Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[nanother]

One of the items that has been discussed recently in Heresy is that the CoTF cave (and similar underground dwellings) may have a modifying effect on time. When one enters for a day; they may actually exit several years (100's???) in the future. This quote by BR gives credance to the notion that plugging into the Weirwood allows the greenseer the ability to navigate those mists (memories) and seas of shadow (future).

Yes, it's exactly in that context BR says this, when Bran first glimpsed his father through the eyes of the heart tree.

Also, from another skipped Ned chapter:

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

Eddard Stark jerked upright, his heart racing, the blankets tangled around him. The room was black as pitch, and someone was hammering on the door. “Lord Eddard,” a voice called loudly.

Jon is not the only one dreaming about the crypts...

[Mace Cooterian]

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

Eddard Stark jerked upright, his heart racing, the blankets tangled around him. The room was black as pitch, and someone was hammering on the door. “Lord Eddard,” a voice called loudly.

So in this situation Eddard is dreaming of the crypts. When the voice calls out "Lord Eddard"; from whom do you think this originates?

The reason for my question is the reference to Jon not being the only one to dream of the crypts. This is a curve ball to me. And sorry, but I'm a left handed person so I spend most of my time in the right side of my brain. Which, BTW, does not make me always right. :cool4:

[nanother]

Sorry, should have given the context in the first place. It's when Robert returned from the hunt, mortally wounded. Not sure now who was calling him - one of his men, trying to wake him up because the king wanted to see him.

ETA: it was Fat Tom

[nanother]

Jon VI

The Wall:

The day was warm and sunny. Rivulets of water trickled down the sides of the Wall, so the ice seemed to sparkle and shine.

Outside, Jon looked up at the Wall shining in the sun, the melting ice creeping down its side in a hundred thin fingers. Jon’s rage was such that he would have smashed it all in an instant, and the world be damned.

The Wall had no gates as such, neither here at Castle Black nor anywhere along its three hundred miles. They led their horses down a narrow tunnel cut through the ice, cold dark walls pressing in around them as the passage twisted and turned. Three times their way was blocked by iron bars, and they had to stop while Bowen Marsh drew out his keys and unlocked the massive chains that secured them. Jon could sense the vast weight pressing down on him as he waited behind the Lord Steward. The air was colder than a tomb, and more still. He felt a strange relief when they reemerged into the afternoon light on the north side of the Wall.

Black blood(?):

Some of you bear the names of proud houses. Others have only bastards’ names, or no names at all. It makes no matter. All that is past now. On the Wall, we are all one house.

...

Your crimes will be washed away, your debts forgiven. So too you must wash away your former loyalties, put aside your grudges, forget old wrongs and old loves alike. Here you begin anew.

So is "black blood" only a poetic way of expressing this sentiment, or was there actual blood magic involved at some point?

A man of the Night’s Watch lives his life for the realm. Not for a king, nor a lord, nor the honor of this house or that house, neither for gold nor glory nor a woman’s love, but for the realm, and all the people in it.

The Old Gods:

The gods of the sept had nothing to do with him; the blood of the First Men flowed in the veins of the Starks.

Much is made of the phrase "gods of the First Men and the Starks". I think this sentence pretty much explains what is meant by that (and, as far as I can remember, this is the only wording ever used): the Starks are descendants of the First Men, carry on much of their legacy, but no longer identify with them. I suppose they stopped being 'First Men' at some point between their making peace with the Andals and abandoning the Old Tongue.

“Castle Black has no need of a godswood. Beyond the Wall the haunted forest stands as it stood in the Dawn Age, long before the Andals brought the Seven across the narrow sea. You will find a grove of weirwoods half a league from this spot, and mayhap your gods as well.”

Having to go out into enemy territory every time you want to pray doesn't seem like a good idea. I guess CB might have been built after the Others stopped being an apparent threat. Or, possibly, they were never a threat to the Black Brothers (at least the ones saying the words in front of a weirwood) - if there was a pact at the end of the Long Night, that could be part of it.

But even then, did the wildlings really never bother them? Back when more brothers followed the Old Gods, I'd think some of them would want to go out to pray and they surely couldn't always have an escort with them...

The haunted forest:

Perhaps it was all in the knowing. They had ridden past the end of the world; somehow that changed everything. Every shadow seemed darker, every sound more ominous. The trees pressed close and shut out the light of the setting sun. A thin crust of snow cracked beneath the hooves of their horses, with a sound like breaking bones. When the wind set the leaves to rustling, it was like a chilly finger tracing a path up Jon’s spine. The Wall was at their backs, and only the gods knew what lay ahead.

The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle. Jon drew in a breath, and he saw Sam Tarly staring. Even in the wolfswood, you never found more than two or three of the white trees growing together; a grove of nine was unheard of. The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath. The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby. Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. “This is a sacred place, we will not defile it.”

When they entered the grove, Samwell Tarly turned slowly looking at each face in turn. No two were quite alike. “They’re watching us,” he whispered. “The old gods.”

“Yes.” Jon knelt, and Sam knelt beside him.

-- chilly fingers up his spine - Bran had the same feeling last time we heard of him, I believe about the Lannisters

-- nine weirwoods - the number might or might not be significant. The only other grove of know size I recall is High Heart - 31 stumps there. Both seem kind of 'magical' numbers. If there are any more, I expect we'll come across them as we proceed.

-- are they planted in circles, or do they just grow that way? fairy ring?

-- this is in contrast with the heart trees - apparently always one single weirwood; are those planted, then?

I guess if the wolfswood has twos and threes at most, then solitary trees might be the default.

-- bones and rubies - Martin plays around with these a lot. The weirwood colors (and those of Ghost, as Jon observes later on): bone/snow, blood/fire/rubies. Also, the bones/trees remember. I wonder where he's going with all that.

The wow:

They said the words together, as the last light faded in the west and grey day became black night.

“Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow,” they recited, their voices filling the twilit grove. “Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.”

The woods fell silent. “You knelt as boys,” Bowen Marsh intoned solemnly. “Rise now as men of the Night’s Watch.”

Of course, it's timed like that on purpose:

At evenfall, as the sun sets and we face the gathering night, you shall take your vows.

As for the words:

It was observed that it has a slightly Rh'lloristic flavour. That might be just coincidence or red herring, as it's difficult to come up with a plausible way for the influence to spread in either direction. I confess I don't remember the Heretic theories about this (probably because I didn't find any of them convincing) - some combination of the Watch (in its present form) being a creation of Andals and the religion of the Seven having developed from the same root as Rh'llorism?

There are also theories that the Last Hero is Azor Ahai and/or Lightbringer is the Night's Watch (was that ever discussed in Heresies?) - not sure how those theories explain why he has such a huge cult in Essos, but is almost forgotten in Westeros, though.

-- sword in the darkness: the two are seemingly disconnected, unlike all other pairings... however, against an enemy in the darkness, I guess you do need a sword in the darkness. But it could also imply that it's darkness itself it's meant to fight. Also, with all the talk about burning swords, I can help but visualize one when reading this line.

-- watcher on the walls, horn that wakes the sleepers, shield that guards the realms of men: apart from the mistifying plural in walls, these seem trivial functions of a watch. Of course, there's that other horn, of Joramun, that wakes giants from the earth...

-- fire that burns against the cold - fire, especially nightfires are central to Rh'llorism... but then, it's also and obvious defense against cold. And it's mentioned in relation to cold, rather than night/darkness. I wonder what aspect of the Watch it stands for, though. I guess, they do try to hold back the Cold Lot, so it might be just that.

-- light that brings the dawn - light...bring...er, also war for the dawn from the prophecies; but there was already a 'battle for the dawn' according to the songs (or perhaps more than one)

Smell:

When they set out:

Ghost’s head lifted. He seemed to taste the air. In the blink of an eye he was off, racing across the broad, weed-choked field to vanish in the trees.

When they're done:

“Best we be starting back, m’lord,” he said to Bowen Marsh. “Dark’s falling, and there’s something in the smell o’ the night that I mislike.”

I wonder if they felt the same thing...

And just when Dywen says that, Ghost appears with the hand:

And suddenly Ghost was back, stalking softly between two weirwoods. White fur and red eyes, Jon realized, disquieted. Like the trees …

The wolf had something in his jaws. Something black. “What’s he got there?” asked Bowen Marsh, frowning.

“To me, Ghost.” Jon knelt. “Bring it here.”

The direwolf trotted to him. Jon heard Samwell Tarly’s sharp intake of breath.

“Gods be good,” Dywen muttered. “That’s a hand.”

[Melifeather]

I was going to copy and paste from this website listing all the symbolism and significance of the number 9, but it's just too long of a list. If you'd like to read it all you may do so here: http://www.ridingthebeast.com/numbers/nu9.php

[Frey family reunion]

I was going to copy and paste from this website listing all the symbolism and significance of the number 9, but it's just too long of a list. If you'd like to read it all you may do so here: http://www.ridingthe...numbers/nu9.php

Good list but it left out the significance of the number 9 in the mythology with the strongest influence to the series outside of the Celtic, the Norse Mythology: (from Wiki):Nine

The number nine is also a significant number:

• When Odin sacrificed himself to himself, he hung upside down as the hanged man upon the gallows of Yggdrasil for nine days and nights. In return, he secured from the Well of Wyrd eighteen (twice nine) charms or runes.
  
• The Norse cosmology knows nine worlds that are supported by Yggdrasil.
  
• At the end of Skáldskaparmál is a list of nine heavenly realms provided by Snorri, including, from the nethermost to the highest, Vindblain (also Heidthornir or Hregg-Mimir), Andlang, Vidblain, Vidfedmir, Hrjod, Hlyrnir, Gimir, Vet-Mimir and Skatyrnir which "stands higher than the clouds, beyond all worlds."
  
• Every ninth year, people from all over Sweden assembled at the Temple at Uppsala. There was feasting for nine days and sacrifices of both men and male animals according to Adam of Bremen.
  
• In Skírnismál, Freyr is obliged to wait nine nights to consummate his union with Gerd.
  
• In Svipdagsmál, the witch Gróa grants nine charms to her son Svipdag. In the same poem there are nine maidens who sit at the knees of Menglod.
  
• In Fjölsvinnsmál, Laegjarn's chest is fastened with nine locks.
  
• During Ragnarök, Thor kills Jörmungandr but staggers back nine steps before falling dead himself, poisoned by the venom that the Serpent spewed over him.
  
• According to the very late Trollkyrka poem, the fire for the blót was lit with nine kinds of wood.
  
• Odin's ring Draupnir releases eight golden drops every ninth night, forming rings of equal worth for a total of nine rings.
  
• In the guise of Grímnir in the poem Grímnismál, Odin allows himself to be held by King Geirröd for eight days and nights and kills him on the ninth after revealing his true identity.
  
• There are nine daughters of Ægir.
  
• There are nine mothers of Heimdall.
  
• The god Hermod rode Sleipnir for nine nights on his quest to free Baldr from the underworld.
  
• The giant Baugi had nine thralls who killed each other in their desire to possess Odin's magical sharpening stone.
  
• The god Njord and his wife Skadi decided to settle their argument over where to live by agreeing to spend nine nights in Thrymheim and nine nights at Nóatún.
  
• The giant Thrivaldi has nine heads.
  
• The clay giant Mokkurkalfi measured nine leagues high and three broad beneath the arms.
  
• The valknut symbol is three interlocking triangles forming nine points.
  
• There are nine surviving deities of Ragnarök, including Baldr and Hödr, Magni and Modi, Vidar and Váli, Hoenir, the daughter of Sól and a ninth "powerful, mighty one, he who rules over everything".^[2]
  

[nanother]

Thanks guys, interesting stuff.

[DrunkSister]

Hi, can I join the reread? I participated a bit in Tyrion reread and in PtP Sansa threads but not from the beginning and these rereads did not take all the POVs into account. I am not a heretic bc. those 'almost fifty' threads seem very daunting indeed but I would like to learn more about this heresy of yours. I am a history student from Serbia (which means that my cultural heritage and knowledge might compliment your own) and a feminist (though not very well versed in talking about politics in English).

@nanother

Taking ice blocks all the way from the lake to build the Wall might seem implausible but stones from Stonehenge have traveled very far indeed and AFAIK our ancestors didn't have magic to help them. :P

LC Mormont said:

A man of the Night’s Watch lives his life for the realm. Not for a king, nor a lord, nor the honor of this house or that house, neither for gold nor glory nor a woman’s love, but for the realm, and all the people in it.

This is actually not true!

It is certain that this is a modification of their understanding of NW purpose post Aegon the Conqueror. Before that, there was no one king, nor one realm! They protected the Realms of Men just like they recite in their vows and that means that they would have protected the wildlings as well, since they are also men.

NW has forgotten this, they no longer believe in White Walkers believing them a myth, so they have misinterpreted their vows to mean that they protect the Realm against the wildlings. NW has turned into a kinslaying institution.

Without this, kings beyond the Wall would be perfectly acceptable (as we see with Joramun); wildlings would not have to cross in secret in order to raid, they would simply pass through/sail around; the people beyond the wall would not have to fight a desperate battle against the NW to be able to pass beyond the wall to run away from WW; there would be no big deal with weirwood grove being beyond the Wall because they were all one people...

There are several issues here:

• the loss of purpose and lore within the NW;
  
• the misinterpretation of their vows leading to 'Other-ising' the wildlings;
  
• the decline of the numbers;
  
• [why isn't there more gay sex in an all-men institution?! Well, ok, this just bugs me, but maybe it is significant]
  
• the loss of lore and magic among the Starks - when, how, why, is it connected with the Wall, with them no longer being the Kings of Winter, with advance of maesters etc.
  
• what happened with the cooperation between CotF and NW etc.
  

That one sentence demonstrates a lot of what is wrong with NW. I wonder how reading further and connecting the dots would help us know more.

*NW almost certainly precedes the Wall because it is not mentioned in their vows, they are 'watchers on the walls'. So the moment NW became exclusively connected with the Wall signified the 'first crack', the second one was constraining NW brothers to only those who have forsworn land, marriage, titles, children - Sam passes through the mouth-door only by saying "I am..." part of the vow.

Without this addition I wonder what happens to death penalty for desertion? If a man marries or wears a read cloak, well ok, he's still our brother, the watcher, shield, horn etc. and there is no big deal. Old gods never punish Mance!

** Wildlings have oral history which in our world is reshaped by every generation and very quickly passes into legend and myth (and those are not guided by what has happened but by our own psychology). So, what they say of 'kneelers' might be a late addition in reaction to being marginalized and painted as evil.

[nanother]

Hi, can I join the reread? I participated a bit in Tyrion reread and in PtP Sansa threads but not from the beginning and these rereads did not take all the POVs into account. I am not a heretic bc. those 'almost fifty' threads seem very daunting indeed but I would like to learn more about this heresy of yours. I am a history student from Serbia (which means that my cultural heritage and knowledge might compliment your own) and a feminist (though not very well versed in talking about politics in English).

Awesome! I know what you mean about the Heresy threads. It's really gotten out of hand lately, difficult enough to follow just the current one :D Are you into Slavic mythlogy by any chance? I saw people referring to it in other threads, and some of the parallels seemed to fit really well.

It is certain that this is a modification of their understanding of NW purpose post Aegon the Conqueror. Before that, there was no one king, nor one realm! They protected the Realms of Men just like they recite in their vows and that means that they would have protected the wildlings as well, since they are also men.

NW has forgotten this, they no longer believe in White Walkers believing them a myth, so they have misinterpreted their vows to mean that they protect the Realm against the wildlings. NW has turned into a kinslaying institution.

I agree that the perception changed slightly with Aegon and the merging of the Seven Kingdms, but I think the change you're talking about happened long before that. Joramun is confusing, because we have one account of him allying with the Stark in Winterfell against the Night's King, and then another one listing him among the wildling kings who tried to invade but were stopped by either the Wall or the Starks. But even not counting him, there were the brothers Gendel of Gorne who supposedly lived 3000 years before (I think! too tired to look it up...i) and apparently the conflict with the wildlings was already well-established then.

*NW almost certainly precedes the Wall because it is not mentioned in their vows, they are 'watchers on the walls'. So the moment NW became exclusively connected with the Wall signified the 'first crack', the second one was constraining NW brothers to only those who have forsworn land, marriage, titles, children - Sam passes through the mouth-door only by saying "I am..." part of the vow.

Without this addition I wonder what happens to death penalty for desertion? If a man marries or wears a read cloak, well ok, he's still our brother, the watcher, shield, horn etc. and there is no big deal. Old gods never punish Mance!

Thanks for bringing that up. The possibility that the wow got expanded from the initial bit that was required for the Black Gate was discussed in Heresies. There are various theories about the Night's King being the last King of Winter and/or an Andal takeover. I guess the pedestrian explanation would be that the NW men were causing trouble fighting for their own causes (which is all the more likely to happen when there's no real enemy in sight; and we know it did happen) and they 'tweaked' it gradually in response.

As for the NW predating the Wall, yes... could have been founded during the Long Night while the Wall was built sometime after... also, there's a SSM stating that the Wall took hundreds of years to complete - if that's indeed the case, they would have existed for quite a long time without a complete Wall. But as soon as the Wall came into existence, I can't see what other walls would there be to watch from...

[DrunkSister]

Unfortunately, Slavic mythology when it comes to Southern Slavs is largely matter of prehistory and archaeology, not history and historical sources. I could look into it but it will take time.

When it comes to 'history of Westeros' I doubt everything.

Perhaps I am hyper-critical but I have read Titus Livius' Ab Urbe Condita and he is writing annales and giving us names of consuls for every year and yet we know that he was changing it and making it up as he went along, and that his sources did the same and everything is in question (I am oversimplifying). We might be hammering out the real lists now, comparing and contrasting and using inscriptions and archaeology but I don't believe that a maester in NW can do it.

Then we have Homer: he gave us epics that describe Trojan war but even his name means 'poet', his place of origin is contested (it is said that six cities boasted that he came from them but even this is only because 6 fit in hexameter, there are several lists) AND NO WAY WAS HE BLIND, maybe as an old man, but NO, NO, NOPE. Basically, sack of Illion happened and a poet sang several epics about it. Everything else is up in the air.

We know now a lot about the Bronze Age collapse and the sack of Illion but not from Homer.

Now, this has to do with Westeros because:

• NW oath is a most definitely a translation of the old oath, and quite possibly a very extensive reworking of said oath;
  
• That list of lord commanders is suspect in more than one way;
  
• Their histories are all Andal reconstructions adding their own spin on them and re-framing them to fit their own values, notions and society (knights before there were knights etc.);
  

What I would like to do is evaluate every scrap of information we get in the rereads from a historian's standpoint, as I would in real life historical sources, and to provide parallels to real world history whenever I can think of them. Since Martin is writing fantasy my approach has limited usefulness but I would like to push that limit as far as it can go.

I have shown with Mormont's remark about the (one single) realm that he is wrong and that NW originally didn't protect one realm. From that I have drawn various possibilities of how it might have been. I wonder if additional information as it comes would make the puzzle more complete.

I agree that the perception changed slightly with Aegon and the merging of the Seven Kingdms, but I think the change you're talking about happened long before that. Joramun is confusing, because we have one account of him allying with the Stark in Winterfell against the Night's King, and then another one listing him among the wildling kings who tried to invade but were stopped by either the Wall or the Starks. But even not counting him, there were the brothers Gendel of Gorne who supposedly lived 3000 years before (I think! too tired to look it up...i) and apparently the conflict with the wildlings was already well-established then.

*****

As for the NW predating the Wall, yes... could have been founded during the Long Night while the Wall was built sometime after... also, there's a SSM stating that the Wall took hundreds of years to complete - if that's indeed the case, they would have existed for quite a long time without a complete Wall. But as soon as the Wall came into existence, I can't see what other walls would there be to watch from...

I agree that the change must have happened before Aegon, but the understanding of NW purpose would have also changed in some ways post-Conquest. I think that there was change with every regime.

I don't see any problem with Joramun and King of Winter being allies in one case and opponents in another case. Perfectly normal behavior. :D

As for other wildling kings, lets leave them for the time we reach them in the reread. I think going into them now would be going too far into future chapters.

As far as I understand history of the NW: there was no NW during the Long Night (according to Old Nan), then there were watchers on the walls (according to their vow), then the Wall was being built (for centuries: SSM and common sense), and Complete Wall NW.

Somewhere in that long history Andals came, the vow was possibly reworked to include 'no wife, no children, no lands' part, maybe there were other Long Nights (that got mixed up with the original one? :dunno: ), COTF stopped cooperating, division between 'kneelers' and wildlings was created.

Have I forgotten anything important?

[nanother]

Unfortunately, Slavic mythology when it comes to Southern Slavs is largely matter of prehistory and archaeology, not history and historical sources. I could look into it but it will take time.

Don't worry too much about it, unless it's something you're interested in anyway.

When it comes to 'history of Westeros' I doubt everything.

Yes, that's pretty much the Heretic standpoint :D It'll be great to have a 'real' historian's perspective on Westeros.

Now, this has to do with Westeros because:

• NW oath is a most definitely a translation of the old oath, and quite possibly a very extensive reworking of said oath;
  
• That list of lord commanders is suspect in more than one way;
  
• Their histories are all Andal reconstructions adding their own spin on them and re-framing them to fit their own values, notions and society (knights before there were knights etc.);
  

What I would like to do is evaluate every scrap of information we get in the rereads from a historian's standpoint, as I would in real life historical sources, and to provide parallels to real world history whenever I can think of them. Since Martin is writing fantasy my approach has limited usefulness but I would like to push that limit as far as it can go.

I like the sound of that.

As you say, it's best to discuss details as they come up (both about wildling kings and Watch history in general), and anyway, I should be working on the next chapter summary.

The one thing that bugs me most about the NW, and does come up in the next chapter, that their supposed 'enemy' is thought to have disappeared just as the Watch was founded (ok, that all probably took up a few hundred years in reality). Yet, an initially large number of kingdoms seemingly made a joint effort to maintain and even expand the organisation. Throughout thousands of years. Yes, it's kind of useful against the wildlings, but that doesn't really affect the southern kingdoms. Yes, it's kind of handy as a penal colony, but that manpower could be put to more obviously useful tasks. So, why bother with it?

[Frey family reunion]

The one thing that bugs me most about the NW, and does come up in the next chapter, that their supposed 'enemy' is thought to have disappeared just as the Watch was founded (ok, that all probably took up a few hundred years in reality). Yet, an initially large number of kingdoms seemingly made a joint effort to maintain and even expand the organisation. Throughout thousands of years. Yes, it's kind of useful against the wildlings, but that doesn't really affect the southern kingdoms. Yes, it's kind of handy as a penal colony, but that manpower could be put to more obviously useful tasks. So, why bother with it?

Apparently the previous long night left quite a lasting impression, at least for the northern lords. As for the Southern lords, don't discount the power of tradition. As far as they are concerned there has always been a Nights Watch in Westeros and that in and of itself probably gives the organization a certain amount of mystique and respect. You could also question the practicality of the feudal system as a whole, especially when it gives the realm such rulers as Joffrey, Sweet Robin, and Aerys. However, it's so steeped in tradition and acceptance that it also creates a kind of inertia that allows it to continue. (It probably doesn't hurt that any attempts to question it meet a fairly ugly fate, see House Darklyn).

[Mace Cooterian]

You could also question the practicality of the feudal system as a whole, especially when it gives the realm such rulers as Joffrey, Sweet Robin, and Aerys.

I get the reference to Jeofrrey and Aerys. But Sweet Robin (assuming you meant Sansa Stark)...could you please expalin???

[Frey family reunion]

I get the reference to Jeofrrey and Aerys. But Sweet Robin (assuming you meant Sansa Stark)...could you please expalin???

Under Westeros' feudal system that freak show is supposed to rule when he comes of age.

[Black Crow]

Hi, can I join the reread? I participated a bit in Tyrion reread and in PtP Sansa threads but not from the beginning and these rereads did not take all the POVs into account. I am not a heretic bc. those 'almost fifty' threads seem very daunting indeed but I would like to learn more about this heresy of yours. I am a history student from Serbia (which means that my cultural heritage and knowledge might compliment your own) and a feminist (though not very well versed in talking about politics in English).

Heresy is certainly calling to you, but please don't be daunted that we're currently on version 48 and likely to be on the 49er by tomorrow. It is very fast moving at the moment but from your resume you will fit right in as these are the very questions which we debate and you'll soon get into the swing - speaking as a historian myself.

As to being "not very well versed in talking about politics in English" you seem to be doing pretty well to me.

We look forward to seeing you over there.

[Melifeather]

Hi, can I join the reread?

Welcome to the re-read Heresy thread! You've supplied some fresh ideas, at least to me, regarding the oath of the Night's Watch. I look forward to reading your thoughts as they come up!

I have been participating on the Heresy threads since probably Heresy 20 and it got away from me. I didn't finish 47 and I haven't even read 48. Too much...too fast...

[nanother]

Will respond to posts sometime later; for now here's the next chapter... I think I wanted to add some things and trim some others, but seeing that I didn't get around doing it during the past few days, I guess I'll just post it as it is...

Jon VII

The dream:

It is only a wood, Jon told himself, and they're only dead men. He had seen dead men before...;

Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he’d heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold black graves, Jon had woken in pitch-dark, his heart hammering. Even when Ghost leapt up on the bed to nuzzle at his face, he could not shake his deep sense of terror. He dared not go back to sleep. Instead he had climbed the Wall and walked, restless, until he saw the light of the dawn off to the east. It was only a dream. I am a brother of the Night's Watch now, not a frightened boy.

-- only dead men... he-he...

-- crypt dream: this time he actually enters the crypt, but wakes in terror when the dead Kings of Winter are coming out of their graves. Even though previously he declared it wasn't them he was afraid of.

The corpses:

The horses and especially the dogs don't go anywhere near the corpses; none of the animals do, including worms and maggots, as Sam later points out, except Ghost who lead them there. Too bad Mormont's raven is not with them. The rangers assume they're fresh because they don't smell, but Sam points out that's not the case.

His flesh was blanched white as milk, everywhere but his hands. His hands were black like Jafer's. Blossoms of hard cracked blood decorated the mortal wounds that covered him like a rash, breast and groin and throat. Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires.

Jon saw at once what Sam meant. He could see the torn veins in the dead man's wrist, iron worms in the pale flesh. His blood was a black dust.

Sam is also the one to point out the evidence that they weren't killed there.

"Might be someone brought 'em and left 'em for us. A warning, as like." The old forester peered down suspiciously. "And might be I'm a fool, but I don't know that Othor never had no blue eyes afore.";

Ser Jaremy looked startled. "Neither did Flowers," he blurted, turning to stare at the dead man.

A silence fell over the wood. For a moment all they heard was Sam's heavy breathing and the wet sound of Dywen sucking on his teeth. Jon squatted beside Ghost.

"Burn them," someone whispered. One of the rangers; Jon could not have said who. "Yes, burn them," a second voice urged.

Is Dywen right? Is it a warning? By whom? Or an assassination attempt? Or the wights following their own impulses?

Mormont rounded on him. "So you believe this is Mance Rayder's work? This close to the Wall?"

"Who else, my lord?"

Jon could have told him. He knew, they all knew, yet no man of them would say the words. The Others are only a story, a tale to make children shiver. If they ever lived at all, they are gone eight thousand years. Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night's Watch, not the boy who'd once sat at Old Nan's feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

The Old Bear is not satisfied with the explanation either.

The weather:

The morning was unnaturally warm; beads of sweat dotted the Lord Commander’s broad forehead like dew on a melon.

The day was grey, damp, overcast, the sort of day that made you wish for rain. No wind stirred the wood; the air hung humid and heavy, and Jon's clothes clung to his skin. It was warm. Too warm. The Wall was weeping copiously, had been weeping for days, and sometimes Jon even imagined it was shrinking.

The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving up its ghosts at last. After this the cold would come, they warned, and a long summer always meant a long winter. This summer had lasted ten years. Jon had been a babe in arms when it began.

What? Does a 5 yr old still count as babe in arms or is he just exaggerating?

Later on, after he gets the news:

They know, Jon realized. "My father is no traitor" he said hoarsely. Even the words stuck in his throat, as if to choke him. The wind was rising, and it seemed colder in the yard than it had when he'd gone in. Spirit summer was drawing to an end.

Even later:

A north wind had begun to blow by the time the sun went down. Jon could hear it skirling against the Wall and over the icy battlements as he went to the common hall for the evening meal.

And when the dead walk:

When had it gotten so cold?

There's an interesting set of coincidences here:

• the change in Jon's crypt dream coincides with his NW wow and the finding of the hand; in terms of Ned's storyline, it's some time after he was betrayed, and just before the news reach CB, but can't seem to be connected to any remarkable single event otherwise.
  
• the change in the weather mirrors Jon's emotinal state on the one hand, but on the other hand it coincides with the arrival of the two wights in CB. It's been unnaturally warm for the past few days, but as soon as they're past the wall, it gets colder and the wind starts rising (well, there was also some wind the day they took the wows, but it was still warm).
  

Old Nan:

Unbidden, he thought back on the tales that Old Nan used to tell them, when he was a boy at Winterfell. He could almost hear her voice again, and the click-click-click of her needles. In that darkness, the Others came riding, she used to say, dropping her voice lower and lower. Cold and dead they were, and they hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every living creature with hot blood in its veins. Holdfasts and cities and kingdoms of men all fell before them, as they moved south on pale dead horses, leading hosts of the slain. They fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children...

The same story she told Bran, using almost the exact same words (the sequence is a bit jumbled, but perhaps Jon's recollection isn't that accurate).

The dead:

The dead men were carried to one of the storerooms along the base of the Wall, a dark cold cell chiseled from the ice and used to keep meat and grain and sometimes even beer.

Is that the same store rooms Jon puts his dead men later?

Ghost is warning him and later leading him to the wight.

Ghost stood on his hind legs, scrabbling at the door. Jon was startled to see how tall he'd grown. "Ghost, what is it?" he called softly. The direwolf turned his head and looked down at him, baring his fangs in a silent snarl. Has he gone mad? Jon wondered. "It's me, Ghost," he murmured, trying not to sound afraid. Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?

Fear and cold, same as Will& co felt back in the prologue.

Suddenly he heard the shriek of Mormont's raven. "Corn," the bird was screaming. "Corn, corn, corn, corn, corn, corn." Ghost bounded ahead, and Jon came scrambling after. The door to Mormont's solar was wide open. The direwolf plunged through. Jon stopped in the doorway, blade in hand, giving his eyes a moment to adjust. Heavy drapes had been pulled across the windows, and the darkness was black as ink. "Who's there?" he called out.

Then he saw it, a shadow in the shadows, sliding toward the inner door that led to Mormont's sleeping cell, a man-shape all in black, cloaked and hooded ... but beneath the hood, its eyes shone with an icy blue radiance

Jon felt as blind as Maester Aemon. Keeping the wall to his back, he slid toward the window and ripped down the curtain. Moonlight flooded the solar. He glimpsed black hands buried in white fur, swollen dark fingers tightening around his direwolf’s throat. Ghost was twisting and snapping, legs flailing in the air, but he could not break free.

Jon had no time to be afraid. He threw himself forward, shouting, bringing down the longsword with all his weight behind it. Steel sheared through sleeve and skin and bone, yet the sound was wrong somehow. The smell that engulfed him was so queer and cold he almost gagged. He saw arm and hand on the floor, black fingers wriggling in a pool of moonlight. Ghost wrenched free of the other hand and crept away, red tongue lolling from his mouth.

The hooded man lifted his pale moon face, and Jon slashed at it without hesitation. The sword laid the intruder open to the bone, taking off half his nose and opening a gash cheek to cheek under those eyes, eyes, eyes like blue stars burning. Jon knew that face. Othor, he thought, reeling back. Gods, he's dead, he's dead, I saw him dead.

The behaviour of the wights and the time of their awakening is much discussed while trying to figure out how they're created/controlled.

-- they get near the Wall, but not all the way there. Once in place, they 'wait' there until they're found and collected

-- once inside, they conveniently wait till mostly everyone's asleep and Othor can get relatively unhindered to the LC (the other one is discussed in the next Jon chapter, too lazy to look up)

-- could their waking be connected to the moonlight? So far, there was half moon in the prologue and there was no mention of the moon the night before (but the night before that it was full moon, or close enough)

Also, they're carried past the Wall, that is supposedly warded against the Others. Possible answers:

• they're 'invited', therefore can pass the wards
  
• the wards have holes in them where the gates were cut
  
• it has to do with them being in a dormant state
  
• the Wall doesn't work as everyone thinks, the Others and wights can pass as they please
  
• I'm sure there's more...
  

When he opened his mouth to scream, the wight jammed its black corpse fingers into Jon's mouth. Gagging, he tried to shove it off, but the dead man was too heavy. Its hand forced itself farther down his throat, icy cold, choking him. Its face was against his own, filling the world. Frost covered its eyes, sparkling blue. Jon raked cold flesh with his nails and kicked at the thing's legs. He tried to bite, tried to punch, tried to breathe...

And suddenly the corpse's weight was gone, its fingers ripped from his throat. It was all Jon could do to roll over, retching and shaking. Ghost had it again. He watched as the direwolf buried his teeth in the wight's gut and began to rip and tear.

Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear's fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. "Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"

...

The direwolf wrenched free and came to him as the wight struggled to rise, dark snakes spilling from the great wound in its belly. Jon plunged his hand into the flames, grabbed a fistful of the burning drapes, and whipped them at the dead man. Let it burn, he prayed as the cloth smothered the corpse, gods, please, please, let it burn.

This is perhaps the first obvious sign of 'superavian' intelligence in Mormont's raven. Whether it's a protest against the light nearly going out, or a suggestion to burn the wights, connecting the lamp with the word 'burn' is beyound what I'd expect from any bird. Now, whether it's from being warged by Bloodraven, as many think, that's another question. The main argument against that is that the raven's being remarkably unhelpful here. Jon was already going to burn them by the time he said that...

Ghost:

Apart from warning him, he's also his only comfort.

Ghost ran with them for a time and then vanished among the trees. Without the direwolf, Jon felt almost naked. He found himself glancing at every shadow with unease.

The rest of the afternoon passed as if in a dream. Jon could not have said where he walked, what he did, who he spoke with. Ghost was with him, he knew that much. The silent presence of the direwolf gave him comfort. The girls do not even have that much, he thought. Their wolves might have kept them safe, but Lady is dead and Nymeria’s lost, they're all alone.

[nanother]

I nearly forgot that the latest Arya chapter has a bit about the Winterfell crypts:

Fear cuts deeper than swords, the quiet voice inside her whispered. Suddenly Arya remembered the crypts at Winterfell. They were a lot scarier than this place, she told herself. She’d been just a little girl the first time she saw them. Her brother Robb had taken them down, her and Sansa and baby Bran, who’d been no bigger than Rickon was now. They’d only had one candle between them, and Bran’s eyes had gotten as big as saucers as he stared at the stone faces of the Kings of Winter, with their wolves at their feet and their iron swords across their laps.

Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs (1). Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. “There are worse things than spiders and rats,” he whispered. “This is where the dead walk (2).” That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb’s leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. “You stupid,” she told him, “you scared the baby,” but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too.

The memory made Arya smile, and after that the darkness held no more terrors for her. The stableboy was dead, she’d killed him, and if he jumped out at her she’d kill him again. She was going home. Everything would be better once she was home again, safe behind Winterfell’s grey granite walls.

Her footsteps sent soft echoes hurrying ahead of her as Arya plunged deeper into the darkness.

(1) So they only dig deep enough to accommodate the current family members?

(2) Is that foreshadowing?

(3) in more than one way...

Also, FWIW her reaction to the dragon skulls is very different this time:

This time the monsters did not frighten her. They seemed almost old friends. Arya held the candle over her head. With each step she took, the shadows moved against the walls, as if they were turning to watch her pass. “Dragons,” she whispered. She slid Needle out from under her cloak. The slender blade seemed very small and the dragons very big, yet somehow Arya felt better with steel in her hand.

So this time it's the shadows watching her (rather than the eye sockets)

[Melifeather]

I think you made a remarkable observation about how the weather changed after bringing dead Othor and Jafer through the Wall. The White Walkers must have been nearby in order to control their wights.

[nanother]

That's what I'm thinking as well. And also, could they have deliberately 'whithdrawn', to keep the wights still until they're found? Causing the unnatural warm. :unsure: