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R+L = J v 38


Stubby

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Okay, I'm not sure if this has been answered, so I'll ask anyway.

I believe L+R=J, but if Lyanna had so much trouble with Robert Baratheon's wayward ways, wouldn't she also have an issue with being Rhaegar's second wife (if we are to accept they married at ToJ?) It seems like something she should question...

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Okay, I'm not sure if this has been answered, so I'll ask anyway.

I believe L+R=J, but if Lyanna had so much trouble with Robert Baratheon's wayward ways, wouldn't she also have an issue with being Rhaegar's second wife (if we are to accept they married at ToJ?) It seems like something she should question...

You bet it has :-)

I believe that being a second wife to the Prince Charming who married his first wife out of duty, never loved her and isn't going to bed her any more because she's barren is way different from being a single wife to the guy who shags everything that doesn't run in time. Personally, I'd pick the former any time :P

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Okay, I'm not sure if this has been answered, so I'll ask anyway.

I believe L+R=J, but if Lyanna had so much trouble with Robert Baratheon's wayward ways, wouldn't she also have an issue with being Rhaegar's second wife (if we are to accept they married at ToJ?) It seems like something she should question...

I think the difference is she had little romantic interest in Robert but possibly fell deeply for Rhegar. When you fall in love, your standards have a way of slipping from time to time.

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Jamie remembers the last words Rhaegar said to him before going the battle on the Trident

"When the battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return".

Maybe Rhaegar was talking about his marriage to Elia? I can't imagine Lyanna being happy being his second wife.

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You bet it has :-)

I believe that being a second wife to the Prince Charming who married his first wife out of duty, never loved her and isn't going to bed her any more because she's barren is way different from being a single wife to the guy who shags everything that doesn't run in time. Personally, I'd pick the former any time :P

I wouldn't calling Elia barren since she had 2 healthy children including healthy baby Aegon with all-Targ looks who was the heir to the throne and just wasn't healthy enough to survive carrying any more children, note that SHE wouldn't survive but Baby might have. Also pretty sure, based on Dany's vision in CoK, Prince Charming was just melancholy not "never loved" his first wife. Rhaegar didn't resent Elia enough to kill her off with another pregnancy, though I am sure she would have tried if he insisted.

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Jamie remembers the last words Rhaegar said to him before going the battle on the Trident

"When the battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return".

Maybe Rhaegar was talking about his marriage to Elia? I can't imagine Lyanna being happy being his second wife.

It would've been a major insult to... well pretty much the whole realm to divorse Elia and marry Lyanna (Dorne, Starks, Baratheons- they would all be really pissed). I think he was talking about bringning his father's rule to an end.

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I wouldn't calling Elia barren since she had 2 healthy children including healthy baby Aegon with all-Targ looks who was the heir to the throne and just wasn't healthy enough to survive carrying any more children, note that SHE wouldn't survive but Baby might have. Also pretty sure, based on Dany's vision in CoK, Prince Charming was just melancholy not "never loved" his first wife. Rhaegar didn't resent Elia enough to kill her off with another pregnancy, though I am sure she would have tried if he insisted.

If you wish... so the first wife, according to the maesters, won't have any more children. Did not resent does not equal loved, the best Barristan can come up with when Dany asks him is "fond of". If you have two wives, out of which one is sickly, pregnancy might kill her and you are fond of her, how likely are you to bed her, if you have a healthy second wife at hand whom you are in love with?

Unlike Robert, Rhaegar would definitely stick to one bed - Lyanna's, Elia or not.

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I wouldn't calling Elia barren since she had 2 healthy children including healthy baby Aegon with all-Targ looks who was the heir to the throne and just wasn't healthy enough to survive carrying any more children, note that SHE wouldn't survive but Baby might have.

We don't know this for sure. Jon Con recalls the maesters saying that Elia would have no more children. Whether this means she was truly barren, or that having more children would kill her, we simply do not know.

In any case, as you say, the fact that more children would kill her would still probably prevent Rhaegar from sleeping with her again.

Also pretty sure, based on Dany's vision in CoK, Prince Charming was just melancholy not "never loved" his first wife.

No. In ADWD, Dany asks Ser Barristan if Rhaegar loved Elia, and he responds by saying that he was "fond" of her. Dany thinks to herself that she knows what "fond of" really means, and we the reader can easily infer this as well: Rhaegar did not truly love Elia.

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It would've been a major insult to... well pretty much the whole realm to divorse Elia and marry Lyanna (Dorne, Starks, Baratheons- they would all be really pissed). I think he was talking about bringning his father's rule to an end.

True but he had already really pissed of the Starks and Baratheons by whisking Lyanna away in the first place, so whats another family to him? I suppose only GRRM can answer that for certain.

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There is precedence though of the Council offering to absolve life long vows to become King, in Maester Aemon, so in the end that isn't a long shot

This isn't exactly comparable. The Citadel is an entity that is sworn to serve the king and lords of Westeros, whereas the Night's Watch is a separate, independent, and neutral entity.

Stannis also seems to think that a king can absolve a member of the Watch from his vows, as he offers to do this for Jon.

I don't recall Stannis ever saying such a thing. What he and Melisandre argue is that Jon's vows were never valid in the first place, because he swore them to "false" gods. Not that a king can absolve him of his vows.

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True but he had already really pissed of the Starks and Baratheons by whisking Lyanna away in the first place, so whats another family to him? I suppose only GRRM can answer that for certain.

I think the context of the passage shows that FittleLinger is correct. Rhaegar is responding to Jaime's insistence to go with him to the battle instead of staying to guard the king. Rhaegar tells him that he dare not take him away from his father at such a time, and then he goes on to give the quote in question. I think he's trying to reassure Jaime that Aerys won't be in charge for long.

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While I do believe in this theory, there is a few things that doesn't make sense about it to me. If Jon (just a newbown baby) was in the Tower of Joy when Ned and Howland Reed defeated the Kingsguard, how did Ned have the time to tear down the tower, and build graves for those who died, with a newbown to look after? This was a big job, especially for just two men and would take several days.

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I think the context of the passage shows that FittleLinger is correct. Rhaegar is responding to Jaime's insistence to go with him to the battle instead of staying to guard the king. Rhaegar tells him that he dare not take him away from his father at such a time, and then he goes on to give the quote in question. I think he's trying to reassure Jaime that Aerys won't be in charge for long.

I have no doubt that he wanted to take charge of the kingdom from Aerys and that it was implied in what he said to Jamie, but he had more to change than just who was King.

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While I do believe in this theory, there is a few things that doesn't make sense about it to me. If Jon (just a newbown baby) was in the Tower of Joy when Ned and Howland Reed defeated the Kingsguard, how did Ned have the time to tear down the tower, and build graves for those who died, with a newbown to look after? This was a big job, especially for just two men and would take several days.

There were probably more people at ToJ when that happened, they needed someone to cook, clean, attend a pregnant woman, stuff 3 KG are not really much into.....also the book says: "they found Ned holding Lyanna's body" They = Howland + someone else (servants, maester, wetnurse, etc)

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There were probably more people at ToJ when that happened, they needed someone to cook, clean, attend a pregnant woman, stuff 3 KG are not really much into.....also the book says: "they found Ned holding Lyanna's body" They = Howland + someone else (servants, maester, wetnurse, etc)

Yes that would make sense, so there is more then Howland Reed out there who knows the identity of Jon, this makes it all much harder to keep secret. So this points to it not actually being true, suppose we have to wait and see.

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True but he had already really pissed of the Starks and Baratheons by whisking Lyanna away in the first place, so whats another family to him? I suppose only GRRM can answer that for certain.

Ah, but the likelihood is that it is Littlefinger's animosity toward Brandon, and his desire for Catelyn that formulates the message about Lyanna and Rhaegar that reaches Brandon, and infuriates him.
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A big deal has been made of weddings and how houses exchange their cloaks during the ceremony. It really would be interesting to find that Ned saved the cloaks in Lyanna's tomb. Honestly, I think it only matters what the reader deduces about Jon's parentage, I think the realm will turn to their savior.

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