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Lady Green

Mirri Maz Duur's Prophecy, none literal meaning.

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Someone mentioned in another thread that the Sun that rises in the east and sets in the west could represent Quentyn or Dorne itself. And that got me thinking, we know that prophecy shouldn't be taken literally, so what other things could Mirri Maz Durr's prophecy mean? And does this have an impact on what happened to Dany at the end of aDwD, presuming it is a miscarriage or menstruation, both of which mean she is now fertile again.

Prophecy:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Possible meanings:

The sun rises in the west and sets in the east

I do very much like the idea that this is Quentyn, who was born in the west and dies in the east. Alternatively this could be Dorne, or any Martell, as the sun is what represents them.

The seas go dry

The sea has been used before to symbolise the Ironborn, and so could it not again? The two possible meanings I could come up with are either that the Ironborn are defeated, or simply that the majority of the Ironborn have left the Iron Isles.

Mountains blow in the wind like leaves

We have a character called the Mountain that Rides. This could refer to the defeating of Gregor by Oberyn Martell, or his return as unGregor (as in he is bending/blowing to someone else's will). I guess it could also symbolise a future failure by unGregor, but given the ending of aDwD I suspect the event referenced has already happened.

When your womb quickens again and you bear a living child

This could very well be literal, when Dany has a child, though it could also refer to the birth of her dragons, or the birth of her people, her becoming a mother. Or it could refer to her plan/her dream coming true, people often refer to their plans as their child or brain child etc.

Then he will return, not before.

Ok, so I highly doubt that Drogo is going to return, unless it refers to Drogon, or even a child that Dany will name Drogo. I think that him returning would be a more spiritual thing, or it could mean the return of his Khaleesar, so his people returning. The other theory I had was that him returning would just mean that Dany would fall in love again.

Of course there always is a chance that this prophecy is just a load of crap, but any thoughts ?

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Of course there always is a chance that this prophecy is just a load of crap, but any thoughts ?

My take on it. Basically it is a big "Fuck you!" from somebody with cause thrice over. No need to make a prophecy out of it.

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Well, I can tell you what I've seen on this forum after nearly a year and what makes most sense to me. The prophecy is being fulfilled by events that have happened directly to Dany in Essos in ADWD.

The sun rising in the west and setting in the east is Quentyn coming from Dorne to meet her and dying in Meereen.

The sea going dry refers to the Dothraki sea which indeed is going dry compared to when Dany was last there in AGOT.

Mountains crumbling and blowing in the wind refers to the pyramids in Meereen that the dragons blew fire on causing them to turn to dust which then the wind picked up.

When her womb quickens refers to when Dany was wandering around in her last chapter in Dance and she ate some berries for food. After that she has some very heavy bleeding, much heavier than a normal menstrual cycle. The speculation I have seen is that Dany was indeed pregnant, that the berries she ate were some sort of abortifacient, and that she was having a miscarriage with that heavy bleeding.

I also believe that Drogo has returned to her in the form of Drogon. In fact, just after all this is when he returns to her and it appears that she will be able to tame him better now.

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My take on it. Basically it is a big "Fuck you!" from somebody with cause thrice over. No need to make a prophecy out of it.

That MMD was so annoying. She could have just said NO instead of wasting an entire page of the book with a prophecy which probably won`t even happen

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The sea going dry refers to the Dothraki sea which indeed is going dry compared to when Dany was last there in AGOT.

Mountains crumbling and blowing in the wind refers to the pyramids in Meereen that the dragons blew fire on causing them to turn to dust which then the wind picked up.

I hadn't considered either of those, they both make sense, I was just presuming it meant people because the first one appears to be, and we know people are identified by their sigils a lot, e.g. the Young Wolf, the Little Lion, 'my Bear' (Dany on Mormont) etc.

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Yeah that's true a lot of times the people are referred to by their sigils. Technically though the "Mountain" has a sigil of 3 black dogs so it's not his sigil, and mountain is more of a nickname because of his size. But the main reason why I don't think it refers to Gregor is because he has had no part in her story whatsoever so far.

The iron born as the sea running dry is interesting. That's a little closer to Dany's story as Victarion is on his way there right now, but I still think the Dothraki sea works better. I guess it depends on whether you think the prophecy has now been fulfilled or not as I don't see how Victarion or they Iron born have "run dry" yet.

I think Quathe's prophecy of the people coming to meet Dany refers specifically to people (the sun's son being Quentyn again for ex), whereas I don't think this prophecy so much refers only to people.

There were some more specific discussions about this in the ADWD subforum months ago but I can't remember specific thread names. Sorry!

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The Mountain hasn't had no part, he actually had a major part in her actually being anywhere near the throne in the first place.

Damn! I did try searching but nothing specific to just the prophecy/saying came up.

I'm still inclined to believe that the sea represents the Ironborn, they've been refered to it before after all.

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Well, okay yeah he did play a part in the rebellion but overall he was just one small part of many other events and actions that defeated the Targ rule. And by small I don't mean to imply that what he did to Aegon and Elia were not horrific, because they were, just that he was used as a tool by Tywin there and that's how I see his role in this whole thing. He's simply the bad dog that Tywin uses to attain his ends, but yes he was a part of it.

Ok, I found a thread here and that's the main one I was thinking of. I guess it was more than a few months ago, since it goes back to when Dance was first released. Also, I'm pretty sure the specific Dany chapter discussions in the ADWD subforum had some comments about it too, particularly the last chapter.

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I didn't think you were saying it wasn't that big a deal! The only issue I really have with the pyramids being the mountains is that they're not actually mountains, unless they were described as them at any point, in which case I am sold. Thanks I'll take a look :)

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From the other thread, mostly comments about the miscarriage/illness.

It is a very good interpretation - I like it. But just to add, the berries even if only "normally" toxic could have worked as abortificient, by being toxic to the whole body. And the scene does seem to imply miscarriage - though the whole scene was a bit strange to me, what grown woman finds blood in her tights and thinks ilness first thing? (yeah, even with the other illness)

I believe that it is quite common for a fetus to die if a woman injests something posionous, same way the fetus sends stem cells to damaged organs to repair them (the mother's organs that is).

She was bleeding, but it was only woman’s blood. The moon is still a crescent, though. How can that be? She tried to remember the last time she had bled. The last full moon? The one before? The one before that? No, it cannot have been so long as that. “I am the blood of the dragon,” she told the grass, aloud. She had had periods not too long ago. And it is implied she missed some periods and this in the wrong phase of the moon (not that is so crucially significative in real life. But I think GRRM is not too realistic about *this) so yeah, I think miscarriage caused by the berries (or water poisoning). Either berries being abortifacients like ran says, or just being a poison. Or the water being tainted with the plague (not likely, not in the middle of nothing, but just mentioning for completeness) and she surviving the plague due to Targaryens being very resistant to disease.

Maybe her barreness is just an illusion, and the giving birth to a living child doesn't even necessarily have to mean a child of her body, rather someone she sees as her child/sees her as their mother...so thats a vast majority of her followers.

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I think it's very plausible that the prophecy refers to Quentyn and the Dothraki sea (I have a very strong feeling that Dany will attack the Iron Islands so it could be that as well) but I don't think it refers to Gregor or the piramids, they have yet to blow in the winds like leaves, though that might yet be. Though of course the things MMD refers to may have yet to occur.

I don't know if the berries made her miscarry (Hizdahr's baby or Daario's?). If so, they were very quick to do so, don't you think?

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Elio and Linda do a great piece on it, can't find the link right now but basically they think:

Sun Rising in the West, setting in East = Doran plotting in Dorne and then Quentyn dying in Mereen

Sea Dry = Dany riding Drogon notices the Dothraki Sea is dying or drying up

Mountains blow like leave = Trickier but could mean the other 2 dragons destroying the pyramids in Mereen

Womb Quickens Again = Her last chapter she gets her period or miscarries, its doesnt say fully

That is when he will return = I think it means thats when Drogon (drogo) returned to her OR it could mean Victarion coming to save her.

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Well, I can tell you what I've seen on this forum after nearly a year and what makes most sense to me. The prophecy is being fulfilled by events that have happened directly to Dany in Essos in ADWD.

The sun rising in the west and setting in the east is Quentyn coming from Dorne to meet her and dying in Meereen.

The sea going dry refers to the Dothraki sea which indeed is going dry compared to when Dany was last there in AGOT.

Mountains crumbling and blowing in the wind refers to the pyramids in Meereen that the dragons blew fire on causing them to turn to dust which then the wind picked up.

When her womb quickens refers to when Dany was wandering around in her last chapter in Dance and she ate some berries for food. After that she has some very heavy bleeding, much heavier than a normal menstrual cycle. The speculation I have seen is that Dany was indeed pregnant, that the berries she ate were some sort of abortifacient, and that she was having a miscarriage with that heavy bleeding.

I also believe that Drogo has returned to her in the form of Drogon. In fact, just after all this is when he returns to her and it appears that she will be able to tame him better now.

exactly

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The seas going dry part recently made me think that maybe all the greyjoys will die... and just a complete crackpot here but the mountains blowing in the wind like leaves part could be the fall of the eyrie and the vale? Don't know why though haha.

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Someone mentioned in another thread that the Sun that rises in the east and sets in the west could represent Quentyn or Dorne itself. And that got me thinking, we know that prophecy shouldn't be taken literally, so what other things could Mirri Maz Durr's prophecy mean? And does this have an impact on what happened to Dany at the end of aDwD, presuming it is a miscarriage or menstruation, both of which mean she is now fertile again.

Prophecy:

Possible meanings:

The sun rises in the west and sets in the east

I do very much like the idea that this is Quentyn, who was born in the west and dies in the east. Alternatively this could be Dorne, or any Martell, as the sun is what represents them.

The seas go dry

The sea has been used before to symbolise the Ironborn, and so could it not again? The two possible meanings I could come up with are either that the Ironborn are defeated, or simply that the majority of the Ironborn have left the Iron Isles.

Mountains blow in the wind like leaves

We have a character called the Mountain that Rides. This could refer to the defeating of Gregor by Oberyn Martell, or his return as unGregor (as in he is bending/blowing to someone else's will). I guess it could also symbolise a future failure by unGregor, but given the ending of aDwD I suspect the event referenced has already happened.

When your womb quickens again and you bear a living child

This could very well be literal, when Dany has a child, though it could also refer to the birth of her dragons, or the birth of her people, her becoming a mother. Or it could refer to her plan/her dream coming true, people often refer to their plans as their child or brain child etc.

Then he will return, not before.

Ok, so I highly doubt that Drogo is going to return, unless it refers to Drogon, or even a child that Dany will name Drogo. I think that him returning would be a more spiritual thing, or it could mean the return of his Khaleesar, so his people returning. The other theory I had was that him returning would just mean that Dany would fall in love again.

Of course there always is a chance that this prophecy is just a load of crap, but any thoughts ?

The mountain called also have something to do with the Vale. There's a really nice quote from Mya Stone:

A mountain is not a man, though, and a stone is a mountain’s daughter. I trust my father, and I trust my mules. I won’t fall.

But maybe that's just me looking too much into it. I didn't mean about Mya Stone's character being the mountain, just the Vale.

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Take note that this prophecy rings in Dany's head and is mentioned four/five times in ADwD too. Easily the best prophecy in the series, seeing how for fifteen years, it's easily misconstrued as a giant 'fuck you' to Dany.

Who would have ever pieced it together?

-Quentyn is the sun

-Dothraki sea is the sea

-the pyramids are the mountains

-Khal Jhaqo is him

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Take note that this prophecy rings in Dany's head and is mentioned four/five times in ADwD too. Easily the best prophecy in the series, seeing how for fifteen years, it's easily misconstrued as a giant 'fuck you' to Dany. Who would have ever pieced it together? -Quentyn is the sun -Dothraki sea is the sea -the pyramids are the mountains -Khal Jhaqo is him

what Khal Jhaqo is who now???

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Well, since we're all assuming that the prophecy is truly a prophecy, and not just a spiteful thing to say--I tend to believe the former, just because it's way cooler--then how about this:

If Dany is supposed to bear a living child, and I do believe this is a literal thing because we have no 'womb' analogue we can go to with this, except for the Womb of the World, which I don't see 'quickening', then who is going to be the father?

I'm guessing that it won't be Daario, as his relationship with Dany is purely superficial. I also doubt it's going to be any Dothraki--the idea of it being the Dothraki comes up since it's the next thing happening after the mountains blowing in the wind and the sea going dry. I don't believe it'll be Jon, since his meeting with Dany (which I'm sure will happen at one point) will probably be in the end of ADOS. So... Jorah? Victarion? Tyrion? That's the best I think we can go. It's either Jorah, Victarion or Tyrion, who are the only major characters even close to Dany at the moment. It could also be Aegon, mind, fake or real as he is, but that would be strange since they're aunt and nephew.

Take note that this prophecy rings in Dany's head and is mentioned four/five times in ADwD too. Easily the best prophecy in the series, seeing how for fifteen years, it's easily misconstrued as a giant 'fuck you' to Dany.

Who would have ever pieced it together?

-Quentyn is the sun

-Dothraki sea is the sea

-the pyramids are the mountains

-Khal Jhaqo is him

Khal Jhaqo? I doubt Martin is going to make Jhaqo, who's one of Dany's most hated characters into the love of her life. Because he's Dothraki? I really can't believe that.

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The sea going dry could also refer to Victarion joining R'hllor, but I guess it doesn't really matter what the details are. Also, in ADWD, didn't Dany wake up with blood on her thighs? Maybe it was a miscarriage or something and she isn't actually barren? I don't know, I might be making this up.

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