Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[redriver]

redriver - it's the extreme cold the Others bring/brings them. It is the reason the Wildlings died, they froze in their vicinity and as the rangers are about the area, they feel the cold. As the Others close in on them during the chapter, it gets even colder, the wind is mentioned all the time and then the wind stops as the Other finally comes to shape out of the white shadows Will sees just out of the corner of his eye and then the sentence - It was very cold. It's freezing cold when Others are near. That's what killed the sleeping Wildlings. Maybe the Others weren't even intent on killing them - they were just passing by... and the wildlings just happened to be sleeping near. So, that's how it's possible for them to freeze even though the Wall is weeping and the weather is not that cold, I think...

I'm not even sure I'm clear in my own head what I'm getting at.I think it harks back to the post Black Crow made about some people being more innately tuned into possible threats.

Will and Gared know intuitively that something is very wrong,and their responses are often described in coldness imagery,a coldness Royce doesn't feel until it's too late.

Anyhoo,I have further ideas which are perhaps not for this stage of the reread,so I will visit HQ later with those.

Also,I'm up to my neck in rereads.So,if it's ok I'd like to opt out of presenting chapter analyses,but I'm happy to take part in discussion and perhaps scan chapters not included in this reread,for related Heretic stuff.

[Little Wing]

Ah, I'm actually for the very loose "read a chapter and give your 2 cents" kind of re-read than presenting chapters, but I won't nag about it. I'm in the other re-read as well, so it's partly because of that :laugh: we'll manage, I'm sure...

[nanother]

I think Mormont is reflective of the problems of the Watch as a whole.They have long forgotten their true purpose.

Waymar and the rangers were sent out to track Wildlings because Wildlings are seen as the true enemy.It's actually understandable since the Others have been asleep for 8,000 years.

He doesn't recognize wights when he sees them.However,he does go on to realize what they're up against before his death.

On this line,"It was very cold."It seems very understated to me,and striking for that reason.Earlier Gared had been blaming the Wildling deaths on the cold,whereas Royce had pointed out the Wall was weeping.

So,could this have been fear Gared was feeling? After all,the physical response to cold and fear can be quite similar, goose-flesh,teeth chattering,etc.

So,perhaps Gared and Will were feeling a primeval fear,until the real cold arrived?And Royce eventually noticed it,"Why is it so cold?".

Not sure what you're getting at by fear vs cold - I think Will was upfront about being afraid, and Gared was correct about the cold killing the wildlings. Royce (understandably) didn't account for mysterious beings that can bring cold with themselves...I agree the understated question as Royce finally starts to notice is very poignant.

Lets not beat about the bush on the "predator" behaviour. The White Shadows behaved like Wolves.

I don't know enough about the hunting habits of wolves to decide either way. To me the Others' behaviour looks much more like a kind of social code than simply a hunting strategy, however, I can accept that Will might see emotions and intentions into it that aren't there.

So far, possible explanations (as to the nature and purpose of the confrontation) are:

1. Simple predatory behaviour on the Others' part
   I mostly stated my issues with this theory - why would Martin go out of his way to make it look like a social 'event' for the Others? Why wait for Royce when they had all those wildlings the night before? Also, why reveal themselves? The only reason their 'prey' didn't run away was his own stupidity
   
2. Some sort of trap to lure the rangers there
   The main thing suggesting it is the absence of wights - we'd expect them to be drawn to the rangers; otherwise it seems like a very contrived trap to set, so I don't think this is the case
   
3. A cover-up attempt
   Were they trying to keep away the rangers from the wildlings? Or both the rangers and the wildlings from something else?
   
4. Response to a perceived challenge
   That was my crackpot, more like a subcategory of the previous one
   

Obviously some combination of the above is also possible

[Dogpile]

Sure, I mean, the Watch is surviving, as Mormont tells Tyrion later on, so matters of grooming good leaders and creating seasoned watchmen (heh) out of green boys seems to have become a secondary matter...

I think this is the best interpretation. It's meant as an insight into the current condition of the NW. It's not that Mormont really wants to put a "Green Boy" in command, that's just what he has to work with. Centuries ago the NW Commander would have hundreds of seasoned officers to choose from to lead this kind of ranging. Now, not so much.

The condition of the NW goes along with a more general theme for the whole of Westeros society that things are not as glorious as they once were. Decay and a romantic remembering of way things used to be. In a word Better. Stronger. I wonder if it isn't the current state of weakness that is causing the walkers to arise now. Or would they be rising now anyway?

[nanother]

Anyhoo,I have further ideas which are perhaps not for this stage of the reread,so I will visit HQ later with those.

Also,I'm up to my neck in rereads.So,if it's ok I'd like to opt out of presenting chapter analyses,but I'm happy to take part in discussion and perhaps scan chapters not included in this reread,for related Heretic stuff.

Ah, I'm actually for the very loose "read a chapter and give your 2 cents" kind of re-read than presenting chapters, but I won't nag about it. I'm in the other re-read as well, so it's partly because of that :laugh: we'll manage, I'm sure...

Well, I'm happy to try to post chapter summaries for the next several weeks, because (as far as I can predict) I'll have the time (as long as it stays at ~2 chapters/week) and it helps to organize stuff in my head. But yeah, I find this type of re-read a bit problematic, because information is so scattered across the books, so there's only so much we can gain by analysing a single chapter to death - not sure how to handle that. I suppose jumping ahead (or backwards) should be fair game as long as its somewhat relevant to the current chapter :dunno:

Anyway, reading Bran I now (will write a summary tomorrow morning), and I'm thinking I'll include Cat I as well - those chapters belong together, mostly being different views of the same events

[redriver]

Not sure what you're getting at by fear vs cold - I think Will was upfront about being afraid, and Gared was correct about the cold killing the wildlings. Royce (understandably) didn't account for mysterious beings that can bring cold with themselves...I agree the understated question as Royce finally starts to notice is very poignant.

I don't know enough about the hunting habits of wolves to decide either way. To me the Others' behaviour looks much more like a kind of social code than simply a hunting strategy, however, I can accept that Will might see emotions and intentions into it that aren't there.

So far, possible explanations (as to the nature and purpose of the confrontation) are:

1. Simple predatory behaviour on the Others' part
   I mostly stated my issues with this theory - why would Martin go out of his way to make it look like a social 'event' for the Others? Why wait for Royce when they had all those wildlings the night before? Also, why reveal themselves? The only reason their 'prey' didn't run away was his own stupidity
   
   
2. Some sort of trap to lure the rangers there
   The main thing suggesting it is the absence of wights - we'd expect them to be drawn to the rangers; otherwise it seems like a very contrived trap to set, so I don't think this is the case
   
   
3. A cover-up attempt
   Were they trying to keep away the rangers from the wildlings? Or both the rangers and the wildlings from something else?
   
   
4. Response to a perceived challenge
   That was my crackpot, more like a subcategory of the previous one
   

Obviously some combination of the above is also possible

It's not fear verses cold as such,but that the physiological response to fear is similar to that of cold.The old cliches spring to mind,(his hair stood on end,a chill ran down her spine),that sort of thing.What I'm really suggesting is that the cold that Will and Gared feel in the earlier parts of the prologue is a physical response to the intuitive fear they sense,that Royce doesn't have.

The irony is that the Royce House words,"We remember" is equally as redundant as the generalized "The North Remembers."

There is also the unprovable suggestion here that the Others can affect human emotions.

I would agree that the Others behaviour indicates a hierarchy,which indeed wolf behaviour is based on,but I'm not sure the analogy is entirely accurate.

[Little Wing]

Okay, nanother, thanks! If it's brief summaries, then you can count on me, whenever you can't make it, let me know, we'll work something out :)

I don't think the Others were hunting them specifically, for starters, but as the ranging party went deeper into the woods - maybe they were encroaching and they crossed paths willy-nilly... In short - they were asking for it, coming although the cold was meant to turn them away. But when the Others did appear I have this impression of them going "okay, let's see what these puny creatures want". It was all a joke to them.

But... the stabbing ritual is weird. Is it their first not-by-cold kill after a long time therefore the need to do that little ritual? Although the sword being part of their arm seems silly, if it was so, then they would absorb his blood with them and that's why everyone joined in :dunno: Wasn't it Syrio who told Arya that the steel must be part of her hand? And it being Water Dancer stuff to boot...

ETA: Just saw redriver's post - Yeah, I also like the hive mind notion for their behaviour, but comparing them to wolves is just plain cool... I'm a fan of Others being able to affect human emotions. The cold the rangers feel (Royce too probably, only he doesn't say anything for fear of losing authority or something as silly I imagine) isn't ordinary cold. It stirs emotions and I think it's an ability of the Others to reach out like skinchangers reach out for their familiars. But no proof, as we know so little about the Others...

[nanother]

Yes, I like the idea of the Others affecting human emotions...could that be how one can 'smell cold'?

[Little Wing]

It's almost as if the Others can emit some signal, let's say, that men can pick up on an unconscious level. Outside they feel the strange cold, inside they feel terror. For the night is cold and full of terrors :devil:

It ties back to that hive mind crack pot I like so much. The Others emit this "signal" (I likened it to skinchangers when they reach for their familiar) that makes people emotional around them and scared out of their mind, not to mention cold. But if you're dead - the signal brings you back with a brand new pair of baby-blues. /crackpot

[nanother]

Bran I (+ Cat I), part I

A very intense chapter, featuring Gared's execution and the finding of the direwolf pups. A strange coincidence, that (crackpot: Gared was riding the direwolf :dunno:). I got as far as summarizing the execution, and now I need a break. I'll post part II later, but not for several hours.

The holdfast:

Is in the hills a few (possibly several?) hours of ride from Winterfell. Is that where he usually do the 'king's justice', then? Seems impractical. it took up most of Ned's day together with the cleansing process in the godswood. Do they always ride out to wherever the delinquent is caught? Also seems impractical :dunno: In any case, I don't suppose executions ever happen in the godswood, so if weirwood trees do actually need blood, poor Winterfell heart tree has been starving for a long time... At least Ned cleans his sword there, so it might get a few drops.

Gared:

The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills.

Does it really mean what I think it means, that he was captured outside that holdfast he was chained to? Weird...he was 9 days ride beyond the Wall, plus he had to cross the Wall somehow and he had to get all the way down to near Winterfell. On foot, most likely. That would have taken, like, months (possibly only weeks if he could find a horse).

I mean, making it that far is quite a feat in itself, but he was also scared out of his mind, according to both Jon and Ned.

“No,” Jon Snow said quietly. “It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark.” Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see.

“The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him.”

What scared him so? Will saw Royce butchered and managed to stay relatively calm and collected... And Gared had at least weeks to pull himself together, most of that spent on the safe side of the Wall...

Anyhow, everyone (kind of) agreed that he died well.

Theon:

Thought it was funny to kick Gared's head.

Ass.

:agree:

The blood on the snow:

Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as surnmerwine. One of the horses reared and had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched.

And from the previous chapter:

Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow.

Also, FWIW, the wind: (before and after)

A faint wind blew through the holdfast gate. Over their heads flapped the banner of the Starks of Winterfell: a grey direwolf racing across an ice-white field. Bran’s father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind.

It seemed colder on the long ride back to Winterfell, though the wind had died by then and the sun was higher in the sky.

Bran:

Was unimpressed by the exchange of words before the execution.

There were questions asked and answers given there in the chill of morning, but afterward Bran could not recall much of what had been said.

So I guess it must not have been very interesting. That implies no talk abut the Others - that surely would have piqued Bran's interest...and Ned's recollection in the next chapter doesn't indicate otherwise either. (Jon in a later chapter recalls one of the things that were said: Ned reminded Gared of the NW oath.)

He also introduces us to Old Nan and her tales:

Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall. It made Bran’s skin prickle to think of it. He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

Let's see: consorting the giants is confirmed. Do ghouls even exist? Abducting women is confirmed, right? Not sure about drinking blood...Soooo what does that say about Old Nan's accuracy?

Ned:

he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest

And afterwards, he explains about the need for a lord to do his own killing.

So, clearly, the North is trying very hard to remember, yet fails miserably. Knowledge only passed down from Lord to heir apparent? Anti-magic conspiracy in the Citadel? Or just natural erosion of the traditions?

[Blisscraft]

The irony is that the Royce House words,"We remember" is equally as redundant as the generalized "The North Remembers."

Which begs the question, "What do they remember?"

[Little Wing]

Hm... you do have a point in wondering why Gared was still scared out of his mind and how he got so soon to the Wall and Winterfell... there might be an episode with the Others we'll never get to see. Maybe they got to him, but let him live and maybe even wanted him to take a message to the Starks (or even to take the she direwolf across the Wall :eek: ). In Cat's chapter, Ned says that Gared was talking crazy, so Gared did try to tell Ned something. And the terror he still feels... well, I guess when you're face to face with Others maybe it's better that they off you? Than let you live with the memories... :devil:

I have a crackpot (no wonder...) about why they let Gared live, on borrowed time of course - let's say you saw a glimpse of the future and saw scenes of Ned beheading Gared and finding direwolf pups flash by - you'd let Gared go, and let fate take it's course. Maybe the trees whispered to the Others to let this one go, because if the Starks are not out and about on that fateful day to behead poor Gared - they won't find the pups... Or, the Others were out and about beyond the Wall because they were taking the pregnant she-wolf to the other side, on greenseer orders? Gared took over that task and led her to the other side for them? Tried to tell his story to Ned? :dunno:

What the Starks have forgotten? That they are tied to Winter and to Winterfell in particular much more than they thought? That leaving Winterfell has it's price? Abandoning Winter for southron ways as well?

[redriver]

Bran I (+ Cat I), part I

A very intense chapter, featuring Gared's execution and the finding of the direwolf pups. A strange coincidence, that (crackpot: Gared was riding the direwolf :dunno:). I got as far as summarizing the execution, and now I need a break. I'll post part II later, but not for several hours.

The holdfast:

Is in the hills a few (possibly several?) hours of ride from Winterfell. Is that where he usually do the 'king's justice', then? Seems impractical. it took up most of Ned's day together with the cleansing process in the godswood. Do they always ride out to wherever the delinquent is caught? Also seems impractical :dunno: In any case, I don't suppose executions ever happen in the godswood, so if weirwood trees do actually need blood, poor Winterfell heart tree has been starving for a long time... At least Ned cleans his sword there, so it might get a few drops.

Gared:

Does it really mean what I think it means, that he was captured outside that holdfast he was chained to? Weird...he was 9 days ride beyond the Wall, plus he had to cross the Wall somehow and he had to get all the way down to near Winterfell. On foot, most likely. That would have taken, like, months (possibly only weeks if he could find a horse).

I mean, making it that far is quite a feat in itself, but he was also scared out of his mind, according to both Jon and Ned.

What scared him so? Will saw Royce butchered and managed to stay relatively calm and collected... And Gared had at least weeks to pull himself together, most of that spent on the safe side of the Wall...

Anyhow, everyone (kind of) agreed that he died well.

Theon:

Thought it was funny to kick Gared's head.

:agree:

The blood on the snow:

And from the previous chapter:

Also, FWIW, the wind: (before and after)

Bran:

Was unimpressed by the exchange of words before the execution.

So I guess it must not have been very interesting. That implies no talk abut the Others - that surely would have piqued Bran's interest...and Ned's recollection in the next chapter doesn't indicate otherwise either. (Jon in a later chapter recalls one of the things that were said: Ned reminded Gared of the NW oath.)

He also introduces us to Old Nan and her tales:

Let's see: consorting the giants is confirmed. Do ghouls even exist? Abducting women is confirmed, right? Not sure about drinking blood...Soooo what does that say about Old Nan's accuracy?

Ned:

And afterwards, he explains about the need for a lord to do his own killing.

So, clearly, the North is trying very hard to remember, yet fails miserably. Knowledge only passed down from Lord to heir apparent? Anti-magic conspiracy in the Citadel? Or just natural erosion of the traditions?

There is an interesting human parallel here.If we told stories by the fireside of deeds from thousands of years ago,would we believe them?

Old Nan's story of the Others laying with women and siring terrible half human children reminds me of a Biblical tale...

"When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."

The Nephelim were also referred to as giants.Perhaps the Others could be seen as sons of the old gods?

The phrase "men of renown" is used when the Wildlings are passing through the Wall in ADWD._"Of special note were the sons of the men of renown.Tormund took care to point them out as they passed by."

[Little Wing]

Especially if the stories you've forgotten end by saying that you're the result of this strange mating.... :stillsick:

[Lady Olenna]

Long time lurker of the Heresy threads... Have had a hard time keeping up with them as they grow very quickly! This re-read is a great idea, thank you Nanother.

My only superficial thoughts on Gared were that his incredible traveling speed was due to his state of shock. I think he's still in shock when the Ned takes his head. The physical body can do amazing things when the mental state is in auto drive/overdrive.

I always assumed that perhaps he was so rattled and "half mad" that anything he told Ned would just be taken as crazy ramblings. I think Jon (bran?) was the only one that really thought twice about why he was in the half mad state he was in.

After they found the dire pups I suspect Ned started to reconsider Gareds death. It always seemed pretty cruel to me that Ned beheaded Gared for desertion when he was obviously not mentally well. I get that it was his duty but any man in Gareds position would have run right past The Wall as well. I sometimes think Ned's ending was sort of Karmic recompense for Gareds death.

Those are only my human reactions to the events in question. Gared could very well have ridden the direwolf but I lean towards he probably just never stopped running. I haven't a clue as to why Ned rode so far out to do his duty because it does seem quite inconvenient.

[Black Crow]

We don't really have a narrow enough time frame for the scragging of Ser Waymar to relate it to the time taken for Gared to get down south and the length of Winterfell and say whether he was remarkaqbly quick or otherwise in getting there.

At one level his execution at that holdfast seems a little odd, given that executions have two purposes, first to punish transgressors and second to be seen to punish transgressors. From a disciplinary point of view it didn't much matter whether Gared was executed or forgiven, what did matter was that he was seen to be punished and from that point of view he ought to have been taken back to the Wall and punished there in full view of his brothers, failing that a public execution at Winterfell might have done, but taking his head off at such a hole in the corner place in the middle of nowhere isn't going to be an awful example to anybody.

On the other hand I don't think it matters from a story-telling point of view. GRRM has said that the story grew from this picture he had of the discovery of the direwolf, and in that respect the excursion to the holdfast provides an economical way of getting the Starks out there to find the wolf and the pups - sorted.

Nevertheless, where I do suspect that not all is quite as it seems is the apparent coincidence that Gared, having run all the way from somewhere near the Fist and having got round, through or over the Wall all by himself, should fetch up outside Winterfell at the same time as the Direwolf.

[Lady Olenna]

I think you pinpointed exactly why I grit my teeth with Gerads execution. Other than Bran being witness to his first execution it serves no purpose toward being an example for deserters. Or even the townsfolk of Winterfell.

However, it sounds as though GRRM wrote it as a means to get the Starks to the pups. And I'm ok with that logic.

What is the theory behind him riding the direwolf? Sometimes I forget to leave logic aside and enjoy the magical aspects of the book, but I don't know that I would want to go anywhere near a direwolf unless I was warging it? That would be a suitable theory, if he was indeed a warg. However, it would upset me even more that Ned took his head :(

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure of the practicalties of riding a direwolf, but there was a heretical thought discussed some time ago that the Others/Sidhe encountered by Ser Waymar were in fact convoying the direwolf, and that Gared didn't get away but was spared in return for taking the direwolf through the Black Gate under the Nightfort and on to Winterfell, hence his being captured near and just after it being killed.

There is an interesting question arises from this, which we can discuss later when Nanother finishes his notes - if the direwolf was being sent to deliver the pups to the Stark kids, who killed it and why?

[Little Wing]

Hm... someone has already pointed out (on Evita's re-read I think) that the pups being born from a dead/dying mother could be significant... And there are those characters whose mothers died at childbirth (Jon, Dany and Tyrion). Not saying there's a direct connection (besides Ghost and Jon) but they wolves/people born this way sure are special...

Anyway, I totally bought the stag killing the she direwolf incident - you think it's been staged for some purpose? I mean, I guess it was an elegant solution to kill off the she-wolf because I don't know how the Starks would get the puppies from her if she was alive or what they would do to her... Would she have been Cat's wolf? :laugh:

ETA: Crackpot alert: Do the pups/humans born from a dying mother represent/will bring balance? It's morbid, but one being coming to life while the other passes on seems like a perfect (though morbid) balance.

[Lady Olenna]

I'm not sure of the practicalties of riding a direwolf, but there was a heretical thought discussed some time ago that the Others/Sidhe encountered by Ser Waymar were in fact convoying the direwolf, and that Gared didn't get away but was spared in return for taking the direwolf through the Black Gate under the Nightfort and on to Winterfell, hence his being captured near and just after it being killed.

There is an interesting question arises from this, which we can discuss later when Nanother finishes his notes - if the direwolf was being sent to deliver the pups to the Stark kids, who killed it and why?

I thought the Stag killed the direwolf? I thought it served as a great foreshadowing tool. But I do believe that the direwolf mom being dead right around the time of birth is significant.

Edit: Little WIng beat me to it. Sorry.

I will add that the direwolf being a convoy is a clever idea but why then would the stag have killed it?