[Sample] Arianne I, round 2

[Jon Icefyre]

Exactly! Which is why marrying Arianne would make much more sense than marrying Elia, since Arianne, heir to Sunspear, would cement an alliance with the Dornish and would ensure to Aegon that he would be able to rely on Dornish spears. However, marrying Elia brings Aegon nothing whatsoever, since she's a bastard and brings no land nor titles as her dowry. Not to mention that Aegon is waiting to marry Dany, since she brings him the most advantageous alliance.

No matter how you slice it, your Aegon/Elia ship just makes no sense whatsoever.

Elia is Doran's neice she not like a normal bastard Dorne/Doran treats her and her sisters like a normal Martell. If Aegon marrys Elia he will get Dornes support. It's not like he's gonna marry Elia and then Doran will decides to pull his support. Of course Doran would give Aegon his support if he married his brothers daughter and Dorne(who feircely loved Oberyn)goes where Doran goes. And if Doran wants Elia to marry Aegon then obviously Dorne's full support would come with marriage. Doran is the head of Dorne what he says/wants is the most important thing in Dorne for obvious reasons. If Arianne was the prospect for marriage she wouldn't be seeking to seduce JC she would be targeting Aegon. She's not gonna sleep with the hand of the king and then try to marry the actual king. Arianne wants Sunspear and Doran knows this. You still haven't answered my question in my earlier post of why bring a 14 year old Elia with Arianne? :

Doran himself said this was a very dangerous mission he was sending Arianne on so why bring 14 year old girl with them? Surely Doran could have sent a more sutiable female companion with Arianne thats closer to her age, why risk putting your 14 year old niece in danger when there's really no need to bring Elia with, and I can't see Ellaria wanting this either. This is a pretty important mission concerning Dorne's fate why bring a 14 year old girl? Unless there is an end game to bringing Elia. I just don't see the point of bringing Elia unless they're gonna use her

[Ice Turtle]

Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well.

this is a quote from ADwD, Doran obliviously met JC at least once more likely many more times, why he didn't tell Arianne anything about him?

[kingofashes]

That could also why Doran sent an ex who was in love with Arianne.

I wondered, and so did she, why bring the bastard of godsgrace? a man that the princess is still attracted to and had a past relationship with. Out of all the swords in Dorne, why him?

Because he will defend her with his life yes. But maybe it's something to do with ruining the chances between Aegon and Arianne.

Ok even I'm not convinced by that but there has to be a reason. It's a strange party heading for Aegon and you can bet Doran thought long and hard about every person he sends.

[Jon Icefyre]

@The Great Unwashed

Okay okay you've convinced me out of the Elia Aegon marriage thing lol no hard feelings :thumbsup:. But there has to be an important reason why she's there. Ellaria wanted to seperate her kids to keep them away from the carnage, but Doran sending Elia to go with Arianne to meet Aegon and JC would be leading her right into the creaters of the carnage. I still think you might be over estimating Aegon's own thoughts/method of ruling. He's young and has a lot of power young people in power do stupid things politically speaking when they fall for young women as Rhaegar and Robb Stark have shown us if aegon falls for Elia which i now admit is just a possibillity at best but if he does all bets are off.

[kingofashes]

Doran Martell did not pick names out of a hat. Everyone with Arianne has a reason to be.

[kingofashes]

1) Why does Doran trust Arianne with such an important mission when she totally botched her failed rebellion plot?

2) Why are the Sand Snakes so successful in using Oberyn's death as a pretext to go to war, when the circumstances under which he died are entirely above board and of his own making?

3) If the Dornish are so overwhelmingly convinced of Lannister guilt in the demise of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon, then why the hell didn't they declare for one of the usurpers, the most likely candidate being Robb, which would have guaranteed the demise of the Lannisters?

Anyway, I know I'm in the minority here, but the only interesting Dornlanders were Oberyn and Hotah, and one is dead and the other isn't even Dornish, so I try to get through the Dorne chapters as quickly as possible.

1. Good point and something I asked myself. I guess he's looking for a real chance a revenge so if he doesn't send the princess it would look like he doesn't belive Jon. And he knows Jon would be prickly about that. I dunno if thats good enough reason for sending your daughter into a hostage situation though. Marry or threaten to kill Arianne and the Dornish are on Aegons side so it was a pretty stupid thing to do, if you had doubts.

2. A dornish queen was raped and two children murderd. Thats a massive insult to the whole of Dorne. Never mind the red viper Dorne has been ready for a chance for revenge for years. Now the time has come and Doran doesn't seem to be doing anything. So Dorne was just the dude at the bar who keeps asking folk "what ye looking at?eh?" they were looking for a fight.

3. I know! the thing is Renly had a bigger army than Dany and therefore the best chance at revenge. He does admit that "no Dornish blood was spilled in the war of the five kings. Tell me is that something I should be proud of, or ashamed of?"

[Jon Icefyre]

3. I know! the thing is Renly had a bigger army than Dany and therefore the best chance at revenge. He does admit that "no Dornish blood was spilled in the war of the five kings. Tell me is that something I should be proud of, or shamed of?

Doran was actually pretty close to siding Dorne with Renly but once Renly died and Tyrion made the offer of Myrcella's hand in marriage it put Doran in a tough spot. I still think he could have sided with Robb Stark but I guess it might have been too difficult to join an army of the North with the Dornish all the way south I guess he thought gaining Myrcella as a hostage was the safer route.

[Jon Icefyre]

Personally, nothing any of the Dornish do makes any sense to me. To wit:

1) Why does Doran trust Arianne with such an important mission when she totally botched her failed rebellion plot?

2) Why are the Sand Snakes so successful in using Oberyn's death as a pretext to go to war, when the circumstances under which he died are entirely above board and of his own making?

3) If the Dornish are so overwhelmingly convinced of Lannister guilt in the demise of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon, then why the hell didn't they declare for one of the usurpers, the most likely candidate being Robb, which would have guaranteed the demise of the Lannisters?

Agreed I actually argued the point about the sand snakes with a friend of mine and her reasoning was that Oberyn would have never been put in the situation of nominating himself for a trial by combat if the Lannisters would have given Dorne the justice they rightfully deserved to begin with. Oberyn did what he did because the Lannisters made it pretty clear they weren't planning on giving the Martells their justice (which was actually part of the marriage agreement) anytime soon. So Oberyn took matters into his own hands in order to get some justice for Elia and her children. Which again is his own fault but I understand Dorne's frustration a lot more after my friend explained this to me. Arianne, the Sand snakes, and Dorne in general were just at a boiling point with all the Lannister bs.

[Jon Icefyre]

I suppose that makes more sense, but it still doesn't change my perception of the Dornish as a group of hot-headed nitwits, Doran excluded, who is so prosaic and unexcitable that he makes glacier-watching sound exciting.

Hahaha well im a Dornish lover but I completely understand and see your point. I feel bad for Doran even though he's only a high lord GRRM definitely seems to give him the pressure of a king.

[GoldenVale]

I feel an overwhelming desire to start kicking puppies.

As I have already explained, whether Aegon is real doesn't really matter to the Dornish. What matters is if Jon Connington is real. If Arianne can determine that JC is the real JC, then they have a basis for arguing that Aegon is the real Aegon since there is no real way to determine if Aegon is the real Aegon. That is why she is contemplating seducing JC, so that she can find out if he is the real deal.

And you seem to have an extremely naive view of sexual politics. Why wouldn't Arianne seduce JC in order to get in good with Aegon? Stuff like that is fairly common. Think about groupies sleeping with roadies so they can get back stage to meet the band. Not to mention that I am not advocating that Arianne will marry Aegon...I'm simply arguing that if Doran wants to seal the alliance with a marriage pact, Arianne is an infinitely more likely prospect for marriage for Aegon than is Elia.

And Elia may very well have been sent along to seduce Aegon...I'm not disputing that. What I am disputing is that seduction must necessarily lead to marriage.

As for an alternative explanation for why Elia was sent along, I direct you to...the sample chapter in question:

I agree with the notion that marriage doesn't have to be the absolute outcome if and when Dorne allies with JonCon. I think it'd been clear if JonCon had any such intentions and even d he does I think he himself would hold off on the marriage prospects. Although he didn't like Elia I think his closeness to the crown or at least his "Silver Prince" would give him a much better understanding of Dorne's strength. The only thing he'd get out of a Dorne marriage is symbolism (Aegon marrying a Martell like his father did). I think even if Arianne offered he'd hold back on accepting (or declining).

I'm conflicted with the choice of word being "seduction" though. From Elia's description she doesn't seem the type, although as I write this I'm reminded of the second Arianne chapter where she's supposedly caught necking in some caves. Regardless isn't it just as likely that her purpose could be more of a fostering? Simply a "play date" to see if the two get along first.

As for an alternative explanation for why Elia was sent along, I direct you to...the sample chapter in question:

If it was for her own protection why not just leave her at the Water Gardens or locked in a tower in Dorne?

[Jon Icefyre]

I'm conflicted with the choice of word being "seduction" though. From Elia's description she doesn't seem the type, although as I write this I'm reminded of the second Arianne chapter where she's supposedly caught necking in some caves. Regardless isn't it just as likely that her purpose could be more of a fostering? Simply a "play date" to see if the two get along first.

I don't think a mission as dangerous as Arianne's is exactly the perfect time time to set up a "play date" involving a 14 year old girl.

[The Real Summer Islander]

first of all... in reply to the original post..

in no way does it imply that jon connington is gay.. i dont even know how you could see that from that paragraph..

secondly was this

The third thing is Doran's suspicion on Aegon and worry of Quentyn:

Fire and blood was what Jon Connington (if indeed it was him) was offering as well. Or was it? "He comes with sellswords, but no dragons," Prince Doran had told her, the night the raven came. "The Golden Company is the best and largest of the free companies, but ten thousand mercenaries cannot hope to win the Seven Kingdoms. Elia's son... I would weep for joy if some part of my sister had survived, but what proof do we have that this is Aegon?" His voice broke when he said that. "Where are the dragons?" he asked. "Where is Daenerys?" and Arianne knew that he was really saying, "Where is my son?"

As expected getting Doran's support won't be as easy as JC expected and wow I have a bad feeling about Doran's reaction towards Dany once he finds out his son is dead.

The fourth thing that stuck out and is probably the biggest forshadowing we've seen in the series concerning the battle for the throne between Dany, Aegon, and possibly Jon snow:

"Once we know beyond a doubt whether these be friends or foes, my father will know what to do," the princess said.

It was then that pasty, pudgy Teora raised her eyes from the creamcakes on her plate. "It is dragons."

"Dragons?" said her mother. "Teora, don't be mad."

"I'm not. They're coming."

"How could you possibly know that?" her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice. "One of your little dreams?"

Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died."

Ya i think there will be a second dance of dragons war and the last of the Targs will duke it out with each other in some form or another in Westeros before this is all over.

honestly i believe both of these things say that there will be a redo of the previous Dance of Dragons obviously. i think these two parts were the most important info of the chapter... also apparently Jc takin storms end.

[The Real Summer Islander]

Personally, nothing any of the Dornish do makes any sense to me. To wit:

1) Why does Doran trust Arianne with such an important mission when she totally botched her failed rebellion plot?

2) Why are the Sand Snakes so successful in using Oberyn's death as a pretext to go to war, when the circumstances under which he died are entirely above board and of his own making?

3) If the Dornish are so overwhelmingly convinced of Lannister guilt in the demise of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon, then why the hell didn't they declare for one of the usurpers, the most likely candidate being Robb, which would have guaranteed the demise of the Lannisters?

Anyway, I know I'm in the minority here, but the only interesting Dornlanders were Oberyn and Hotah, and one is dead and the other isn't even Dornish, so I try to get through the Dorne chapters as quickly as possible.

as to the answer of number one.. thats easy.. arianne is the heir to dorne, and doran does in fact know he hasnt got a lot of time.. arianne needs to be told everything at this point..

as to two, remember, oberyn was their father.. put yourself in those shoes..

as to three, basically as soon as stannis and renly declared for the iron throne, tyrion, with all of his wits, sent myrcella there to ensure loyalty... its all about timing as i remember him talking about dorne being unsure of who to ally themselves with.

[Jon Icefyre]

first of all... in reply to the original post..

in no way does it imply that jon connington is gay.. i dont even know how you could see that from that paragraph

Ya when I said confirmation I meant to us readers(not the characters in the book at this point) that have been sepculating JC's sexual orentation based on the info we already had on him before this sample chapter, and now when you add this I think most fans would consider it confirmed.

I doubt she had came to that conclusion. I think "Jon Icefyre" meant that to us the reader there's definitely no chance he isn't gay.

Arianne probably just thinks that he's a proud, prude.

@ Ser Poopies it has already been established what I really meant by this. I don't mean that that sample chapter alone is the only thing that gives confirmation that JC is gay. I'm talking to the readers that have suspected JC was gay based on the info we have of him before the sample chapter and the evidence/suspicions that have been disscussed in multiple topics on this forum in the past. So to the majority of readers that already had strong opinions that JC is gay before the sample chapter was even released and have discussed their opinions on multiple group topics on this forum when you add this sample chapter yes it pretty much confirms JC is gay.

[Bastard of Boston]

While on the subject of JC's sexuality and Arianne's mention of her seduction ploy, I do think the theories I've seen of Daemon being sent to seduce JC are a huge stretch. Arianne considering it is one thing -- she's used the ploy in the past, and her mulling it over in her POV is just her considering every option she has. But, just because Daemon is a man (who might/might not be bisexual) and JC is a man (who is probably gay), I think it's a fairly large reach that -- pow -- they're totally going to do it. For one, I'd like to think Doran is more nuanced in his tactics than sending a penis to treat with JC. It's pretty sophomoric and would be hugely presumptuous on Doran's part. Moreover, this is only considering Daemon is indeed into schlong.

[The Real Summer Islander]

idk.. from the novels i just got the understanding that jconnington was rhaegars best friend and not a gay friend... but maybe grrm means something else when he says recieving your knighthood from him was the highest honor lol...

[The Real Summer Islander]

@ Ser Poopies it has already been established what I really meant by this. I don't mean that that sample chapter alone is the only thing that gives confirmation that JC is gay. I'm talking to the readers that have suspected JC was gay based on the info we have of him before the sample chapter and the evidence/suspicions that have been disscussed in multiple topics on this forum in the past. So to the majority of readers that already had strong opinions that JC is gay before the sample chapter was even released and have discussed their opinions on multiple group topics on this forum when you add this sample chapter yes it pretty much confirms JC is gay.

bwt i still disagree with this. also, meant to add this as an edit to my previous post..

[Lord Godric]

This chapter alone was enough to convince me that TWoW is the book I've been waiting for since ASoS. All the storylines finally seem to be condensing and that means some high quality action. I'm very excited, although I do wish Martin would give some kind of hint as to how far he is along. I understand his reasoning to keep it close to his chest, but still...

[bemused]

idk.. from the novels i just got the understanding that jconnington was rhaegars best friend and not a gay friend... but maybe grrm means something else when he says recieving your knighthood from him was the highest honor lol...

I think the implication has been that Connington was in love with Rhaegar , but Rhaegar only considered him a friend and was, himself , of a hetero persuasion.

( Maybe a bit of a twist on Brienne and Renly? )

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I think the implication has been that Connington was in love with Rhaegar , but Rhaegar only considered him a friend and was, himself , of a hetero persuasion.

( Maybe a bit of a twist on Brienne and Renly? )

Agreed, Rhaegar was all about the ladies, but he still held Jon in high esteem. I wonder if he knew? Personally, I think Connington suffered in silence and would never have had the guts to approach the "Crown Prince" in such a way.