R+L = J v 38

[FittleLinger]

There is plenty of evidence to the contrary, but nothing nearly as strong as "Of course Dragonstone is the plain truth and your idea is a red herring", "you are simply mistaken.", and "But on present evidence that person is Daenerys Targaryen."

Essentially, I was making a point of your way of speaking - like we are retarded children, but it's not our fault - we were simply born this way, and cannot fully comprehend our own stupidity. And that's about an idea that is very far from proven.

One that I disagree with as well. I'm not going to point out all the text proof that Jon is AA, nor will point out that there is no real evidence for Dany other thatn Aemon's fevre dream ramblings (who is human, and you know, can be wrong too). And also, I find it very reasonable for people to doubt in "the first obvious choice" simply because they have good reason to with Martin.

[The guy from the Vale]

@Old-Growth: There are arguments to be made for both Dany and Jon as Azor Ahi/PtwP. I still stick to the interpretation that it's Jon, mainly because it's both more subtle and more interconnected with other very plausible theories (like R+L=J or Lightbringer as the Night's Watch).

As for Apple's contention that Aemon procliming Dany PtwP means nothing, I have to agree. That's because Aemon lacks some crucial information. He knows the PtwP has to be a Targaryen from Aerys' and Rhaella's line. Aemon thinks Dany is the last survivor of sid line, so concluding that she is the PtwP would only be logical. The problem, though, is that Jon, as Rhaegar's son, also qualifies. If Aemon knew that this boy, who already reminds him of his younger brother Egg, is actually a Targaryen, I doubt he'd latch onto Dany as the PtwP candidate.

[Old-Growth]

There is plenty of evidence to the contrary, but nothing nearly as strong as "Of course Dragonstone is the plain truth and your idea is a red herring", "you are simply mistaken.", and "But on present evidence that person is Daenerys Targaryen."

Essentially, I was making a point of your way of speaking - like we are retarded children, but it's not our fault - we were simply born this way, and cannot fully comprehend our own stupidity. And that's about an idea that is very far from proven

One that I disagree with as well. I'm not going to point out all the text proof that Jon is AA, nor will point out that there is no real evidence for Dany other thatn Aemon's fevre dream ramblings (who is human, and you know, can be wrong too). And also, I find it very reasonable for people to doubt in "the first obvious choice" simply because they have good reason to with Martin.

What text proof is that? That is what I am asking inasmuch as I can see no such proof. Grr... I don't mean to antagonize the other spoonerism fan in the forum, but that is the way I see it. And I would also like to see the proof of your last proposition as well. The idea that Martin is always or almost always tricksome is also unproven, at least not by a chapter by chapter examination of the text in light of the available SSM's. It is just an assumption based on a couple of striking instances such as the execution of Eddard Stark and, perhaps, the Red Wedding.

[The guy from the Vale]

There are quite a number of mysteries that don't turn out the way we think they will at first. Just a number of instances:

Who killed Jon Arryn? We think at first it was Cersei and Jaime, but it turns out it was Littlefinger and Lysa.

Who told the assassin to try and kill Bran? We think at first that it's Cersei and Jaime, but it turns out to be Joffrey.

Who was Jon Snow's mother? We're presented with Ashara and Wylla as possible answers, but if you start digging deeper, R+L=J becomes the most plausible answer.

The question who AAR/PtwP is just fits in this category of questions, just like the question who the valonqar is, for example.

[Old-Growth]

@Old-Growth: There are arguments to be made for both Dany and Jon as Azor Ahi/PtwP. I still stick to the interpretation that it's Jon, mainly because it's both more subtle and more interconnected with other very plausible theories (like R+L=J or Lightbringer as the Night's Watch).

As for Apple's contention that Aemon procliming Dany PtwP means nothing, I have to agree. That's because Aemon lacks some crucial information. He knows the PtwP has to be a Targaryen from Aerys' and Rhaella's line. Aemon thinks Dany is the last survivor of sid line, so concluding that she is the PtwP would only be logical. The problem, though, is that Jon, as Rhaegar's son, also qualifies. If Aemon knew that this boy, who already reminds him of his younger brother Egg, is actually a Targaryen, I doubt he'd latch onto Dany as the PtwP candidate.

But he still would: he says that "the dragons prove it". And it is on that basis that he declares that "Daenerys is the one". Given that your doubt as expressed is not warranted. And Aemon knows what the prophecy says which is more than you can say for us.

[The guy from the Vale]

Aemon is forgetting his own inofficial family motto here - "don't wake the dragon". Waking dragons doesn't need to be literal.

Also, the fact that Maester Aemon, of all people, hasn't connected the dots that LB=NW, should warn us against his reading of prophecy. He might be decent at it, but he's far from infallible.

[Old-Growth]

Also, the fact that Maester Aemon, of all people, hasn't connected the dots that LB=NW, should warn us against his reading of prophecy. He might be decent at it, but he's far from infallible.

Excuse me? What dots are those?

[mormont]

[mod] People, cool off. It's only a book and these are only theories. It's supposed to be fun. Don't want to have to delete any more personal attacks, please. [/mod]

[The guy from the Vale]

The dots are that the Men of the Watch are, by their own vow, the sword in the darkness, the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn. They are literally calling themselves Lightbringer here, and even connecting this to the imagery of a sword.

Even the forging part fits, as the Watchmen swear not to haev a wife and children - they are literally sacrificing their wives.

[Old-Growth]

There are quite a number of mysteries that don't turn out the way we think they will at first. Just a number of instances:

Who killed Jon Arryn? We think at first it was Cersei and Jaime, but it turns out it was Littlefinger and Lysa.

Who told the assassin to try and kill Bran? We think at first that it's Cersei and Jaime, but it turns out to be Joffrey.

Who was Jon Snow's mother? We're presented with Ashara and Wylla as possible answers, but if you start digging deeper, R+L=J becomes the most plausible answer.

The question who AAR/PtwP is just fits in this category of questions, just like the question who the valonqar is, for example.

But what you say begs the question at issue. You claim that this fits into a certain category of questions namely those in which the initial impression is over turned by later developments in the story, but I am saying that in the case of AAR there are no such later developments.

[The guy from the Vale]

Then name one case of such a 'whodunnit/whoisit' in the books where the first answer is also the right one?

Also, even in your interpretation we're left with a false AAR from the start - Stannis.

[Old-Growth]

I just named one.

[The guy from the Vale]

You declared one to be that way, with no other working the same way? I'm asking for a confirmed example apart from the one in question.

[Old-Growth]

The dots are that the Men of the Watch are, by their own vow, the sword in the darkness, the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn. They are literally calling themselves Lightbringer here, and even connecting this to the imagery of a sword.

Even the forging part fits, as the Watchmen swear not to haev a wife and children - they are literally sacrificing their wives.

They are figuratively sacrificing their wives, either in that if unmarried they take a vow not to have a wife, or they agree to leave their wife if they have one. Whether that agreement actually dissolves the marriage is unclear. But this does not mean sacrifice in the way Nissa Nissa was sacrificed---that is, killed.

And they do not call themselves Lightbringer, at least not if what Melisandre states as the pertinent portion of the prophecy is correct.

[Old-Growth]

You declared one to be that way, with no other working the same way? I'm asking for a confirmed example apart from the one in question.

It is confirmed so far: what Martin will do next is an open matter.

[The guy from the Vale]

Another example then, please. One could take Mel's saying just as much as confirmation as Aemon's fevered ramblings, if not more so.

[Vanessa Wolf]

She wolf, hahaha : ) don't attempt to be insulting and then put a smiley at the end, eww. Wylla is completely made up by Ned Stark to cover up for Lyanna. Lyanna knows that Robert would kill any heir of Rhaegar's. I am confident that this will come out. This doesn't imply that no one else can also be named Wylla : ). And if you don't know what a port is, google it. Or look for the Tower of Joy(*the only correction of yours that I will allow) on a map of Westeros, and look were the closest access to the sea is. I'm convinced Jon was born in Wyl and moved. Lyanna died, in my opinion, due to complications from child birth. And if Jon isn't Rhaegar's son, then why were the 3 finest members of the kingsguard guarding Lyanna? The original post that I was replying to more than proves it. I was just adding my bit about Wyl, as no one else noticed. I have nothing more to add, nor will I let the name of Edric Storm's wet nurse dissuade me. : ) : ) If you think that its a coincidence, I disagree. I don't think anything is a coincidence in this series.

[Dr. Pepper]

She wolf, hahaha : ) don't attempt to be insulting and then put a smiley at the end, eww. Wylla is completely made up by Ned Stark to cover up for Lyanna. Lyanna knows that Robert would kill any heir of Rhaegar's. I am confident that this will come out. This doesn't imply that no one else can also be named Wylla : ). And if you don't know what a port is, google it. Or look for the Tower of Joy(*the only correction of yours that I will allow) on a map of Westeros, and look were the closest access to the sea is. I'm convinced Jon was born in Wyl and moved. Lyanna died, in my opinion, due to complications from child birth. And if Jon isn't Rhaegar's son, then why were the 3 finest members of the kingsguard guarding Lyanna? The original post that I was replying to more than proves it. I was just adding my bit about Wyl, as no one else noticed. I have nothing more to add, nor will I let the name of Edric Storm's wet nurse dissuade me. : ) : ) If you think that its a coincidence, I disagree. I don't think anything is a coincidence in this series.

I don't think anyone's having trouble with the definition of port. The question is, how does a port relate to salt AND smoke? If you are convinced Jon was born in Wyl and then moved, can you provide evidence to support that theory?

Edric Dayne independently verified that there was a woman named Wylla how corroborated Ned's story to Robert that a woman named Wylla was the mother. So there was definitely someone named Wylla involved somehow. She was likely the midwife and/or wetnurse.

I just really don't get the point you are trying to make about the Port of Wyl. Wyl is also a name. There is a male Wyl and a feminized version of the name, Wylla.

[Queen of Procrastination]

She wolf, hahaha : ) don't attempt to be insulting and then put a smiley at the end, eww. Wylla is completely made up by Ned Stark to cover up for Lyanna. Lyanna knows that Robert would kill any heir of Rhaegar's. I am confident that this will come out. This doesn't imply that no one else can also be named Wylla : ). And if you don't know what a port is, google it. Or look for the Tower of Joy(*the only correction of yours that I will allow) on a map of Westeros, and look were the closest access to the sea is.1. I'm convinced Jon was born in Wyl and moved. Lyanna died, in my opinion, due to complications from child birth. And if Jon isn't Rhaegar's son, then why were the 3 finest members of the kingsguard guarding Lyanna? The original post that I was replying to more than proves it. I was just adding my bit about Wyl, as no one else noticed. I have nothing more to add, nor will I let the name of Edric Storm's wet nurse dissuade me. : ) : ) 2.If you think that its a coincidence, I disagree. I don't think anything is a coincidence in this series.

1. Moving with a woman who just gave birth to a child and an infant, even if they had a maester it´s too dangerous it would have killed Lyanna and Jon of, the risk was too great.

2. Like Tyrion arriving in the Crossroads time exactly when Catelyn was there or Yoren finding Arya among all the peple who were watching Ned´s execution? These were pretty big coincidences.

[MtnLion]

Rhaegar named the tower of joy. We don't know when he did so, but likely when he first took refuge there with Lyanna. I conclude that Jon was born there, at that tower. I don't think that the tower was extensive, because Ned tore it down to make cairns for the dead. The tower must have been a simple watchtower, not a defensible position. It certainly seems that the Kingsguard would want to move, but could not do so with an ill Lyanna and a newborn. The tower may be amidst salt and smoke, we don't know. Jon is a descendant of Aerys and Rhaella, and interestingly his heritage is ice (Stark) and fire (Targaryen). Is song a reference to the result of the union?

What we do know is that everyone that has thought that they knew who AA (the Prince that was Promised) was was incorrect. No one has successfully read the prophesy, and there certainly can be many copies of the document floating around, since it predates the Targaryens fleeing Valyria.

Maester Aemon knows of only Daenerys as the sole surviving Targaryen, so naturally he is going to seize on her as a candidate for the role. For him to not assume that there was a savior for the world would be to abandon all hope. Melisandre has her own agenda, and I am quite certain that she even lies to herself. Rhaegar thought it was he, himself, that was the PtwP (AA, by name), and admitted that he was wrong. Then he thought it was Aegon, but many people think that Aegon is dead. (I think that Varys did save him, but he was not born of the line.) So far we have no resolution, but I am certain that Daenerys; shallow, naive and gullible that she is; is not.