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R+L = J v 38


Stubby

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So that's my theory -- R+L=J (and Ned's promise to Lyanna) killed Robb Stark.

I don't know. I see where your going with it. But if Robb was really so concerned he should have kept it in his pants to begin with, or stuck with the Lord's kiss or something. You can't blame Ned for a conclusion Robb came to , based on what Ned did years ago, after Robb had already messed up to begin with. I think it is a bit unfair. Besides, Ned never broke his vow to marry Cat. What got Robb killed was marrying some Westerling over a frey.

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If Aegon was replaced at a time outside of their cognizance.

ETA: There is good reason to expect fAegon to be fake, hence the theories about how he is fake. We just don't have any indication that Varys or Illyrio believe him to be fake. That doesn't mean that one or both do not know, but I theorized a way where they would both believe him the real deal, and he not be. Ashara will know. If Lemore is Ashara, then either I am right, or she chose not to expose the fake for some other reason.

I know this, but per my above post, it would be nearly impossible for both Varys and Illyrio to not know Aegon was fake, especially if the fAegon rumors are true (Aegon is a Blackfyre, Aegon is Illyrio's son, Aegon is Ashara's, etc etc). He would have needed to by switched and smuggled out of KL and IIRC it was Varys who did that.

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I know this, but per my above post, it would be nearly impossible for both Varys and Illyrio to not know Aegon was fake, especially if the fAegon rumors are true (Aegon is a Blackfyre, Aegon is Illyrio's son, Aegon is Ashara's, etc etc). He would have needed to by switched and smuggled out of KL and IIRC it was Varys who did that.

Ah, but what if the babies were switched at birth (by their mothers)? That would be a year before Varys purportedly smuggled him out of King's Landing.
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I don't know. I see where your going with it. But if Robb was really so concerned he should have kept it in his pants to begin with, or stuck with the Lord's kiss or something. You can't blame Ned for a conclusion Robb came to , based on what Ned did years ago, after Robb had already messed up to begin with. I think it is a bit unfair. Besides, Ned never broke his vow to marry Cat. What got Robb killed was marrying some Westerling over a frey.

I agree with the first part -- if Robb was so concerned the proper solution was to show some self-restraint before getting involved with Jeyne.

But once he did the deed, he thought he was honor-bound to make an honest woman of Jeyne. But no-one in Westeros would have criticized Robb if he had just loved her and left her, since Kings and Lords did this all the time.

So I think Robb only married Jeyne because of the -- unusual -- ideas of right and wrong Ned taught him. And because the rest of Ned's family (both his brothers, his sister and his wife) apparently did not share those views, I'm suggesting Ned really didn't believe this either -- he just pretended to believe it to avoid answering questions about Jon.

In other words, Robb's sense of honor in this context was close to unique in Westeros. If he had been brought up by Brandon or Benjen -- or if Ned hadn't made his promise to Lyanna -- Robb would have given Jeyne a nice parting gift and then gone off to marry his stoat.

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I agree with the first part -- if Robb was so concerned the proper solution was to show some self-restraint before getting involved with Jeyne.

But once he did the deed, he thought he was honor-bound to make an honest woman of Jeyne. But no-one in Westeros would have criticized Robb if he had just loved her and left her, since Kings and Lords did this all the time.

So I think Robb only married Jeyne because of the -- unusual -- ideas of right and wrong Ned taught him. And because the rest of Ned's family (both his brothers, his sister and his wife) apparently did not share those views, I'm suggesting Ned really didn't believe this either -- he just pretended to believe it to avoid answering questions about Jon.

In other words, Robb's sense of honor in this context was close to unique in Westeros. If he had been brought up by Brandon or Benjen -- or if Ned hadn't made his promise to Lyanna -- Robb would have given Jeyne a nice parting gift and then gone off to marry his stoat.

I totally see the logic. Robb ended up getting himself killed because he was trying to be even MORE honorable then Ned. It's sad because Ned's honor is how he got himself killed.

It made me think, if Theon was never sent to the Iron Islands, being less scrupolous, he may have convinced Robb to hit and run (Robb also wouldn't have needed consoling). He would have at least tried to talk Robb out the marriage. It might not have worked but its fun to think of what might have been.

It still leads me to thinking it is not bing totally fair to blame Ned's promise to Lyanna for Robb's death. Now maybe we can blame Ned a bit for letting Theon and Robb get so close, that Robb believe they were like brothers. Perhaps a bit of warning about Theon could have prevented the whole Jayne situation to begin with.

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I totally see the logic. Robb ended up getting himself killed because he was trying to be even MORE honorable then Ned. It's sad because Ned's honor is how he got himself killed.

It made me think, if Theon was never sent to the Iron Islands, being less scrupolous, he may have convinced Robb to hit and run (Robb also wouldn't have needed consoling). He would have at least tried to talk Robb out the marriage. It might not have worked but its fun to think of what might have been.

It still leads me to thinking it is not bing totally fair to blame Ned's promise to Lyanna for Robb's death. Now maybe we can blame Ned a bit for letting Theon and Robb get so close, that Robb believe they were like brothers. Perhaps a bit of warning about Theon could have prevented the whole Jayne situation to begin with.

Yeah, I am with you on Theon. Ned understood that situation perfectly -- he tells Cat to keep an eye on Theon because Theon is the leverage he needs to ensure the Greyjoys' allegiance.

But Cat turns around and asks Robb why he didn't stay in Winterfell and let Theon lead the armies of the North agains the Lannisters! Who puts a hostage in charge of his army?

And then Robb just lets Theon go! Perhaps Robb's tombstone should say "Release the Kraken"!

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A question I haven't seen asked about the Robb/Jeyne situation is:

Why was Tywin so sure Robb would break his marriage contract to the Freys when Jon Snow is 'proof' (to the realm) that Ned hit and run some chick while contracted to marry Cat? Seems illogical with what the realm knows of the Stark's bedding situations...

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I'm jumping right into this tread. I started reading the books right after watching season 1 on HBO, and just fell in love with the books. I never picked up on any of the R+L=J hints in the books, but always thought that Wylla would just be to easy. Jon is maybe the most central figure in the books, and I don't think GRRM would let us know about his mother so early. And after reading the links in the first post, well I'm completly sold. There is no way that all of Ned's guilt towards the promise he made Lyanna is JUST about taking her home to Winterfell after her death.

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I'm jumping right into this tread. I started reading the books right after watching season 1 on HBO, and just fell in love with the books. I never picked up on any of the R+L=J hints in the books, but always thought that Wylla would just be to easy. Jon is maybe the most central figure in the books, and I don't think GRRM would let us know about his mother so early. And after reading the links in the first post, well I'm completly sold. There is no way that all of Ned's guilt towards the promise he made Lyanna is JUST about taking her home to Winterfell after her death.

Welcome. GRRM has laid the hints in the book to support the revelation, later. I personally think the conversation at the tower between Ned and the Kingsguard sews it up nicely, but you can't fully appreciate the conversation until you have digested A Feast for Crows.
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How does that conversation go again? I've read all the books, but clearly I'm not very good at noticing the little things.

Don't beat yourself up about the detail. Its difficult to catch everything on one read. I found so much more on my second, it's like reading a different book. With me, I think I was so interested in learning who lives, who dies and who will reunite I didn't pick up on little details. I think MtnLion means you should give the series a reread. You will see way more with the knowledge you obtained during teh first read mixed with what you learned on the boards.

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Yes, I really should give it a reread and take more time with it and alot more thought! I was so caught up on the "big" things happening, and the shocking deaths to really put my mind into to all the backstory in the books.

Maybe not the tread for this, but do you guys think the remaining Starks will reunite at some point?

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Plus, Apple Martini's test question: what's so supersecret about Ashara being Jon's mother that Ned never tells? It might be understandable if he never tells Cat and confirm the gossip that is circulating, anyway, but he has absolutely no reason not to tell Jon once he is old enough to know how to shut up.

I'm thinking one of the most compelling clues that Ashara is not the mother is Ned's reaction when Catelyn asks him about her. He is so unflinchingly honest it's hard to believe he wouldn't give Cat some answer to a direct question. On the other hand, his reaction, as described from Catelyn's POV, fits with what you would expect from Ned if

a. it isn't true (fire the maid for spreading lies and gossip)

and

b. he is keeping the secret of Jon's parentage because of a (to him) sacred oath to his sister

Besides...why would Lyanna make Ned promise to take care of Aegon if he is nothing to her? at best is her would-be-step-son?

Touché. His is a response of a honourable man who doesn't want to lie but cannot tell the truth. Besides, if he did ever step down from his codes and dishonour Ashara, I'd fully expect him to own his mistake instead of masquerading it with silence.

I'm jumping right into this tread. I started reading the books right after watching season 1 on HBO, and just fell in love with the books. I never picked up on any of the R+L=J hints in the books, but always thought that Wylla would just be to easy. Jon is maybe the most central figure in the books, and I don't think GRRM would let us know about his mother so early. And after reading the links in the first post, well I'm completly sold. There is no way that all of Ned's guilt towards the promise he made Lyanna is JUST about taking her home to Winterfell after her death.

Welcome. GRRM has laid the hints in the book to support the revelation, later. I personally think the conversation at the tower between Ned and the Kingsguard sews it up nicely, but you can't fully appreciate the conversation until you have digested A Feast for Crows.

One of my favorite hints of R+L=J is in GOT but im feeling really lazy at the moment and don't really feel like explaining the whole thing in my own words so here's wiki's explanation of it they do a better job anyway lol :

Further evidence to the truth of this theory in the eighth Eddard chapter of A Game of Thrones, in which Ned contemplates the significance of King Robert's bastards. As he muses, Ned's thoughts drift to Jon Snow, a logical segue, but also to his sister Lyanna, the promise he made her, and to Rhaegar Targaryen, implying some tacit link between the three individuals

I love putting this shit together haha

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Yes, I really should give it a reread and take more time with it and alot more thought! I was so caught up on the "big" things happening, and the shocking deaths to really put my mind into to all the backstory in the books.

Maybe not the tread for this, but do you guys think the remaining Starks will reunite at some point?

There are plenty of threads yes.. But the answer your question, we have to get some reunions. I'm not sure they will all reunite, but we will get at least one. Just not sure on the who , the when and the where.

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Was Jon born at the time of Aerys's death? If not then surely the throne would have passed to Viserys not him. I'm sure the has been covered before but I was just pondering

No. The first son's son comes before the second son. As in, Rhaegar was the first son, and Jon was his son. Thus Jon would inherit the throne before Viserys, or Dany, for that matter. As would Rhaella, if she was still alive, and as will Aegon. Logically speaking, if Aegon was to have a child, that child would inherit the throne before Jon.
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I have a really strong feeling Arya will meet atleast one of her siblings again, maybe even save one of them. But back to Jon, assuming he is half Targaryen. How will that influence his storyline?

It's theorized that only those with Valyrian blood (Targaryens, for example) can ride dragons. We have Daenerys, Aegon, and...Jon. "The dragon must have three heads."-Rhaegar Targaryen.

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No. The first son's son comes before the second son. As in, Rhaegar was the first son, and Jon was his son. Thus Jon would inherit the throne before Viserys, or Dany, for that matter.

Are we sure this is right under Targ succession rules? In real life, this would be the case in modern times. But not necessarily in medieval times. For example, when Richard the Lionheart died, modern rules would have passed the the throne to the son of Richard's dead brother, Geoffrey. But because Geoffrey died before Richard (and so was never king) the throne went to Richard's next brother, John, and Geoffrey's son was passed over.

Are there any Targ kings who inherited directly from a grandfather because the father was already dead? (I checked on Baelor Breakspear but Baelor's sons both died before Baelor's father, so that does not seem to help with this question).

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Are we sure this is right under Targ succession rules? In real life, this would be the case in modern times. But not necessarily in medieval times. For example, when Richard the Lionheart died, modern rules would have passed the the throne to the son of Richard's dead brother, Geoffrey. But because Geoffrey died before Richard (and so was never king) the throne went to Richard's next brother, John, and Geoffrey's son was passed over.

Are there any Targ kings who inherited directly from a grandfather because the father was already dead? (I checked on Baelor Breakspear but Baelor's sons both died before Baelor's father, so that does not seem to help with this question).

You're kind of oversimplifying the English succession in that case. For one, Arthur was 12 years old and would've needed a regent anyway. Richard I named John as his successor because of Arthur's young age. For another — and this is probably the biggest reason — Arthur was in Brittany at the time (i.e. not physically in England to claim the throne) and was considered a little too friendly with the French king for England's liking. Arthur did try to press a claim but was largely rebuffed, because John had already laid claim and because the English didn't like his relationship with the French monarchy. It's not like Arthur's claim was just cleanly overlooked just for shits and giggles.

You can't really use this as a precedent for youngest brothers inheriting over the sons of younger brothers when there are a lot of political and practical reasons for John jumping over Arthur that you just kind of ignored.

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