way in which Tyrion has learned to survive. Laugh at yourself and laugh with those who are laughing at you or else you will allow yourself to be brought down by words, and why give words the power to hurt you? Not in a world where there are swords and daggers to fear! [it sounds like a good philosophy, although the living it, the reality of it, is no doubt different than the mere joking about it.]
  
• Even Mormont’s raven gets in on the mockery, and since the raven is a bird, it most closely corresponds to the ‘mockingbird’, so in his words he mocks the action that is occurring around him:
  

Tyrion looked pointedly at his right hand. "Why, I have steel in my hand, Ser Alliser, although it appears to be a crab fork. Shall we duel?" He hopped up on his chair and began poking at Thorne's chest with the tiny fork. Roars of laughter filled the tower room. Bits of crab flew from the Lord Commander's mouth as he began to gasp and choke. Even his raven joined in, cawing loudly from above the window. "Duel! Duel! Duel!"

• From his place above the window, Mormont’s raven mocks Tyrion’s request for a DUEL, repeating it three times for measure. Even the LC laughs so hard at Tyrion’s joking that he spews food from his mouth.
  
• The word ‘duel’ is repeated after Tyrion says “duel”, but the word also has symbolic significance beyond a prearranged combat between two people armed with lethal weapons, usually to settle a disagreement over a matter of honor. The “duel” applies to the bandy of words shared among Thorne and Tyrion, and then others after Thorne departs. The “DUEL” as a word also mirrors the events that take place in the training yard, which Thorne oversees as part of his position at the Watch. Thorne maintains order as the recruits “duel” one another with blades, learning maneuvers to assist them in defending the Wall in future battles.
  

Mormont scarcely seemed to hear him. The old man warmed his hands before the fire. "I sent Benjen Stark to search after Yohn Royce's son, lost on his first ranging. The Royce boy was green as summer grass, yet he insisted on the honor of his own command, saying it was his due as a knight. I did not wish to offend his lord father, so I yielded. I sent him out with two men I deemed as good as any in the Watch. More fool I."

"Fool," the raven agreed. Tyrion glanced up. The bird peered down at him with those beady black eyes, ruffling its wings. "Fool," it called again. Doubtless old Mormont would take it amiss if he throttled the creature. A pity.

The Lord Commander took no notice of the irritating bird.

• The raven “agrees” with Mormont’s self-admonishment, and he reinforces Mormont calling himself a FOOL by repeating, or mocking, the word FOOL.
  
• Then the raven looks intensely at Tyrion, and he says FOOL again, but this time the mocking is directed at Tyrion. Tyrion has a desire to throttle the bird, but he exercises self-control.
  
• The significance of the bird labeling Tyrion a “fool” is important because Tyrion does not seem to take to heart Mormont’s concern for the safety of the realm. So the raven calls Tyrion a “fool” in earnest, and not as a mockery, although the raven does “repeat” the word “fool” because Mormont called himself a fool.
  

"Tell them, Tyrion. Tell them and make them believe. That is all the thanks I need." He whistled, and his raven flew to him and perched on his shoulder. Mormont smiled and gave the bird some corn from his pocket, and that was how Tyrion left him.

• We see the interaction between Mormont and his raven as Tyrion prepares to depart. Mormont ‘whistles’, and the raven leaves his perch above the window and flies to Mormont’s shoulder. THE BIRD DOES NOT ASK FOR CORN. Mormont dips into his pocket, smiling, to give his bird some corn unbidden!
  
• I wonder if the bird gets a treat because he behaved himself during the dinner party.
  
• I also noticed that DUEL rhymes with FOOL.
  

THE RAVEN AS SYMBOL

Like the crow, the raven is a generally negative symbol, although appearing occasionally in the Bible as a wise messenger.

It is a "talking bird, hence prophecy" (Cooper, 137), and is often a companion to the dead.

Jungian psychology defines the raven a the dark side of the psyche.

http://www.umich.edu...ml/R/raven.html

• After checking out The Online Dictionary of Symbolism, I did not learn anything earthshattering about the raven, and ALL the definitions apply to the bird as we see him when he first appears in the novels and as he appears in later novels: Mormont’s raven is a “wise messenger”, a prophet, and a companion of the dead: Bran’s warded cave is filled with ravens who had all been ridden by other forces. The raven also represents the dark side of the psyche, most notably in Craster’s keep where he witnesses the violations of hospitality by the Night’s Watch and the death of his master, LC Mormont. According to Jon Snow, the raven eats Mormont’s face in death even though the bird seemingly prefers CORN to other foods, which he pilfers frequently from unsuspecting brothers’ plates.

• I think that the raven plays a role of prophet/messenger and a link between the world of the living and the dead.
  
• All the raven says can be analyzed in many ways, and the bird’s words cannot be just taken at face value.
  
• The RAVEN links with the MOCKINGBIRD in that both “mock” the words of others.
  

SIGNIFICANCE OF MOR

According to The Free Dictionary, MOR means:

mor [mɔː]

n

(Earth Sciences / Physical Geography) a layer of acidic humus formed in cool moist areas where decomposition is slow Compare mull⁴

[Danish] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/MOR

• Since I was searching for “raven” as symbol, I typed in MOR, the first part of LC’s name MORmont, and I found a real gem, as you can read above. The cool area with slow decomposition seemed significant in regards to the location of the Wall and in regards to the talk of the white walkers, wights, the Others, grumkins, and snarks.
  
• I am not sure if Mormont’s name is important in reference to the acidic humus, but it may come into play later when we learn more about the origins and make-up of the Others and their minions.
  

[nanother]

@ Evita:

Excellent point abut the Stark association with ghosts. Your comment made me wonder if Sansa ever got 'ghostified', and indeed she had:

This was the first court session of Joffrey’s reign, so Sansa looked about nervously. A line of Lannister house guards stood beneath the western windows, a line of gold-cloaked City Watchmen beneath the east. Of smallfolk and commoners, she saw no sign, but under the gallery a cluster of lords great and small milled restlessly. There were no more than twenty, where a hundred had been accustomed to wait upon King Robert.

Sansa slipped in among them, murmuring greetings as she worked her way toward the front. She recognized black-skinned Jalabhar Xho, gloomy Ser Aron Santagar, the Redwyne twins Horror and Slobber . . . only none of them seemed to recognize her. Or if they did, they shied away as if she had the grey plague. Sickly Lord Gyles covered his face at her approach and feigned a fit of coughing, and when funny drunken Ser Dontos started to hail her, Ser Balon Swann whispered in his ear and he turned away. And so many others were missing. Where had the rest of them gone? Sansa wondered. Vainly, she searched for friendly faces. Not one of them would meet her eyes. It was as if she had become a ghost, dead before her time.

Edit:

That's some amazing stuff about the crabs :wideeyed: It never as much as crossed my mind that them eating crabs in particular might be relevant, and you come up with all this :D

Crackpot:

Point 1: Crabs can be most closely related to the zodiacal sign of Cancer and the shortening of days after the peak of summer, thus related to death with the Summer-solstice and the death of the Sun-hero through Cancer.

Tyrion is Azor Ahai reborn and is eating his own death.

:leaving:

[nenya~]

Tyrion also mentions the 'Great Summer', which his wet nurse said would come eventually, if men are good. I suppose it's not taught y the Faith, then - I wonder where the wet nurse got it from. Sounds a bit like the Red Lot, sans Azor Ahai.

Ser Jorah tells Dany that “The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends,”

Maybe it's just a thing common folk say? When I read that, I certainly thought of the Red Lot's legends, as well. Maybe the idea of a long summer just spread from their religion?

From Jon's chapters it seems that Ghost is a source of warmth (the source of warmth, even) to him, so it's interesting that Tyrion's POV would describe him in such a similar way to the Others. Of course, he's called Ghost for a reason, and these are all traits ghosts share with the Others. And they aren't known for their warmth either…

There's also Winterfell, in the middle of the North where you would expect it to be cold, but it has a source of warmth from the hot springs.

Then later, we have Bran's sister invisibe while a resident at HarrenHell: a "mouse" with no voice until Jaqen intercedes to make Arya a "Ghost" in HarrenHell, symbolically. Which makes me wonder about the "Ghost" in Winterfell: "ghosts" seemingly is a term associated witht he Starks in more ways than just Jon's name for his direwolf.

Bran and Rickon are referred to as ghosts by the Liddle when they are traveling north... “It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf’s dead and young one’s gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that’s left us is the ghosts.”

I was looking for a reference for Sansa, but nanother found one already. Nice find!

Also, I really like your points on the possibility of Thorne being involved in Jon's assassination. Your analysis on all the symbolism had me curious about Thorne, so I decided to look it up.

Crown of Thorns

Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.

And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews! (Matthew 27:27-29)

The soldiers mock Jesus with a crown of thorns and by calling him King. Ser Alliser Thorne certainly mocks Jon, giving him the name Lord Snow. The thorns also represent Jesus' suffering, and Ser Alliser tries to make Jon suffer as much as he can. There's also that mocking motif as well! Oh, and what about that reed in Jesus' right hand?

[redriver]

Crabs occur later in the series when Catelyn meets her dying father Lord Hoster.He feels like he has crabs in his stomach,pinching at him.

The raven's commentary on Ser Alliser and Tyrion seems to contain some clear foreshadowing by the bird.The two words it uses are,"Duel,duel,duel" and "Fool,fool,fool".The latter whilst looking at Tyrion.

Later in the books we encounter Tyrion dressed as a fool and duelling with Penny in that horrible grotesquerie.

[evita mgfs]

@ Evita:

Excellent point abut the Stark association with ghosts. Your comment made me wonder if Sansa ever got 'ghostified', and indeed she had:

Edit:

That's some amazing stuff about the crabs :wideeyed: It never as much as crossed my mind that them eating crabs in particular might be relevant, and you come up with all this :D

Crackpot:

Point 1: Crabs can be most closely related to the zodiacal sign of Cancer and the shortening of days after the peak of summer, thus related to death with the Summer-solstice and the death of the Sun-hero through Cancer.

Tyrion is Azor Ahai reborn and is eating his own death.

:leaving:

:bowdown: :bowdown: NANOTHER: THANKS - AND GREAT FIND! How did you locate that passage so fast? We are still early in the reread too, so I imagine we may find more "ghost" references. I believe there is one coming up regarding Jon covered in flour, jumping from an empty grave to scare his sister. [i cannot recall where this occurs!]

Poor Tyrion. Martin also has his monumental food discussions with Tyrion's POV - so I always look at the food people are eating for significance. Even the way they suck the meat from the crab legs reminds me of how the direwolves crack open the bones and suck out the marrow. I have this little twang in my mind about that association: only the wights who still have "marrow" in their bones can rise to serve the Great Other???

Ser Jorah tells Dany that “The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends,”

Maybe it's just a thing common folk say? When I read that, I certainly thought of the Red Lot's legends, as well. Maybe the idea of a long summer just spread from their religion?

There's also Winterfell, in the middle of the North where you would expect it to be cold, but it has a source of warmth from the hot springs.

Bran and Rickon are referred to as ghosts by the Liddle when they are traveling north... “It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf’s dead and young one’s gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that’s left us is the ghosts.”

I was looking for a reference for Sansa, but nanother found one already. Nice find!

Also, I really like your points on the possibility of Thorne being involved in Jon's assassination. Your analysis on all the symbolism had me curious about Thorne, so I decided to look it up.

Crown of Thorns

Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.

And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews! (Matthew 27:27-29)

The soldiers mock Jesus with a crown of thorns and by calling him King. Ser Alliser Thorne certainly mocks Jon, giving him the name Lord Snow. The thorns also represent Jesus' suffering, and Ser Alliser tries to make Jon suffer as much as he can. There's also that mocking motif as well! Oh, and what about that reed in Jesus' right hand?

:bowdown: :bowdown: NENYA: ANOTHER GREAT CALL ON THE THORN SYMBOLOGY!! We have the literal Ser Alliser Thorne who is like a "thorn" in Jon's side - AND we have a fable I recall about a thorn in a lion's paw, and here Ser Alliser Thorne is an annoyance to the little lion of Lannister.

Crabs occur later in the series when Catelyn meets her dying father Lord Hoster.He feels like he has crabs in his stomach,pinching at him.

The raven's commentary on Ser Alliser and Tyrion seems to contain some clear foreshadowing by the bird.The two words it uses are,"Duel,duel,duel" and "Fool,fool,fool".The latter whilst looking at Tyrion.

Later in the books we encounter Tyrion dressed as a fool and duelling with Penny in that horrible grotesquerie.

:bowdown: :bowdown: REDRIVER: EXACTLY!! :agree: You put it all together - how the bird hints at what is to come with Tyrion!!

I did not catch the Catelyn reference before, so good call.

I remember reading on a thread about the Ice Spiders. The poster said something along the lines of "maybe" the Ice Spiders are CRABS that come from the water since to an onlooker, a crab might look like a spider. So in Old Nan's story, when she speaks of the Ice Spiders, they may have come from the sea - and they are ridden by the strange white things that are in the water!

[Frey family reunion]

Crabs occur later in the series when Catelyn meets her dying father Lord Hoster.He feels like he has crabs in his stomach,pinching at him.

The raven's commentary on Ser Alliser and Tyrion seems to contain some clear foreshadowing by the bird.The two words it uses are,"Duel,duel,duel" and "Fool,fool,fool".The latter whilst looking at Tyrion.

Later in the books we encounter Tyrion dressed as a fool and duelling with Penny in that horrible grotesquerie.

The recurring motif of the fool regarding Tyrion is also set forth in Mormont and Tyrion's exchange:

Lord Commander Mormont cleared his throat. "Sometimes I fear Ser Alliser saw you true, Tyrion. You do mock us and our noble purpose here."

Tyrion shrugged. "We all need to be mocked from time to time, Lord Mormont, lest we start to take ourselves too seriously. More wine, please." He held out his cup.

The fool in medeival times is analagous to a comedian today, someone who makes witty references (and sometimes satire) about others, often those in positions of power. The fool can get away with what others can't because of his unique role in medeival society.

Tyrion's role as a fool may also be what is referenced in one of Patchface's prophecies which I think has been attributed to the Red Wedding in error:

"Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye."

Tyrion may be the fool (and Jon being the King). Blood on the maiden's thigh is also referenced at least on two (maybe three) seperate ocassions with Daenaerys (once right before her initial miscarriage, once at the end of her POV in ADWD).

Speaking of Patchface one of his prophecies also makes reference to crabs:

"Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs"

I wonder if crabs could be a reference to the Knights of Westeros.

[Little Wing]

Re: The marrow in the wights' bones - there have been discussions about that, so I'll just copy my impressions from another thread. Warning - I implied here that the Others raise the dead through some sort of skinchanging... There was a question posed, why even the wights' severed arms move around and they stop only when the marrow finally leaves the dead bones.

I really liked the marrow detail kissdbyfire put forward. One of the definitions Webster's online dictionary gives is: the seat of animal vigor. Maybe the bone marrow is the last "escape" for the Other "skinchanger"/"warg" when inside the dead that get torn apart and dismembered - explaining why even arms, hands severed from the body still move around.

The animal vigor thing is interesting. I'm probably off in thinking the Others skinchange into the the dead, because to skinchange, there needs to be "someone home" and if you're dead - there's no one home (which may make it even easier to skinchange the dead? no one's there to fight you off?). But, this animal vigor thing in the definition of marrow could be my crackpot floating device... It's what they use to skinchange into them, it's their seat, and that's why the wights can perform only some basic functions.

[Budj]

Re: The marrow in the wights' bones - there have been discussions about that, so I'll just copy my impressions from another thread. Warning - I implied here that the Others raise the dead through some sort of skinchanging... There was a question posed, why even the wights' severed arms move around and they stop only when the marrow finally leaves the dead bones.

The animal vigor thing is interesting. I'm probably off in thinking the Others skinchange into the the dead, because to skinchange, there needs to be "someone home" and if you're dead - there's no one home (which may make it even easier to skinchange the dead?). But, this animal vigor thing in the definition of marrow could be my crackpot floating device... It's what they use to skinchange into them, it's their seat, and that's why the wights can perform only some basic functions.

I've always liked the marrow theory. I think in the Bran chapter where they are fighting to get into BR's cave the wights keep coming until Summer cracks the bone. Then the limb stops. Could be wrong on that, but the direwolves snapping bone happened at some point, haha.

[Little Wing]

I've always liked the marrow theory. I think in the Bran chapter where they are fighting to get into BR's cave the wights keep coming until Summer cracks the bone. Then the limb stops. Could be wrong on that, but the direwolves snapping bone happened at some point, haha.

Yes, that's the part that is crucial here - the arm moves around until Summer cracks the bone and gets at the marrow... only when there's no marrow left is that the arm "remembers it is dead".

I dunno, but I think there's something there. I may be off on the skinchanging bit, but it's worth looking into. I mean, what's the last abomination you can do as a warg/skinchanger? Warg the dead. And I think it's probably the easiest thing, since there's no one to fight over the body. And the Other Skinchanger has only the marrow as the last thing to use in the dead - it's the skinchanger's seat (throne? hah) in the dead body.

[Melifeather]

The recurring motif of the fool regarding Tyrion is also set forth in Mormont and Tyrion's exchange:

The fool in medeival times is analagous to a comedian today, someone who makes witty references (and sometimes satire) about others, often those in positions of power. The fool can get away with what others can't because of his unique role in medeival society.

Tyrion's role as a fool may also be what is referenced in one of Patchface's prophecies which I think has been attributed to the Red Wedding in error:

"Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye."

Tyrion may be the fool (and Jon being the King). Blood on the maiden's thigh is also referenced at least on two (maybe three) seperate ocassions with Daenaerys (once right before her initial miscarriage, once at the end of her POV in ADWD).

Speaking of Patchface one of his prophecies also makes reference to crabs:

"Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs"

I wonder if crabs could be a reference to the Knights of Westeros.

I always understood Patchface's little ditty to be describing the Red Wedding:

Fool's blood = Jinglebell Frey

King's blood = Robb Stark

Blood on the maiden's thigh - Roslin Frey's maidenhead

Chains for the guests = Greatjon Umber, Patrek Mallister, Marq Piper

Chains for the bridegroom = Edmure Tully

[nanother]

Well, the dead will be coming soon enough.

In the meantime, I was skimming through the chapters we officially skip, so perhaps I'll post the highlights as I did before Bran III.

@ redriver, nice catch with the Duel/Fool foreshadowing!

@ Evita:

Thanks for filling in the "darkness" aspect of Bran's 3EC dream: all the characters in AGoT who have a POV "seemingly" take a journey through darkness. [i am not sure about Dany, but we still have a lot of AGoT to read]

I found something in the Dany chapter, which I'll look up again and post later.

To expand on your findings about ravens, I'll add the main mythlogical occurrences of ravens/crows that I can recall off the top of my head, without going into details. I'll include wiki links, though.

Odin - the one-eyed Norse god with two ravens flying out every day and bringing back tidings

The Morrigan - the celtic war goddess, known to be appearing as a raven/crow

Bran the Blessed - whose name means raven in Gaelic and his head was buried under the White Hill of London to watch over the country

There's more here: http://en.wikipedia....tions_of_ravens, but the above 3, especially the Morrigan, definitely come up a lot in Heresies

[Frey family reunion]

I always understood Patchface's little ditty to be describing the Red Wedding:

Fool's blood = Jinglebell Frey

King's blood = Robb Stark

Blood on the maiden's thigh - Roslin Frey's maidenhead

Chains for the guests = Greatjon Umber, Patrek Mallister, Marq Piper

Chains for the bridegroom = Edmure Tully

Trying not to get too far off topic, but I think Martin certainly wants us to think that's what the prophecy stands for, but I've got a feeling that it deals with an event that has yet to occur in the books. The manner in which the prophecy is given, is very telling. Patchface comes across Davos stops suddenly looks at him and then recites the prophecy. Davos has nothing to do with the Red Wedding, but something about him sparked Patchface into reciting the prophecy. I believe Davos will probably be involved in the event described by the prophecy (maybe as one of the "guests"). Second, it's very unusual that a prophecy of a future event is so literal, especially from Patchface.

I also believe we'll find a connection between Mormont's raven (and other Ravens) with Patchface. For example I believe that Patchface can detect Bloodraven's present in the white raven at dragonstone. So I beleive that it is significant that the roles Mormont's raven attributes to Tyrion (the fool) and Jon (the King) are repeated in one of Patchface's prophecies.

I also find it significant that one of Patchface's prophecies deals with crabs after Mormont's raven is a witness to the Nightswatch feast of crabs.

[Little Wing]

Tyrion being viewed as a fool reminds me of The Fool in tarot. Jon could be The Hanged Man. There's all kind of fun connections to be made...

ETA: Made a thread on this, actually :laugh:

[nanother]

Some stuff from the chapters we 'officially' skip:

One notable thing in the Arya chapter is the mention of 'the wolf blood' - it refers to Arya's (and Brandon's and Lyanna's) wildness, but is there more to it?

“Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”

“We all lie,” her father said. “Or did you truly think I’d believe that Nymeria ran off?”

Arya blushed guiltily. “Jory promised not to tell.”

“Jory kept his word,” her father said with a smile. “There are some things I do not need to be told. Even a blind man could see that wolf would never have left you willingly.”

That's Ned's interpretation of their house words. If there was a fiercer meaning to it, was forgotten by now (or he's just careful not to mention it to Arya):

When he turned back, his eyes were thoughtful. He seated himself on the window seat, Needle across his lap. “Arya, sit down. I need to try and explain some things to you.”

She perched anxiously on the edge of her bed. “You are too young to be burdened with all my cares,” he told her, “but you are also a Stark of Winterfell. You know our words.”

“Winter is coming,” Arya whispered.

“The hard cruel times,” her father said. “We tasted them on the Trident, child, and when Bran fell. You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you’ve never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya.”

“The direwolf,” she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.

“Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me.”

eta: forgot to say, I'm assuming 'white winds' = wind+snow in this case, not anything to do with the Others, but interesting wording still

As to Dany's journey in darkness:

Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion

.

And that goes on (together with the also painful and exhausting day-long rides) until she's ready to kill herself, but everything stars to change when she has her dragon dream. Now, Dany's dragon dreams would be interesting to discuss, but not sure whether to do it here and now, or perhaps in a separate thread? I have to go now anyway, will think on it later.

[Black Crow]

I'm assuming 'white winds' = wind+snow in this case, not anything to do with the Others, but interesting wording still

I don't have the reference to hand but don't the Wildlings refer to the "white cold" when Craster's boys come knocking?

[evita mgfs]

Hello again. Since we delved a bit into the “bones”, I thought I would visit my old, reliable Online Dictionary of Symbology in Literature to find the different aspects of the symbol BONE(S). Here is what my source had to say:

THE SYMBOLOGY OF BONE

****1) They are the last earthly traces of the dead, and seem to last forever: bones symbolize the indestructible life (it represents resurrection in Jewish tradition), yet also may represent mortality and the transitory.

****2) Flesh and bones can symbolize the earth. In general speech, can connote lack of flattery or the truth.

****3) In William Blake it refers to the past, tradition that often has to be broken.

****4) In T.S. Eliot, thoughts of something beyond the flesh, historical knowledge or memory.

http://www.umich.edu...ml/B/bones.html

****1) They are the last earthly traces of the dead, and seem to last forever: bones symbolize the indestructible life (it represents resurrection in Jewish tradition),

****1) The fact that bones are the last earthly traces of the dead is important in Martin’s work, especially since we have several references to the crypts of Winterfell where we learn the “remains” of “some” of the dead Stark lords and Kings of Winter are in repose. We even know that Ned returns Lyanna’s remains to the crypts through Ned’s POV and through Lady Dustin’s conversation with Theon in his POV.

The assertion that the bones “seem to last forever” and that they symbolize “the indestructible life” echoes Mel’s claim regarding a glamor: “The bones remember”. Moreover, since Martin’s novels offer many motifs for analysis, one that I have consistently followed is the author’s homage to Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar. In Marc Antony’s funeral oration, he makes a reference to Caesar’s “bones”:

ANTONY

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.

The evil that men do lives after them;

The good is oft interred with their bones;

So let it be with Caesar.

Antony’s oration is a scholastic study of “verbal irony”: Antony says one thing but means another. For example, he claims that he is speaking to Caesar’s funeral and not in praise of him; however, his entire oration DOES praise Caesar.

Therefore, when Antony says that the evil men do lives after them, does he imply that the “good” men do lives after them, and instead of the good being interred with the bones, mayhap the EVIL is what is ultimately interred with the bones.

If LITTLE WING’S theory of the “wights” warging the “dead” is viable, then if the “bones remember”, what is it that THEY REMEMBER? Maybe the bones remember the EVIL that humankind has done – since MAYBE in death, the evil is what survives????

****yet also may represent mortality and the transitory.

• Mortality: The bones symbolize mortality, or that which remains when humans die, after nature does its business, the skeleton is what survives the longest, before it to turns to dust. This, in turn, reminds me of the Eyrie waycastles: Stone, Snow, and Sky. Stone represents the bone, Snow the element of preservation, and Sky the domain in which the ravens fly, those ravens that have been “ridden” before: what force “rides” these ravens? Are the ravens sometimes endowed with the “spirits” of the dead? Or are the ravens warged by the greenseers alone?
  
• Transitory: The bones symbolize the transition of the human spirit into the world after, and if the bones that still hold the marrow contain an “aspect” of humanity that is either “good” or “evil”, hence the “soul” or “spirit”, then might this intangible force be what allows the wights or the Others to possess the dead bodies, or to “allow” or “order” the wights to possess the dead bodies, respectively? Magic may be at the root of how the Others, through their relationship with the CotF, reanimates the dead FOR A PURPOSE.
  
• My conjecture is that the minions that are the wights are reanimated to “punish” mankind for their faults and/or follies, and in my conjecture, I propose that through the forces that are the old gods, the violations of the laws of hospitality are the sins for which humankind must be punished.
  

****2) Flesh and bones can symbolize the earth. In general speech, can connote lack of flattery or the truth.

• When buried, the bones ultimately become part of the earth.
  
• Flesh and bones “connote” flattery and truth: King Robert says that his advisors are fools and flatterers, which implies that no one tells King Robert the truth that he needs to hear, until Ned Stark becomes Hand of the King. However, in the cast of Robert and Ned, Robert does not want to hear the “truth”. In actuality, King Robert prefers the “fools and flatterers”; they are far easier to tolerate than the “truth”.
  

****3) In William Blake it refers to the past, tradition that often has to be broken.

• This aspect of the bone symbology may speak directly to the “past” Long Night, and the “tradition” needs to be “broken” in order to prevent another long winter.
  
• The past and tradition may also refer to that which we do not yet know: what happened with Howland Reed on the Isle of Faces, and how the greenseers will be able to intervene to prevent the long night.
  
• The past and tradition may also refer to the ancestry that is the Starks, who are connected to the bloodline of the First Men.
  

****4) In T.S. Eliot, thoughts of something beyond the flesh, historical knowledge or memory

• Bones as representing “historical knowledge or memory” reminds me of the wormways beneath the Wall wherein Samwell finds scrolls and books filled with historical knowledge and memories of events that took place at the Wall. Documented history and memory survives the “flesh” of mankind, yes? But the flesh of the bones, or the marrow that remains on or in the bones, may also have some knowledge or memory of the past. [Othor seemingly “remembered” something about Jeor Mormont, for his wight went after him with a purpose in Jon’s later POV.]
  
• In order for the “flesh” of those living to survive, humans must discover the knowledge lost in scrolls and books, and even forgotten in a collective “memory”, in order to prevent the “past” from repeating itself. [Winterfell remembers! Or what the First Men knew now long forgotten in Winterfell?]
  

Well, that is my “stab” at how the symbology of bones might pertain to Martin’s works in general. Now, it’s your turn! [Many of you are more trained in the heresy theories than I am, but I tried!]

[evita mgfs]

Some stuff from the chapters we 'officially' skip:

One notable thing in the Arya chapter is the mention of 'the wolf blood' - it refers to Arya's (and Brandon's and Lyanna's) wildness, but is there more to it?

That's Ned's interpretation of their house words. If there was a fiercer meaning to it, was forgotten by now (or he's just careful not to mention it to Arya):

eta: forgot to say, I'm assuming 'white winds' = wind+snow in this case, not anything to do with the Others, but interesting wording still

As to Dany's journey in darkness:

.

And that goes on (together with the also painful and exhausting day-long rides) until she's ready to kill herself, but everything stars to change when she has her dragon dream. Now, Dany's dragon dreams would be interesting to discuss, but not sure whether to do it here and now, or perhaps in a separate thread? I have to go now anyway, will think on it later.

NANOTHER: Here are my notes on Arya’s POV regarding the advancement of the DOOR and WINDOW symbology in Martin’s AgoT specifically:

I think Martin’s uses of symbols have meanings that are not always “universal” but they are relevant to his series A Song of Ice and Fire. In other words, he employs “doors” for his own purposes – yet he also uses “doors” in a “universal” sense, especially later, when Bran passes through the mouth of the “face door” at the Wall.

I noticed that Arya closes her door and bars it against all others, but readily opens the door to Ned, even while holding Needle in her hand. She does not think twice about giving her father access to her chamber, nor does she fear that he will discover Needle. She has NO SECRETS from her father – she does not dissemble, and she answers him honestly. She does, however, protect Jon Snow who gave her Needle. She does not “lie” – she omits this information, remaining silent when Ned asks her who gave her the Bravos’ sword.

****WINDOWS are also important, and Martin even is using WINDOWS with Mormont and his raven. But in Arya’s POV, I noticed that Ned takes up residence on her “window seat” laying Needle across his lap, again assuming the position of the stone Stark statues in the crypts of Winterfell. In Catelyn’s first POV, Ned has Ice across his lap when he sits under the weirwood in the godswood, so Martin is suggesting death hovers over Ned and he soon will be a statue in the crypts of Winterfell.

Ned does not open the windows as he does while in Winterfell, and this suggests several things. He may feel “trapped” in his current situation, symbolized by not opening the windows. He also does not spend time studying what he sees through Arya’s window, which may suggest that what is outside is not what he wants to see, as he earlier studied the battlements of his home castle. By keeping the window closed, he may feel he is protecting his children and himself from the evils from the outside world, specifically the adders of King’s Landing.

Regardless, I saw just how vulnerable Arya is – and how deeply the situation with Lady, Nymeria, Mycha, and Sansa affected her. Arya opening the door for Ned releases the floodgates. She pours her heart out to Ned, exposing her guilt over the butcher’s boy. She does not hide the secrets of her heart from her father, and she doesn’t hate Sansa enough to skewer her with Needle, not really. Ned is father confessor for Arya, absolving her of her sins, magnified in her child’s mind. However, some of her thoughts of vengeance are deep-rooted, and she sincerely despises Cersei and Joffrey enough to do some “needlework” on them if ever given the opportunity.

But here is the “rub”: Arya loses Ned, and the hole left in her heart is enormous, and she needs to fill it with dark secrets spawned from these initial lessons she has learned about the darkness that dwells in the hearts of humankind. Egads! She is even present when her father is beheaded.

Two observations I have made:

• Arya’s hatred of Sansa is “superficial” and part of sibling rivalry and growing pains. She does not learn to process her hatred until Ned gifts her Syrio, and through her exhausting dancing lessons, she finally has an outlet for all her penned up emotions.
  

• Arya’s later journey to Braavos allows her to bond with “males” whom she consciously or subconsciously adopts as surrogate father figures, all of them pale in comparison to Ned, but Arya is not choosy and deals with the cards she is dealt. As a result, Arya takes the education each relationship allows her: Yoren, Jaqen, the Hound, and now the kindly priest impact her development, which compels Martin in his creation of a very complex, deep, and controversial player in his song of ice and fire.
  

As a servant of Him of Many Faces, Arya does not have to “think” about her victims as flawed people. She does not have to get to know them personally. Someone else makes the decisions for her. She does have to maintain objectivity, something she is slowly learning for I think Dareon is a kill she commits from passion and loyalty to Jon Snow.

It is ironic that the characters who most welcome windows are the characters who end up in locations as dark as night: Ned and his grave, Bran and his cave, and Arya and the HoB&W. Their theme song should be “Don’t Let the Sun Go Down on Me”!

[evita mgfs]

I wish to draw a few parallels with Daenerys’ POV and Jon’s POV: 1) Daenerys and Ser Jorah Mormont look from a ridge at the Dothraki sea of green grass in a fashion similar to Jon Snow and Tyrion looking from “the edge of the world” out at the haunted forest defined as “a wall of night”. 2) The ghost grass that glows in the dark and is possessed with the spirits of the damned remind me of the Others and their minions with their blue eyes and seemingly reanimated state. 3) Daenerys’ thoughts about the east reveal “rumors” of strange creatures: “It was said that manticores prowled the islands of the JadeSea, that basilisks infested the jungles of Yi Ti, that spellsingers, warlocks, and aeromancers practiced their arts openly in Asshai, while shadowbinders and bloodmages worked terrible sorceries in the black of night.” These “entities” bring to mind the dangers believed to lurk in the lands beyond the Wall, like the Others, the wights, the giants, the grumkins, the snarks, the skinchangers, etc. However, we learn in Bran’s POV that the mythical direwolves had vanished around the same time as the dragons BUT amazingly the Starks come upon a litter of direwolf pups on execution day. Consequently, in the minds of the readers, we realize that if direwolves are indeed a reality, then certainly the dragons are a reality, or will be a reality, in Khaleesi’s future. 4) Martin personifies the Wall, Winterfell, the wind, and more just as he personifies the wind “breathing” through the blades of grass. 5) Even though Daenerys shivers when Ser Jorah speaks of the dying grasses, Martin discloses her relationship with fire, heat, flame, and dragons; likewise, Jon Snow is defined in terms of “ice and cold” as a bastard of Ned Stark, Lord of Winterfell – even his name depicts an arctic environment: “Snow”. The Stark’s house sigil is the direwolf, and Jon Snow’s direwolf is named “Ghost”, an appellation shared with the “ghost” grass that Ser Jorah speaks of. 6) Daenerys removes her boots so that her bare feet are exposed to the grass and the dirt. In a similar fashion that is rather a “stretch”, Tyrion and Jon remove their gloves to shake hands, bare flesh touching bare flesh. Somehow the idea of the bare skin in contact with “something” implies a mystic communion of some kind: Dany in the grass emphasizes her acceptance and marriage to the Dothraki people and their culture. Tyrion and Jon shaking hands is a demonstration of friendship, or the joining of two rival houses, the Starks and the Lannisters. 7) Dany draws comfort and strength from her dragon eggs just as Jon draws comfort from Ghost. 8) Both are rejuvenated in their darkest moments of despair, both find strength in their respective sources, and both change their ways of looking at their plights. 9) Daenerys and Jon Snow are the victims of the whims of others, and neither is allowed a voice in his/her path for his/her future. Daenerys is sold to Khal Drogo by Viserys for a crown, and Jon is sent to the Wall primarily because of Catelyn’s desire to rid her family of the bastard. 10) Both display survivors’ instincts and mentally and physically adapt to their lots and their environments. 11) Both Dany and Jon have dreams prophetic dreams that remind them of whom they are: Dany and her dragon; Jon and the Winterfell crypts - he is afraid to complete his descent in darkness.

NANOTHER: I have some notes on Dany's dream and I also did the symbology of "grass" in regards to the Dothraki Sea, if you would like for me to post them as well.

[Melifeather]

@evita

I always enjoy reading your insightful posts. Thank you for these two: the bones, and the windows and doors. I really only had two additional thoughts while reading:

ANTONY

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.

The evil that men do lives after them;

The good is oft interred with their bones;

So let it be with Caesar.

The way this reads to me is the evil that men do continues after death, because the people that the evil was directed towards had repercussions. Whereas, if an evil person had any good in them, most of the time its either forgotten and buried with the dead, or the effects of the good were out weighed by the evil. So in Caesar's case, his bones would contain his "goodness".

She does not hide the secrets of her heart from her father, and she doesn’t hate Sansa enough to skewer her with Needle, not really.

I have 5 sisters myself, and I can attest that my relationships with them are equal portions of love and hate. The opposite of love is not hate, as love and hate are two sides of the same coin, whereas the opposite of love is indifference. If you find that you still feel hatred for a former spouse that you've divorced, you probably still love that person in equal portion to the amount of hatred you feel. But, if you can look at that person and feel nothing, you would then be indifferent, and therefore no longer in love.

The flip side of this however is if you hate someone that you've never loved. You may need to search deep within yourself as to why you hate this person. Very likely you see qualities in that person that you actually despise in yourself.