Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[evita mgfs]

@evita

I always enjoy reading your insightful posts. Thank you for these two: the bones, and the windows and doors. I really only had two additional thoughts while reading:

ANTONY

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.

The evil that men do lives after them;

The good is oft interred with their bones;

So let it be with Caesar.

The way this reads to me is the evil that men do continues after death, because the people that the evil was directed towards had repercussions. Whereas, if an evil person had any good in them, most of the time its either forgotten and buried with the dead, or the effects of the good were out weighed by the evil. So in Caesar's case, his bones would contain his "goodness".

She does not hide the secrets of her heart from her father, and she doesn’t hate Sansa enough to skewer her with Needle, not really.

I have 5 sisters myself, and I can attest that my relationships with them are equal portions of love and hate. The opposite of love is not hate, as love and hate are two sides of the same coin, whereas the opposite of love is indifference. If you find that you still feel hatred for a former spouse that you've divorced, you probably still love that person in equal portion to the amount of hatred you feel. But, if you can look at that person and feel nothing, you would then be indifferent, and therefore no longer in love.

The flip side of this however is if you hate someone that you've never loved. You may need to search deep within yourself as to why you hate this person. Very likely you see qualities in that person that you actually despise in yourself.

:bowdown: :bowdown: FEATHER CRYSTAL: THANKS FOR RESPONDING! I LOVE YOUR POSTS AS WELL. I agree with your interp of the Caesar quote: I was trying to use the "verbal irony" as a tie-in theme with the white walkers - if the "bones remember", maybe what they remember is not "goodness" but the "evil", which would explain why they are a force that seems an enemy to the living. I probably did not explain myself well enough! [Part of my theory is the result of a real life event: when my grandmother died due to cancer spreading to her vital organs, my mother said several times that it bothered her than we had to bury grandma with all that "cancer" still inside her - and don't ask me how, but in my mind I equated the "disease" aspect with the earthly remains that are so big a part of Martin's series!]

Guess what? I have FOUR SISTERS! We had some knock down, blow up fights that I still remember. My poor mother went through H_ _ _ L with us, or so she says, and I remember. She used to count out potato chips, M & M's, and French fries because we would have fights at the dinner table or on treat night if one sister received one more chip or M & M or French fry than another!! Then, when we became teens, the "clothing" fights were a nightmare! We didn't have Needle - but we would hurl potatoes at one another!

But when one of my sister's was hit by a car while jogging and we faced the possibility of losing her, some of our vile "hatred" for one another was tempered with compassion. Thankfully, Grace survived; however, the incident and others like it that bring a family together taught us to appreciate one another more. That does not mean that we do not see fire works when we all get together over the holidays! [However, a lot of those arguments are stupid and fueled by too much alcohol consusumption!]

Anyways, I hope that when and if Arya and Sansa reunite after believing that the other is lost to them forever, they will have a different outlook on sisterhood!

[Melifeather]

I think hatred for a loved one is fueled by the sometimes unrecognized feeling of betrayal. We expect loyalty from loved ones and betrayal is such a strong, bitter feeling. Arya very naturally felt utterly betrayed by Sansa, because she expected her to be loyal, and when Sansa chose Joffrey over her own family, I as a reader hated Sansa too! :tantrum:

[evita mgfs]

I think hatred for a loved one is fueled by the sometimes unrecognized feeling of betrayal. We expect loyalty from loved ones and betrayal is such a strong, bitter feeling. Arya very naturally felt utterly betrayed by Sansa, because she expected her to be loyal, and when Sansa chose Joffrey over her own family, I as a reader hated Sansa too! :tantrum:

ABSOLUTELY!! With the upshot of the entire betrayal being Lady's death, as a reader I doubly blamed Sansa!! Especially since our author earlier displayed for us the "generosity" of Jon Snow: giving up having a pup so that his siblings, the true born children of Ned Stark, could have a direwolf pup. Then, Jon Snow's heartfelt goodbyes to Bran and Robb further bolstered Jon's kind nature. Then we have to face the animosity between Sansa and Arya. Since I had no brothers, I cannot speak to the dynamic that is "brotherhood". [i also "forgave" Sansa once Martin developed her character a bit more!]

[nanother]

I don't have the reference to hand but don't the Wildlings refer to the "white cold" when Craster's boys come knocking?

They do indeed, that's why I thought Ned's choice of words was interesting.

@ Evita: I think it'd be better to have a separate thread for Dany/Essos discussion. I'm starting to see the benefit in 'by POV' re-reads, so I'd prefer to keep this thread mostly North-focused. Unless of course everyone else disagrees :unsure:

[Little Wing]

They do indeed, that's why I thought Ned's choice of words was interesting.

@ Evita: I think it'd be better to have a separate thread for Dany/Essos discussion. I'm starting to see the benefit in 'by POV' re-reads, so I'd prefer to keep this thread mostly North-focused. Unless of course everyone else disagrees :unsure:

I agree. I love to digress myself, but we should try and stick with the program - I've lost track what we were discussing :drunk:

[nanother]

Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. I had a pretty exhausting day as well, so can't cope with all those nice long analyses tonight - sorry, I did try, and they do look interesting! Maybe after I get some sleep...

[Little Wing]

Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. I had a pretty exhausting day as well, so can't cope with all those nice long analyses tonight - sorry, I did try, and they do look interesting! Maybe after I get some sleep...

No worries, you get some rest, but not before you read the notes from the new Barristan chapter reading! It's in the WoW section :)

[nanother]

Oh WoW!

edit: very off-topic, but did he read an Aeron chapter at some point? Or was he only going to but the audience preferred some other POV instead?

Also, I'll see if a few mugs of tea can restore my brain function enough to start a thread on Dany.

[Frey family reunion]

One last observation before we move on from Tyrion's point of view, I found this portion of his interaction with Mormont significant:

Tyrion seated himself and took a sip of wine. "If a man paints a target on his chest, he should expect that sooner or later someone will loose an arrow at him.

In Norse mythos: Baldr was a god who was the second son of Odin and Frigg. His mother had a vision that his doom was coming soon. To prevent it, she made all of the objects on heaven and earth promise not to harm him. The only object she missed was mistletoe. Because of his invulnerability, the other gods would have engage in a "game" where they would shoot arrows at him to see them bounce off. Loki apporached Hodor (name sound familiar?) who was the brother of Baldr and also blind. Loki asked him why he wasn't taking part in the game. When Hodor replied that he was blind and wouldn't know where to shoot the arrow, Loki handed him a bow and a mistletoe arrow and directed him where to shoot. Baldr, was shot and killed. (Later there is a funeral pyre for Baldr, that has some similarities with Dany's funeral pyre for Drohgo).

[Little Wing]

edit: very off-topic, but did he read an Aeron chapter at some point? Or was he only going to but the audience preferred some other POV instead?

GRRM gave a choice between Aeron's and Arianne's (I think) chapter and they chose her, although GRRM was coaxing them into choosing the Aeron chapter and said it was creepy/weird... What was wrong with those people? GRRM says you should pick Aeron - you pick Aeron...

ETA: Oh, and I love your posts Frey Family Reunion - I wish you posted on Heresy as well :)

[nanother]

Thread for Dany discussion:

http://asoiaf.wester...l-look-at-dany/

[nanother]

Bran IV

More dreams, more Old Nan stories, more about direwolves... another chapter packed with goodness :drool: In fact, so packed that it's impossible to cover everything in one post in any sort of detail...

Wolves:

In the yard below, Rickon ran with the wolves.

Bran watched from his window seat. Wherever the boy went, Grey Wind was there first, loping ahead to cut him off, until Rickon saw him, screamed in delight, and went pelting off in another direction. Shaggydog ran at his heels, spinning and snapping if the other wolves came too close. His fur had darkened until he was all black, and his eyes were green fire. Bran’s Summer came last. He was silver and smoke, with eyes of yellow gold that saw all there was to see. Smaller than Grey Wind, and more wary. Bran thought he was the smartest of the litter.

Right, we have burning blue, red as the usual fire color, and now burning green? Not sure if that's supposed to mean anything in itself, or just in the context of black/green being complementary to white/red (or both) :unsure:

Oh, wildfire is green, right?

Later:

The door to the yard flew open. Sunlight came streaming across the hall as Rickon burst in, breathless. The direwolves were with him. The boy stopped by the door, wide-eyed, but the wolves came on. Their eyes found Lannister, or perhaps they caught his scent. Summer began to growl first. Grey Wind picked it up. They padded toward the little man, one from the right and one from the left.

Grey Wind is supposed to be the 'leader' of the pack, but here Summer takes the lead - as if he were aware of the Lannisters' role in Bran's fall... he's also very reluctant to obey when Bran calls him off (and Bran takes the lead there, even though Robb's the Lord).

The direwolf heard the voice, glanced at Bran, and again at Lannister. He crept backward, away from the little man, and settled down below Bran’s dangling feet.

Robb had been holding his breath. He let it out with a sigh and called, “Grey Wind.” His direwolf moved to him, swift and silent. Now there was only Shaggy dog, rumbling at the small man, his eyes burning like green fire.

“Rickon, call him,” Bran shouted to his baby brother, and Rickon remembered himself and screamed, “Home, Shaggy, home now.” The black wolf gave Lannister one final snarl and bounded off to Rickon, who hugged him tightly around the neck.

He used the same metaphor for Shaggy's eyes in the first paragraph... Anyway, nice to see the different reactions of the wolves to being called...

More wolf interaction:

Summer snatched table scraps from Bran’s hand, while Grey Wind and Shaggydog fought over a bone in the corner. Winterfell’s dogs would not come near the hall now. Bran had found that strange at first, but he was growing used to it.

That night, after the plates had been cleared, Robb carried Bran up to bed himself. Grey Wind led the way, and Summer came close behind.

Crows:

“It was just a lie,” he said bitterly, remembering the crow from his dream. “I can’t fly. I can’t even run.”

“Crows are all liars,” Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. “I know a story about a crow.”

Now I really want to hear that story...

The crow had tricked him into flying, but when he woke up he was broken and the world was changed. They had all left him, his father and his mother and his sisters and even his bastard brother Jon.

Crows/ravens do seem to have a 'trickster' ascpect attributed to them (edit: I mean IRL). Yet, in this case, did the crow really lie?

Speaking of crows, the Morrigan:

From the wiki it seems that in different sources she appears under different names, in slightly different roles. Altogether, she comes across as a war goddess, or a trio of war goddesses, influencing battles or announcing impending death... often appearing as a crow/raven, attractive young woman, or old hag. Some Heretics tie that into the Maiden/Mother/Crone trio. The legend of Cu Chulainn and the connection to the Bean Sidhe will be of particular interest later.

Old Nan:

Could she be the 'old hag' aspect of the Morrigan? That'd certainly make her above statement about all crows being liars mischievously ironic.

“I hate your stupid stories.”

The old woman smiled at him toothlessly. “My stories? No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, before you too.”

:cool4: ... but: before you, but not after you? Is this some sort of clue, a slightly lazy use of language, or do I get confused too easily?

She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully; shrunken and wrinkled, almost blind, too weak to climb stairs, with only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp. No one really knew how old she was, but his father said she’d been called Old Nan even when he was a boy. She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms. Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him. He had been an older brother of Lord Rickard, Bran’s grandfather, or perhaps a younger brother, or a brother to Lord Rickard’s father. Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another. In all the stories the little boy died at three of a summer chill, but Old Nan stayed on at Winterfell with her own children.

“I could tell you the story about Brandon the Builder,” Old Nan said. “That was always your favorite.”

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Maybe one of the other Brandons had liked that story. Sometimes Nan would talk to him as if he were her Brandon, the baby she had nursed all those years ago, and sometimes she confused him with his uncle Brandon, who was killed by the Mad King before Bran was even born. She had lived so long, Mother had told him once, that all the Brandon Starks had become one person in her head.

That can happen with stories as well. They merge as people keep retelling them over the years, decades, etc. It's already happening with the details of Old Nan's Brandon, as we see. Yet, I recall that Martin said Old Nan's stories are very reliable? I'd be grateful if someone could find where that comes from...

In any case, there this SSM about Bran the Builder being possibly only a legend, and other aspects of building the Wall, here

Last Hero:

(spoilering very long quote)

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed. “Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?”

“Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only …”

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen.

“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—”

The door opened with a bang, and Bran’s heart leapt up into his mouth in sudden fear, but it was only Maester Luwin, with Hodor looming in the stairway behind him.

Old Nan is conveniently interrupted, and Bran's off to see Tyrion. We do get to know a bit about how it ended, though, at the feast while discussing Benjen with the NW men:

All Bran could think of was Old Nan’s story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. “The children will help him*,” he blurted, “the children of the forest!”

Theon Greyjoy sniggered, and Maester Luwin said, “Bran, the children of the forest have been dead and gone for thousands of years. All that is left of them are the faces in the trees.”

“Down here, might be that’s true, Maester,” Yoren said, “but up past the Wall, who’s to say? Up there, a man can’t always tell what’s alive and what’s dead.”

*I saw this quoted as "the children will save him" in the Heresies more than once. Seemingly a small difference, but when debating just how substantial that help might have been, it can be important.

It'd be interesting to see how the story relates to real world myths... The similarity between 13 heroes setting out on a quest to find the children and the quest for the Holy Grail was discussed to some extent in Heresies; the element of losing/giving up everything before you can receive the 'divine grace' (be that dragons, FM training, or whatever else) is more or less present in most protagonists' POVs. But if I try to explore all that now, I'll never finish this post :D

Similarly, exploring how details about the Others/CotF correspond to Sidhe lore requires more thought and a post (or several) on its own. I'll do it sometime later, unless someone with better understanding of Celtic lore does it before me (Black Crow?)

Yoren's reaction above indicates that the Watch (or some of the rangers) know there's something funny going on beyound the Wall, and with things that are supposed to be dead, in particular... Did he actually see dead men walking? Or just corpses disappearing?

Dream:

After the Tyrion incident, he has a nap and dreams abut climbing. We know from Maester Luwin that he remembers nothing about the fall, but it seems he does in his dreams, or starts to:

In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase. Higher and higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. “I didn’t hear,” he wept as they came closer and closer, “I didn’t, I didn’t.”

He woke gasping, lost in darkness, and saw a vast shadow looming over him. “I didn’t hear,” he whispered, trembling in fear, but then the shadow said “Hodor,” and lit the candle by the bedside, and Bran sighed with relief.

So instead of seemingly endless falling, now it's seemingly endless climbing. Can he indeed not fly, or is he refusing to?

And what's up with the glowing red eyes?

Hodor:

The only kin of tiny Old Nan to remain in Winterfell is the giant Hodor.

“Hodor!” Hodor agreed happily. He ducked to get his great shaggy head under the door. Hodor was nearly seven feet tall. It was hard to believe that he was the same blood as Old Nan. Bran wondered if he would shrivel up as small as his great-grandmother when he was old. It did not seem likely, even if Hodor lived to be a thousand.

We also learn that Hodor is not his real name :)

Theon Greyjoy had once commented that Hodor did not know much, but no one could doubt that he knew his name. Old Nan had cackled like a hen when Bran told her that, and confessed that Hodor’s real name was Walder. No one knew where “Hodor” had come from, she said, but when he started saying it, they started calling him by it. It was the only word he had.

[Black Crow]

Interesting comment by Yoren, I'd forgotten about that one when we were discussing how much the rangers really know about what's lurking in the white woods. The point is that this is still half a book away from Othor and Jafer.

[nenya~]

That can happen with stories as well. They merge as people keep retelling them over the years, decades, etc. It's already happening with the details of Old Nan's Brandon, as we see. Yet, I recall that Martin said Old Nan's stories are very reliable? I'd be grateful if someone could find where that comes from…

I tried to google old nan in the SSM's but can't seem to find it, unless it's from a video interview or something? Anyway, when he says reliable I think he might just mean that there is some truth to her stories and may be more reliable than maesters/septons.

Ned tells Cat “You listen to too many of Old Nan’s stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one.”

However, that doesn't mean that everything Old Nan says is the absolute truth and doesn't exaggerate a bit (She calls wildlings cruel men, slavers, etc, but we see they aren't that different from people south of the Wall. Sure they have their thieves, murderers, and rapers but it's not like south of the Wall isn't full of them either. The NW surely has their pick of criminals).

As for stories merging, I think you're right about that. I believe that's what happened with Bran the Builder building the Wall, Winterfell, and Storm's End. Martin also said that Bran the Builder was a legend and may not even exist like the heroes in legends in our own world, but well….it's not like we have greenseers that can actually see thousands of years into the past. I can see how a greenseer may confuse all these Brandons and Starks and misjudge how long ago some of these events were, since we are told time is different for weirwoods. Bran even confuses Lyanna with Arya in his weirwood dream. (not to mention a language barrier with the Old Tongue).

And what about the crypts? Surely, there have been Starks that were curious to see if there was actually a statue of Bran the Builder. I know I would :D

And what's up with the glowing red eyes?

Red eyes for Lannister red? The gargoyles seem to represent the Lannisters with the mention of them being lions and whispering, but I'm not sure about the "glowing hot as coals" though. We have Shaggydog with burning green eyes, and now the gargoyles with red eyes hot as coal.

[Frey family reunion]

Children of the forest that were greenseers had either red or green eyes, while those that didn't have the ability had golden eyes (if memory serves). Also, Bloodraven had red eyes(eye) and Shiera Seastar had one bright green eye and one blue eye. The green grace had green eyes.

[Melifeather]

Old Nan's comment to Bran that the stories were before her and after her, but also before Bran. Why would she say that? Obviously Bran is much younger than her, so why "before you too"? I've seen some people theorize that Bran is from the past and so would be older than Old Nan. I don't necessarily believe that, but I would say that her statement sort of hints to something along those lines.

The Long Night lasted a generation. How long is a Westerosi generation? 70 years?

Old Nan also said that the White Walkers fed their dead on the flesh of human children. What's the nugget of truth here? We know Craster is sacrificing his sons to the Others, and his wives think the White Walkers are the sons, but maybe they do eat them? :dunno:

I too think the gargoyles are Cersei and Jaime. Red always seems to have an evil intent to me, so the red eyes and the appearance of the Lannisters being gargoyles are a manifestation of "danger" in Bran's dream.

Hodor is actually Walder, heh? Are we supposed to think he has Frey blood in him?

[nanother]

Re: SSM about Old Nan being reliable - this quote from Ran as good as confirms he said no such thing. Or if he did, it must have been something along the lines nenya's post

I tried to google old nan in the SSM's but can't seem to find it, unless it's from a video interview or something? Anyway, when he says reliable I think he might just mean that there is some truth to her stories and may be more reliable than maesters/septons.

Ned tells Cat “You listen to too many of Old Nan’s stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one.”

However, that doesn't mean that everything Old Nan says is the absolute truth and doesn't exaggerate a bit (She calls wildlings cruel men, slavers, etc, but we see they aren't that different from people south of the Wall. Sure they have their thieves, murderers, and rapers but it's not like south of the Wall isn't full of them either. The NW surely has their pick of criminals).

....

Red eyes for Lannister red? The gargoyles seem to represent the Lannisters with the mention of them being lions and whispering, but I'm not sure about the "glowing hot as coals" though. We have Shaggydog with burning green eyes, and now the gargoyles with red eyes hot as coal.

It could be the Lannister red, I suppose. Or maybe it's a clue that C&J are secret Targaryens :P :leaving:

...

The Long Night lasted a generation. How long is a Westerosi generation? 70 years?

...

I think 'generation' means roughly the time needed for the kids to grow up and start a family themselves (I might be mistaken, though). Boys become men at 16, so I don't think any shorter, but people do seem to marry at very young ages, so it's possible that it isn't too much longer either. Maybe ~20 years?

I thought in some more detail about the Last Hero story, but I've been sort of busy lately, so didn't have much time to spend on it.

The Others:

Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.

- this might be the only time someone outside the Watch/wildlings uses this term... when Bran asks if she means the Others , she agrees

- 'long night' vs 'Long Night' - what's the significance, if any? Were there more 'long nights'?

“Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels.

This passage gives the impression of a long night, as part of an even longer winter (rather than a long winter that is also mostly dark).

“In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things (1), that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins(2). They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain (3). All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests (4), and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children (5).”

(1) Martin dispelled this notion with his instructions to a certain graphic artist:

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'

(2) iron: see Will's comfort in his iron blade... it's effectiveness is not clear, though - they might hate it, but they seem to be well equipped to defend themselves against it.

fire:again, not clear - effective against wights, but the WW don't seem to care much and possibly even can put fires out.

sun: they don't come out during the day, although they can still lurk around and watch.

hot blood: well, Martin did say in an interview "they don't like us much"... but apart from that, it's far from obvious. They certainly seem to get along well with Craster.

(3) this indeed seems to be what they're doing (that is when they're not hunting in small packs...) - we'll get to verify it (or not) as we progress.

(4) see also: Wild Hunt; Ramsay Bolton

(5) again this is something to watch out for. We see that wights are rather bloodthirsty, and I recall Varamyr saying how the baby smelled extra nice when his pack was hunting down that wildling family, so maybe they smell extra nice for wigths as well... And there's a matter of Craster's sacrifices, of course.

CotF:

“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch.

- timeline: was the Long Night definitely post-Pact?

The Last Hero

So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—”

- why were the children so hard to find?

- how come it took years for the Others to 'smell' him?

- if Bran the Builder might only be a legend (although, he still could have been a real Stark, just not the one to build the Wall), what does that say about the Last Hero?

[Melifeather]

Maester Luwin muttered, "So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea."

So, Maester Luwin seems to be saying that the Pact endured until the Andals came.

[nanother]

Thanks, Feather, so the Long Night was definitely after the Pact.

[Melifeather]

It would seem so.

The Long Night lasted a generation, but it is my opinion that there have been other long nights/winters, based on Old Nan's phrasing, "when the Others came for the first time"...but they hadn't come in significant numbers like what came during that signature Long Night, and not like what they are assembling for this winter either. If extended summers indicate longer winters then apparently the White Walkers are anticipating an extra long winter. Although, how long was this last summer?

11 years? Certainly not a generation.

I too am expecting a big reveal in the crypts, and there must also be a reason why Mance and Melisandre want Jon to go there. If my theory about the Starks reigning in death and that the iron swords keep them in their tombs, then Jon is destined to rise as a King of Winter, but Mance and Melisandre want to keep him from rising. This is all just my speculation, but it makes the most sense to me right now. If there is a portal in the crypts, it's keeping the dead Starks in the spirit world.