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R+L = J v 38


Stubby

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So I just finished reading the whole shebang about R+L=J and I am very curious about how they are going to drop this on the TV show. At this point it seems like it is just going to be laid out in a very cavalier fashion by some random who just happens to know all. Probably LF or Varys. Granted they may come up with a compelling way but from where I am sitting, it just seems like one of the more breadcrumb aspects of the book is going to completely lose it's balls for the show.

If they presented the clues on the show the way they're presented in the book, it would be extremely, extremely obvious. I imagine that's why they're laying so low with it. Not about "losing its balls," but about maintaining the mystery.

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I guess, it just seems like they could have at least firmly planted a seed of doubt of Ned being Jon's father without giving much of anything else away. I guess they could do something like that at any time but I just don't get a sense of mystery from the show. One thing that still drives me nuts is how the show positioned the Culling of the Bastards as a firmly Joffery idea.

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I guess, it just seems like they could have at least firmly planted a seed of doubt of Ned being Jon's father without giving much of anything else away.

I ... think they did that. Ned's obvious lie to Robert, the "you may not have my name, but you have my blood" line.

I know a few people who are show fans but not readers and they've picked up on something hinky with Jon's parentage.

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I ... think they did that. Ned's obvious lie to Robert, the "you may not have my name, but you have my blood" line.

I know a few people who are show fans but not readers and they've picked up on something hinky with Jon's parentage.

You mean to Jon, right? I remember that line and I guess I can kind of see that. To me it came across as a kind of consolation prize for being the bastard of Ned. Even if Jon was Ned's son, that line would still perfectly fit.

Maybe if he said "...our blood" or "...Stark blood".

I could also be expecting too much.

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I guess, it just seems like they could have at least firmly planted a seed of doubt of Ned being Jon's father without giving much of anything else away. I guess they could do something like that at any time but I just don't get a sense of mystery from the show.

They have already started laying the groundwork for this. Nearly everyone I know who watches the show haven't read the books. Several have caught on to the idea that there is something mysterious about Jon's parentage. I know one of the biggies that got a few to tthink that Jon isn't even Ned's son was the conversation between Cat and Jaime where Jaime is telling Cat how honorable Ned is but then he has a bastard.

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I guess, it just seems like they could have at least firmly planted a seed of doubt of Ned being Jon's father without giving much of anything else away. I guess they could do something like that at any time but I just don't get a sense of mystery from the show. One thing that still drives me nuts is how the show positioned the Culling of the Bastards as a firmly Joffery idea.

I saw the show before I read the books, and I picked up some doubt. Can't say exactly what is was...maybe Sean Bean's pained expressions and reluctance to discuss the matter. Also, there was the fact that the mystery of Jon's mother remained unsolved after two seasons, so it was clearly being built up, and issues that aren't significant aren't built up. From there, it's not a leap to start thinking the mystery might extend to Jon's father as well. And from what we're told of the backstory of the rebellion, there are simply no reasonable candidates besides Rhaegar and Lyanna. None that would carry the weight the ongoing mystery seems to imply, at least. They fit the timeline and they fit the circumstances.

So by the end of season 2, I was convinced of R+L=J. However, I did not think that Lyanna was a willing participant; I assumed Jon was the child of rape. The show hasn't gotten around to giving much of an angle on Rhaegar besides Robert's. Jorah made a minor comment, but it wasn't enough for me. The case for Jon's legitimacy was something that I was glad to see unfold as I read the books, and when I first came here.

Point being, I agree with Apple Martini: subtlety is the best course for the show.

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Welcome to all the n00bs, don't think I seen this many on a thread, ever.

Was Jon born at the time of Aerys's death? If not then surely the throne would have passed to Viserys not him. I'm sure the has been covered before but I was just pondering

dutch law student and here we have rules for this kind of stuff. I'm aI'm not sure about westros law but but most law systems in the middle ages had a law that said "If it's in the benefit of the unborn child, that child wil be considered born." Most country's still have a law like that. If the father dies that child will still inherit it's part.

Easy way to look at this is use house Frey.

Lord Walder Frey has IIRC had 28 true born sons.

The eldest son, Stevron, died. Stevron oldest son, Ryman, also died. Ryman oldest son Edwyn is now Lord Walder's Heir.

Lord Walders 2nd son Emmon (married to Lannister, now lord of RR) would become heir only after all of Stevron's male descendents were to die.

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I also watched the show before I read the books and I realized that there was some mistery about Jon´s parents and I also had my doubts about Ned beeing Jon´s father. I don´t know where my doubts came from maybe from the "You have my blood sentence", maybe from Ned´s complete refusal to speake about the topic .... From Benjen´s and Jon´s first scene in episode one I got the strange theory that Benjen were Jon´s dad (complete non-sense I know). And when I read the the books, did some research on the internet and found the Alfie Allen quote I developed the theory that Benjen was in league with the Others and we would get an Darth Vader vs. Luke fight in this case Jon vs. Benjen, whom I still believed to be his dad. When I first read a text which suggested R+L=J I thaught that it was complete nonsense, but after I read bit more about the topic and looked closer to the R+L threads I realised that my theory was wrong and that R+L was true.

I agree that the hints in the show were made very subtle, because they couldn´t give to much away. Thats also the reason why they have changed Dany´s vision in the HotU and why they didn´t include Ned´s TOJ dream.

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there's another scene when Ned is talking with Jon before he goes to wall. If I remember it correctly SB knows how Jon's parents are

thats interesting you know where he said that? i mean i found an interview where the interviewer suggests the R+L=J theory to him and SB isn't exactly cagey about it http://www.vulture.com/2011/06/sean_bean_on_whats_next_for_ga.html

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So my mom just finished AGOT. I asked her who she thought Jon's parents were and she said it was probably Lyanna and Rhaegar: because Lyanna made Ned promise her something, and Jon was the right age to be her son, and she knew Lyanna and Rhaegar had sex, and Jon has Rhaegar's white hair . . .

It took a while for me to explain that Jon actually has black hair, but I was impressed she was able to solve the mystery when I didn't until I first discovered the forum.

That raises the interesting question of the white wolf (is that why she thought Jon had white hair?)... not sure if that's ever been discussed in this context, but it makes me wonder...

Must have been.

So yes it is of course discussed at length in other threads. Consensus seems to be that Ghost's red eyes and white fur represent a weirwood tree, but it is something I'll continue to ponder.

& Bloodraven.
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betting business on the eve of ADOS release.

who will sit the iron throne. odds per 1 dollar

dany: 1.75$

stannis 1.3$

aegon : 1.2$

jon : 1.1$

bran : 1.8$

rickon: 1.9$

arya: 3$

tyrion : 3$

jamie: 5$

Gendry: 50$

samwell: 100$

hodor: 1 million$

hot pie : 1 billion $

no iron throne: refund

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there's another scene when Ned is talking with Jon before he goes to wall. If I remember it correctly SB knows how Jon's parents are

I think Kit Harington knows as well, or he suspects it. He has read all the books and is aware of rumours, he said so in an interview. I've found it very interesting, that he said (when discussing Jon's personality) that Jon wants to be like Ned, but he is not, as he has a firey side as well. LOL.

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I'm very much into the theory (gut feeling + reading the amazing evidence tread)

but I'd like to have your thoughts on who will get us closer to the truth?

Who's still alive and close enough to tell the tale?

I mean, who would have the trust, the means, and could tell it, WHY would they tell just now?

And does it really matter that they tell?

Ofcours in the whole 'Jon will be the heir (if he recovers/lives)' blablabla it matters, but would he truly abandon the wall?

Ned might not be his father, but he grew up with his values: Vows must not be broken, no matter what.

O please note I'm not being demeaning, I just want to point out that this has been a secret for o so many years, most people that mattered are dead. What could be the reason for who to reveal?

Anyhow, shoot! ^_^

(PS: personally, I'd be a little disappointed if Jon isn't a dragon and direwolf)

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I am relatively new to this board, so forgive me if this has been mentioned before.

When i first read agot i thought it was a safe assumption that ned had named jon snow after his mentor, jon arryn. But if jon is indeed rhaegars offspring, perhaps rhaegar chose the name before he died, and named the boy after his good friend, jon connington. Seems plausible...

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Welcome to all the n00bs, don't think I seen this many on a thread, ever. Easy way to look at this is use house Frey. Lord Walder Frey has IIRC had 28 true born sons. The eldest son, Stevron, died. Stevron oldest son, Ryman, also died. Ryman oldest son Edwyn is now Lord Walder's Heir. Lord Walders 2nd son Emmon (married to Lannister, now lord of RR) would become heir only after all of Stevron's male descendents were to die.

For normal houses Stevron's female descendents would also go before Emmon. The best way of illustrating would be house Tully at the beginning of GoT:

Lord Hoster

1. Edmure Tully (oldest son)

2. Catelyn Stark (oldest daughter)

3. Robb Stark (oldest son of oldest daughter, comes after his mother)

4. Brandon Stark

5. Rickon Stark

6. Sansa Stark (oldest daughter of oldest daughter, comes after all brothers)

7. Arya Stark

8. Lysa Arryn (youngest daughter, comes after oldest daughter's children)

9. Robert Arryn (youngest daughter's son, comes after mother)

10. the Blackfish (Hoster's brother, comes after everyone)

The Targaryens have different inheritence laws like Dorne does.

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Ofcours in the whole 'Jon will be the heir (if he recovers/lives)' blablabla it matters, but would he truly abandon the wall?

Ned might not be his father, but he grew up with his values: Vows must not be broken, no matter what.

It may come a point where the Others are destroyed and the NW is needed no more, then Jon can legally leave and become King. There are others that believe his 'death' will absolve him of his vows. (I am not one of them).

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It may come a point where the Others are destroyed and the NW is needed no more, then Jon can legally leave and become King. There are others that believe his 'death' will absolve him of his vows. (I am not one of them).

As a matter of interest do you think Jon (assuming he survives) will be that interested in sticking around at the NW vows or otherwise? I mean he's literally been stabbed in the back by his 'brothers' and has been offered Winterfell by Stannis if he backs him. It's a pretty big incentive to jump ship.

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