Drawing Blood From a Bolton

[The Mother of The Others]

Are Berric, unCat, and wights the same things but the Red Priests don't know how (or at least Thoros doesn't) to exert control over the warg-like bond? Are unCat and Berric much different from Coldhands?

both Red Priest resurrection and the raising of wights lacks a life for life exchange

Zombification could just be part of what happens on that world no matter what, and then each region and each branch of magic evolves its own subspecies of zombie. (Just as there are many kinds of beetles.) Each religion sees god(s) through the filter of its own culture, producing a variety of myths which hopefully lead us all to the same place of contentment. Similarly, each sorcerer uses unique magical skills to uncover the zombie arts in his/her own way, so each brand of zombie has different traits because it bears the fingerprint of its original spellcaster. (?)

I'm looking at the Others' zombies as conversions from one order of existence (life/fire) to another (unlife/ice). They pay the cost of conversion with their own deaths. If we're going to fight back we need to find a way to contaminate the Others with our brand of life for a change, instead of always having them win the conversion battle by turning us into wights. Maybe the 'warmer' Berric zombie is meant to represent that breakthrough. So if wights are super-warged and the wall is necessary to cut off their remote control signal, the Others must be like Varymyr 6 Skins, able to control many wights each. Or else the Great Other is like a Mother Brain queen bee who remains stationary and controls the consciousness of thousands of wights. Warging could itself be another broad phenomenon that surfaces in different ways in each species or branch of magic.

[jarl the climber]

I would have to agree with Minstral and say that the Boltons are not really trying to dabble in magic its more like they are cursed or something. Its a compulsion that they can not control.

[jarl the climber]

Roose Bolton is built up as fairly creepy from his introduction. The first reference we get is Ned mentioning that Roose wanted to cut Barristan's throat after the Trident in the context of "Mercy is never a mistake." -- Roose the Unmerciful.

Bran notes Roose as one of the bannerman that test Robb but it is the Greatjon scene that plays out.

This is quite a powerful scene. It is our window into Ned and his "lord's face"compared to his family warmth that we never really get to see on screen (a little with Arya's pack speech maybe.) This is probably the only scene in the series of a man in the martial society of Westeros admitting fear and weakness. There's some of that among Jon and his peers but it still has a veneer of soldier-like bravado. He is admitting his fears and concerns and doubts. Robb is seeking comfort and reassurance from his little brother in possibly the healthiest emotional family scene of the series. In this scene of love and family, Robb is more unnerved by Roose than this beast of a man Greatjon who tosses around the captain of the guard likes he's a three year old. Roose is a thing of Old Nan's stories and is presented this way in specific contrast to the powerful family warmth of this scene as he was placed in opposition to Ned and the value of mercy earlier. There is a deliberate attempt to portray Roose as creepy and in opposition to the Stark core values.

"Only death can pay for life." This is a common enough fantasy concept and fits with the idea of a balance in the world and even our innate sense of fairness. When Thoros brings back Berric there is no death to pay for that life. Berric complains to Thoros about "too many times" and about a sense of being consumed like fire is hinted at iirc. Berric's death can be said to pay for Cat's life but it doesn't seem to have been a requirement. Berric only gave the kiss to Cat when Thoros refused. Is Cat alive? She feels more like a revenant than the mother we last saw. In our first resurrection we have Dany and MMD in a bit of a philosophical discussion about "what is life?" I wonder how much of that is asking the same of unCat and Berric.

I wonder if it is similar to Mel and her shadow babies that seem to siphon off the life energy of her mate. Would Berric or unCat die if Thoros died? Is there life force tied to or borrowed from him? Is this similar to the wights? The wights are another form of magical "life" that bypasses or violates the "Only death can pay for life" rule. We know from Ghost and Jon that the Wall seems to block warging which may be an indication that the wights are warging the dead since the Wall is designed to stop them. Jojen talks to Bran about his concerns that the wolf will consume him and wants him to exert conscious control over Summer. Are Berric, unCat, and wights the same things but the Red Priests don't know how (or at least Thoros doesn't) to exert control over the warg-like bond? Are unCat and Berric much different from Coldhands?

I know Martin isn't very rules oriented in his creation of magical worlds but there needs to be a sense of internal consistency for the reader to buy into it. The death for life is fairly simple and straightforward. The lack of a life for life exchange in both Red Priest resurrection and the raising of wights is at least a plausible connection between the two.

You have some interesting things to say and ask some good questions. However I think you are mistaken in saying that a warg can not control his animal through the wall. If Bloodraven is controling Mormonts raven as some suspect then clearly he able to do this. I think that Jon lacks the skills to do this but it can be done. Mace also said that Varamyrs eagle was spying on Castle Black during the seige, I think it does not affect avians possibly, Varamyr is also more highly skilled than Jon.

Beric is quite different from the wights. He is capable of speech. He drinks but he does not eat. It seems like he can be killed just like anybody else unlike the wights. When he raises Stoneheart he does it against Thoros's wishes, so he is not completely a thrall. Thoros seemed to beleive the process of raising him could kill him as well. It seems like he is sacrificing part of his life force or the lives that live within him similar to Stannis.

[Sevumar]

the magic system in Dungeons and Dragons gets it totally wrong, then. It's completely labeled, grouped, homogenized, explained, each spell a known quantity ranked by power level. Hey, maybe that's why that stuff wasn't as fulfilling as it seemed it would be. You'd get a full spell list and it'd feel empty and unsatisfying still, because it was more like a toolbelt that functioned like clockwork instead of feeling magical anymore. So it got un-amazing real fast, and you'd wonder where things went wrong.

D&D's magic system has to be that way so that players and DMs have a common language for describing the package of effects that they're using. If RPGs used freeform magic, playing would be a total nightmare as people tried to describe what they were doing, what/where the effects took place, and then how well it worked. Then, the DM would have to decide a fair cost and a way of assessing the success of the spell. Before being released, these systems have to be play-tested extensively to make sure they're balanced. For those who like a bit more unpredictability to their magic, Warhammer FRP has an interesting system.

Within the lore of D&D prominent wizards (and other casters) invent new spells and distribute them to apprentices or allies, so it's not completely fair to describe the system as stagnant. On the whole, this kind of system does its job well, just as a system with less emphasis on the particulars of mechanics works well for literature. They have different attributes for different tasks. When companies like Green Ronin sit down to write sets of rules for an IP like ASOIAF, they also create lists of named abilities with well-documented effects even though this would never work on the pages of the novels.

Unfortunately, even though being a Faceless might not blacken the soul magically, it seems they're intent on shrinking Arya's soul. This No One business may just be one of the tests, something she's actually supposed to resist like she's doing. Or she might ultimately have to leave them to avoid having her identity crushed.

I think there's a difference between soul and identity. For the type of power the FM wield and the kind of work they do, it makes sense to remove the identity as much as possible to prevent people from killing for egotistical reasons. Nobody likes to see that happen to children or to well-liked characters, but this kind of transformation is one that several characters are experiencing in their own way. Jon went through it in the Night's Watch, for example. Arya's more likely to walk away with much of the training without officially joining the order, in my estimation.

Anyway, the point of pointing all this out is to say the Boltons and Warlocks and Others would probably have Unlife as the common thread of their magical traditions, whereas the FM are a more complex mixture, like a mutt. I don't know what's going on with the fire priests or how to classify all the varied crap they've busted out with as a group.

I think we have good reason to consider that the root of all non-nature magic is probably some application of blood magic. Blood may not always be the cost, but much of what we've seen seems to operate on a system of exchanging life force for power.

"Only death can pay for life." This is a common enough fantasy concept and fits with the idea of a balance in the world and even our innate sense of fairness. When Thoros brings back Berric there is no death to pay for that life. Berric complains to Thoros about "too many times" and about a sense of being consumed like fire is hinted at iirc.

I don't think we can say for certain what the force animating Beric was, or what happens in the kiss of life. There doesn't seem to have been any cost to Thoros in the transaction and the amount of Beric's identity that remained intact suggests it's a somewhat different process from the animation of wights. On the other hand, he does seem fairly similar to Coldhands in autonomy and in ability to recall his former life, as you suggest below. I'm sure our ignorance about this process is intentional because I think we're going to see this mechanic in play in a much more high-profile role. Beric seems to have been the telegraph Martin uses to teach us about the possibility without spoiling the details.

I wonder if it is similar to Mel and her shadow babies that seem to siphon off the life energy of her mate. Would Berric or unCat die if Thoros died? Is there life force tied to or borrowed from him? Is this similar to the wights?

I don't see any reason to conclude that Beric or Stoneheart are feeding off Thoros, for lack of a better term. Whatever reanimated Beric has happened and dwells within him. Not only that, but it passes to Stoneheart over Thoros's objections. To me, that suggests that it's entirely independent of Thoros.

As for shadow babies, I think it's reasonable to conclude that she's deriving life force or life essence from Stannis's semen. The concept is suggested in some of the lore about the Night's King and the Others, and it corresponds to beliefs held by ancient and medieval societies in our own world.

The wights are another form of magical "life" that bypasses or violates the "Only death can pay for life" rule. We know from Ghost and Jon that the Wall seems to block warging which may be an indication that the wights are warging the dead since the Wall is designed to stop them.

The reanimation of wights seems more like the use of a tool by an outside force, like a sophisticated puppet, rather than a true restoration to life. The body remains cold, the blood does not pump, and the being seems entirely sustained through magic.

[*Ceallach*]

^{BB - i just wanna say this.}

^{MIND BLOWN.....}

^{This theory is similar (but far more organised) to one that i've been preparing for here for a week. Even though i cannot stand house bolton (freakish upstarts) this theory has given them a whole new dimension to me.}

^:bowdown:

[western wolf]

I would have to agree with Minstral and say that the Boltons are not really trying to dabble in magic its more like they are cursed or something. Its a compulsion that they can not control.

It may just be a genetic defect. Roose Bolton has some unusual physical attriibutes, and a very strange personality. Aery's was probably crazy from a genetic defect that resulted from centuries of incest between Targaryens.

Not saying that's whats happened to Roose, but his eyes (i think) are not normal enough that they're probably the result of his genetics.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

I would have to agree with Minstral and say that the Boltons are not really trying to dabble in magic its more like they are cursed or something. Its a compulsion that they can not control.

Having read most of the magic!Bolton theories on this website (particularly the "Last day in Harrenhal" one blew my mind!), I agree with you, jarl. I think, putting this simply, that at one point they tried to obtain magic (probably due to Starks' warging abilities and the enmity between the two Houses), perhaps that's where the flaying and wearing skin tradition comes from ("skinchanging"), but they eventually ended up doing something that pissed off the Old Gods. So they were cursed.

But when I put it like that, it sounded too obvious and bland.

[Ragnorak]

You have some interesting things to say and ask some good questions. However I think you are mistaken in saying that a warg can not control his animal through the wall. If Bloodraven is controling Mormonts raven as some suspect then clearly he able to do this. I think that Jon lacks the skills to do this but it can be done. Mace also said that Varamyrs eagle was spying on Castle Black during the seige, I think it does not affect avians possibly, Varamyr is also more highly skilled than Jon.

Beric is quite different from the wights. He is capable of speech. He drinks but he does not eat. It seems like he can be killed just like anybody else unlike the wights. When he raises Stoneheart he does it against Thoros's wishes, so he is not completely a thrall. Thoros seemed to beleive the process of raising him could kill him as well. It seems like he is sacrificing part of his life force or the lives that live within him similar to Stannis.

I was thinking the difference with Bloodraven is the greenseer factor. He seems to be warging the black cat in KL too. From Arya we know distance isn't an issue. I'll have to look for the passage and reread it, but my recollection was that Jon couldn't even sense Ghost at all after he scaled the Wall with the wildlings. I like the drinking observation. Berric is definitely closer to a Coldhands mentally but Coldhands never ate or drank and (I'm assuming) he'd be as unkillable as a wight which is a pretty big distinction considering how the hacked off body parts still went after Jon when he saved Mormont. Mel says she didn't need to eat or drink or sleep but could actually eat if she wanted to. Can Aemon's comment to Sam about the cold preserving and fire consuming help explain some of these differences?

[Sevumar]

Berric is definitely closer to a Coldhands mentally but Coldhands never ate or drank and (I'm assuming) he'd be as unkillable as a wight which is a pretty big distinction considering how the hacked off body parts still went after Jon when he saved Mormont. Mel says she didn't need to eat or drink or sleep but could actually eat if she wanted to. Can Aemon's comment to Sam about the cold preserving and fire consuming help explain some of these differences?

I think the common connection could be that both Melisandre and Coldhands/wights are sustained by some sort of outside force. Melisandre calls it the fires of her Lord, while I think we can assume it's the animating magic the Others use in the case of wights.

[jarl the climber]

Having read most of the magic!Bolton theories on this website (particularly the "Last day in Harrenhal" one blew my mind!), I agree with you, jarl. I think, putting this simply, that at one point they tried to obtain magic (probably due to Starks' warging abilities and the enmity between the two Houses), perhaps that's where the flaying and wearing skin tradition comes from ("skinchanging"), but they eventually ended up doing something that pissed off the Old Gods. So they were cursed.

But when I put it like that, it sounded too obvious and bland.

Its more like they introduced something into their bloodline to get an edge on the Starks but it did not have the intended effect. They have a compulsion to act self destructively but they are essentially human. This trait is stronger in some than in others. So they instinctively want to destroy the Starks but if they were sucsessful they would destroy themselves. Somebody pointed out that the Sarks and the Boltons seem to have fundamentaly different values. On the other hand the long standing rule of house Bolton seems to indicates that it plays some sort of crucial role in the Northern system. I think will Roose will survive and take the black, Fat Waldas kid will live and be allowed to inherit his land and lordship and we will never really get to the bottom of a lot of this.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Its more like they introduced something into their bloodline to get an edge on the Starks but it did not have the intended effect.

In one of the Heresy threads (I think...? I might be mistaken) it was remarked that Boltons could be sharing an "Other" gene. Many have used the "colourless eyes" as an indication. Maybe there's merit to it, given how the Others and Boltons seem to have awoken and come to power (respectively) around the same time.

But if you mean something else by "introduced something into their bloodline," I'd love to hear other theories about what that "something" is.

I think will Roose will survive and take the black, Fat Waldas kid will live and be allowed to inherit his land and lordship and we will never really get to the bottom of a lot of this.

I don't know about Roose's fate, but this whole "Why did Starks allow Boltons to live after so many rebellions?" issue really interests me. I've been following this thread for some time now, and some people came up with interesting theories.

[Sevumar]

In one of the Heresy threads (I think...? I might be mistaken) it was remarked that Boltons could be sharing an "Other" gene. Many have used the "colourless eyes" as an indication. Maybe there's merit to it, given how the Others and Boltons seem to have awoken and come to power (respectively) around the same time.

I think unusually bright blue eyes would make a stronger connection. Eyes that look like "chips of dirty ice" are different and worthy of further scrutiny, but they don't provide a very clear link to the Others in the way that we'd like to see if there was something to this idea. The significance of the eyes could be that the Boltons are traditionally "icy" in an emotional way, dispassionate, cruel, and hard.

[jarl the climber]

I was thinking the difference with Bloodraven is the greenseer factor. He seems to be warging the black cat in KL too. From Arya we know distance isn't an issue. I'll have to look for the passage and reread it, but my recollection was that Jon couldn't even sense Ghost at all after he scaled the Wall with the wildlings. I like the drinking observation. Berric is definitely closer to a Coldhands mentally but Coldhands never ate or drank and (I'm assuming) he'd be as unkillable as a wight which is a pretty big distinction considering how the hacked off body parts still went after Jon when he saved Mormont. Mel says she didn't need to eat or drink or sleep but could actually eat if she wanted to. Can Aemon's comment to Sam about the cold preserving and fire consuming help explain some of these differences?

There is also evidence that Bran can do this. He reached Jon beyond the Wall in ACOK. I am tempted to say that Coldhands is more like Stoneheart but he seems like he is in a class all by himself. The wights do try and attack him and seem to consider him an enemy. I think there is something to what Aemon is saying but we know so little about the Others and even the wights. Jons idea to try and capture some wights and observe them was a good idea but the corpses he has have not revived so we did not learn anything by that other than the fact that the wards on the Wall are still acting properly. Mel did actually sleep once in awhile but she hated it. She prayed for the day she was freed from this burden. Its like her last link to humanity so in that sense she seems like Beric but from what we can see she seems vigorous, enthusiastic, and is capble of feeling pain and pleasure. She considers herself as being more alive than other people. She never expresses a wish to die like Beric.

[Sevumar]

There is also evidence that Bran can do this. He reached Jon beyond the Wall in ACOK. I am tempted to say that Coldhands is more like Stoneheart but he seems like he is in a class all by himself. The wights do try and attack him and seem to consider him an enemy. I think there is something to what Aemon is saying but we know so little about the Others and even the wights.

I think Coldhands' relative uniqueness could be a function of another type of magic worked on him to "liberate" him from the control of the Others. It can't change his wight-ness, but perhaps it was able to restore control of his body and his faculties to himself without purging the magic animating his body.

Mel did actually sleep once in awhile but she hated it. She prayed for the day she was freed from this burden. Its like her last link to humanity so in that sense she seems like Beric but from what we can see she seems vigorous, enthusiastic, and is capble of feeling pain and pleasure. She considers herself as being more alive than other people. She never expresses a wish to die like Beric.

Melisandre is a person who seems to embrace the trappings of becoming less human through her service to her beliefs, while Beric's loss of humanity is bewildering and unwelcome. Both Beric and Stoneheart eventually end up in such advanced states of decay that all that really remains of them is a tangle of strongly-felt emotions.

[The Red Maester]

This is not a theory to be undone, sir.

I had never given much thought to the connection between Qyburn and Bolton, but after reading this, I couldn't help but think on it. I find it interesting that prior to their time at Harrenhal, Qyburn does not appear to have been successful in his necromancy research. If he was, I suspect the Brave Companions would have a couple undead minions amongst their rank. However, a short time after meeting Roose and finding this mysterious book, he successfully reanimates someone. Creepy.

Frankengregor scares me.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is not a theory to be undone, sir.

I had never given much thought to the connection between Qyburn and Bolton, but after reading this, I couldn't help but think on it. I find it interesting that prior to their time at Harrenhal, Qyburn does not appear to have been successful in his necromancy research. If he was, I suspect the Brave Companions would have a couple undead minions amongst their rank. However, a short time after meeting Roose and finding this mysterious book, he successfully reanimates someone. Creepy.

Frankengregor scares me.

Now THAT is interesting — and horrifying — to think about. It would also be a neat way to tie together the southern stuff (like UnGregor) with the northern stuff.

[jarl the climber]

In one of the Heresy threads (I think...? I might be mistaken) it was remarked that Boltons could be sharing an "Other" gene. Many have used the "colourless eyes" as an indication. Maybe there's merit to it, given how the Others and Boltons seem to have awoken and come to power (respectively) around the same time.

But if you mean something else by "introduced something into their bloodline," I'd love to hear other theories about what that "something" is.

I thinkk that they are like the Lannisters and the Targareyeans in that they prefer to inbreed and that their traditions favor these members who tend to be ruthless maniacs over the ones who are not. Roose brings Ramsey to the Dreadfort and grooms him to sucseed him after he thinks he has killed his trueborn heir. He later has Tommen legitimise him as his heir and arranges the marriage to Arya Stark so that he can claim Wuinterfell. He does this with the full knowlege that these honors will probaly end up destroying him. He speaks with admiration for the Old ways. The right of the first night, he speaks with a certian fondness of the customs that they practice on Skagos. He at least speaks about the evil of kinslaying, I do not know if he is saying this in the hopes that Theon will repeat it to Ramsey so he can take him off guard if Ramsey is stupid enought to beleive it or if this a genuine beleif on his part

There is a tendency to put the Starks on a pedastel but the early Starks were probaly closer to the Boltons than they were to the present day Starks. Bran mentions that many of his ancestors had done terrible things. It seems like the Boltons are more like Old School Northmen but the Starks have moved away from some of the more questionable practices. Wheras the Boltons keep them alive in private. Cat initially considered Ned to be a cold man, a description that she uses for Bolton as well with better reason. Jaimies reaction to Roose is that his eyes remind him of the day in Kings Landing when Ned Stark comes upon him sitting on the Iron Throne. What I am saying is that deep down inside the Starks share the same weakneses that the Boltons have.

Unlike the Starks they have kept this alive by a combination of inbreeding, blood sacrifice, and a secret adherence to the old ways. If there is a connection to the Others it is anceint and has been preserved through inbreeding.

[Sevumar]

There is a tendency to put the Starks on a pedastel but the early Starks were probaly closer to the Boltons than they were to the present day Starks. Bran mentions that many of his ancestors had done terrible things. It seems like the Boltons are more like Old School Northmen but the Starks have moved away from some of the more questionable practices. Wheras the Boltons keep them alive in private. Cat initially considered Ned to be a cold man, a description that she uses for Bolton as well with better reason. Jaimies reaction to Roose is that his eyes remind him of the day in Kings Landing when Ned Stark comes upon him sitting on the Iron Throne. What I am saying is that deep down inside the Starks share the same weakneses that the Boltons have.

I'm not sure that saying the Starks and Boltons share the same weakness is really the most accurate way to characterize it. I think there's a big element of "hard people from a hard land" running through all the Northern houses. Look at the accusations Roose makes about the Umbers, for example. The behavior of the Greatjon and of various Karstarks supports this theme.

Ned seems like an uncharacteristically compassionate man for a scion of the North. That may simply be his nature, but I think it's more likely to stem from the amount of tragedy suffered early in his life.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

<snip>

I agree with how the old Kings in the North were described as "cold and hard" men. Besides, I'm sure there's no House/family which every single member is good and honourable. I'm sure some of the old Starks did terrible things, just as some of the future Starks will.

However, I'm going to have to disagree about inbreeding.

First of all, there's absolutely no proof of this. Second, it has been implied that the First Men frown upon inbreeding even more than Southrons/Andals do. Not only there is no proof of any inbreeding between noble Houses in the North, but also Ygritte mentions something like even people from the same village not being able to get married because they were considered brothers and sisters.

So yeah... I've no idea where you came up with the inbreeding one o.O

[butterbumps!]

Having read most of the magic!Bolton theories on this website (particularly the "Last day in Harrenhal" one blew my mind!), I agree with you, jarl. I think, putting this simply, that at one point they tried to obtain magic (probably due to Starks' warging abilities and the enmity between the two Houses), perhaps that's where the flaying and wearing skin tradition comes from ("skinchanging"), but they eventually ended up doing something that pissed off the Old Gods. So they were cursed.

But when I put it like that, it sounded too obvious and bland.

One thing I'm really curious about is the idea of "curses." From Martin's comments about there not being "real gods" in the series, I've been interested in looking for explanations that go beyond the notion of divine punishment and sin, and that's part of why the notion of misused magic appeals to me.

In terms of ethics and morality, people do talk about curses and sins: kinslaying, guest right, etc. Yet, those who defile these morals aren't punished by the gods-- they're punished by other people. These are the named sins we see, and they go against the social order, and as such, seem to be punished by men.

I don't think "gods" punish people as such. I'm wondering if the issue is that when people go against the natural order, this may be what causes those natural imbalances and also harm to the user (Dalla's "sword without a hilt"). That is, I think misuse of magic might be the closest thing we may have to something like a "divine sin," and it seems to result in strange magical ramifications that are unpredictable, appearing like a punishment doled by the gods.

As it pertains, I wonder if the issue of the Boltons is an issue of their having tried to practice some kind of magic and are "cursed" by the effects of their having done so. Not that it's a divine curse, but that through some kind of magic in the past that changed their nature, or something like that. I'm not disagreeing with you, only that I think it's an interesting metaphysical question about the nature of "curses" and divine punishment, or whether there's something else at play.

Berric is definitely closer to a Coldhands mentally but Coldhands never ate or drank and (I'm assuming) he'd be as unkillable as a wight which is a pretty big distinction considering how the hacked off body parts still went after Jon when he saved Mormont. Mel says she didn't need to eat or drink or sleep but could actually eat if she wanted to. Can Aemon's comment to Sam about the cold preserving and fire consuming help explain some of these differences?

I don't know if this adds anything to your comment, but my theory on why Coldhands is the way he is may have something to do with his NW vows. We haven't seen a wight who has taken their vows before the old gods. I'd wondered if the original vows, said before the old gods, might actually give a form of protection against the WW, somehow preserving the Watchman from complete submission to the Others. I'd suspected that Coldhands may have said his vows at the weirgrove and thusly preserved more of himself.

I think will Roose will survive and take the black, Fat Waldas kid will live and be allowed to inherit his land and lordship and we will never really get to the bottom of a lot of this.

I know Stannis is the NK frontrunner, but I completely agree that Roose is going to survive this Battle of Winterfell business, and I'd wondered if he might try to usurp the Nightfort or something like that. I'm not committed to this idea precisely, only that I suspect that Roose is going to fold into the Winter Apocalypse plot in the future.