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9 horrifyingly botched police raids: How do we keep this from happening?


Ser Scot A Ellison

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Sturm,

The same incorrect address forcebly entered 50 times? How can that ever be justified? How are you not commiting felony assault if you forcibly enter someone's home and shoot them based on a misread warrant? Your authority to enter is based on the warrant. If that's not the case police have power to forcibly enter anyone's house without consequence. Tell me that's not what you are advocating, and if not what are you saying?

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If you accidentally enter the wrong residence in pursuit of a suspect, you will be charged with a felony.

If I accidentally drive up the wrong lane of traffic in an attempt to get to my destination, I'm charged with reckless driving. I don't get a "whoopsies".

If you enter the wrong residence even though you were given an order to do so and handed a warrant stating so, you will still be charged with a felony, not just the guy who screwed up the warrant.

If you enter a residence that is not the residence listed on a warrant? Absolutely. Is it really too much to ask to look at the warrant you are serving before you serve it?

I don't really agree with the rest of that stuff.

Also this:

Well, considering how badly our existing crop of police forces have abused the powers with which the public has invested them, I'd say it's high time to start revoking significant amounts of that power until they can get their shit together. I also throw in here corrupt, back slapping DA's and judges running warrant mills.
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If you enter a residence that is not the residence listed on a warrant? Absolutely. Is it really too much to ask to look at the warrant you are serving before you serve it?

Not at all what I was saying. Read it again please. If someone else screwed up the warrant, you went to the address on the warrant, but it was the wrong one, should you go to jail for that?

The point of my list was that why in the world would any sane person sign up for police work if those were the rules you would face. You would end up with no police, having to pay police a whole lot more for the gamble of doing the job, or end up with an entire police force of truely insane individuals.

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Not at all what I was saying. Read it again please. If someone else screwed up the warrant, you went to the address on the warrant, but it was the wrong one, should you go to jail for that?

The point of my list was that why in the world would any sane person sign up for police work if those were the rules you would face. You would end up with no police, having to pay police a whole lot more for the gamble of doing the job, or end up with an entire police force of truely insane individuals.

If you do it 50 times? Yes.

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Sturm,

The same incorrect address forcebly entered 50 times? How can that ever be justified? How are you not commiting felony assault if you forcibly enter someone's home and shoot them based on a misread warrant? Your authority to enter is based on the warrant. If that's not the case police have power to forcibly enter anyone's house without consequence. Tell me that's not what you are advocating, and if not what are you saying?

I wasn't defending the 50 times incident at all, something very rotten seems to be going on there. But I don't have the information to speak about it.

If you are driving down the street doing nothing wrong, a person steps in front of you nowhere near a sidewalk, and you kill them, should you be charged with a crime? No you shouldn't. And you aren't without other circumstances. Now, if you are speeding down the street while drunk and the same happens, you are charged with Manslaughter (murder with no intention), since you were doing something reckless and wrong when you accidentally killed someone. You are only charged with Murder if you admit to seeing the pedestrian and purposely drive your car right at him.

Why shouldn't police be given the same protections?

I enter the correct residence on a legal warrant. A bad man shoots at me with a big gun. I shoot back. One of the bullets misses the bad guy, goes through a wall, and kills an innocent in the next room. Like the law abiding motorist above, I wasn't doing anything wrong, but something very bad happened, I shouldn't go to jail. Let's say I got the warrant and my SOP requires me to obtain a photograph of the residence to verify the house before serving it. I say screw the extra time to get the photo, go serve the warrant, hit the wrong house. The resident is awakened, alarmed, grabs a shotgun, I kill him. Like the drunken driver, I did not intend to kill an innocent, but did something reckless or wrong. I should be charged with Manslaughter, never Murder. I get a warrant for a house, go in, and see Greedo the Killer Pimp that I hate. He doesn't have a gun. I shoot him out of pure hatred. I should be charged with Murder.

Police should face the same level of justice as every other citizen. EQUAL justice. Not less. But also not more.

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I wasn't defending the 50 times incident at all, something very rotten seems to be going on there. But I don't have the information to speak about it.

If you are driving down the street doing nothing wrong, a person steps in front of you nowhere near a sidewalk, and you kill them, should you be charged with a crime? No you shouldn't. And you aren't without other circumstances. Now, if you are speeding down the street while drunk and the same happens, you are charged with Manslaughter (murder with no intention), since you were doing something reckless and wrong when you accidentally killed someone. You are only charged with Murder if you admit to seeing the pedestrian and purposely drive your car right at him.

Why shouldn't police be given the same protections?

I enter the correct residence on a legal warrant. A bad man shoots at me with a big gun. I shoot back. One of the bullets misses the bad guy, goes through a wall, and kills an innocent in the next room. Like the law abiding motorist above, I wasn't doing anything wrong, but something very bad happened, I shouldn't go to jail. Let's say I got the warrant and my SOP requires me to obtain a photograph of the residence to verify the house before serving it. I say screw the extra time to get the photo, go serve the warrant, hit the wrong house. The resident is awakened, alarmed, grabs a shotgun, I kill him. Like the drunken driver, I did not intend to kill an innocent, but did something reckless or wrong. I should be charged with Manslaughter, never Murder. I get a warrant for a house, go in, and see Greedo the Killer Pimp that I hate. He doesn't have a gun. I shoot him out of pure hatred. I should be charged with Murder.

Police should face the same level of justice as every other citizen. EQUAL justice. Not less. But also not more.

Is anyone asking for the polic3 to face more punishment than the average citizen? All anyone wants is equality under the law,

Right now they have so much privilege they might as well be our feudal overlords. No one should be surprised when this privilege is abused

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Not at all what I was saying. Read it again please. If someone else screwed up the warrant, you went to the address on the warrant, but it was the wrong one, should you go to jail for that?

The point of my list was that why in the world would any sane person sign up for police work if those were the rules you would face. You would end up with no police, having to pay police a whole lot more for the gamble of doing the job, or end up with an entire police force of truely insane individuals.

Your list was a ridiculous strawman. Given the powers that are given to the police, the least the population can expect is that they obey some serious legal, regulational and ethical guidelines. Nobody is expecting them not to commit errors, but they cannot use that as an excuse to grossly overstepping their bonds or act carelessly. As anybody else, and more than anybody else, because of the nature of their job. In particular while on duty they are not the ordinary joe just strolling down the streets, they are representatives of the authorities, their word or their jugements do not weight the same as ordinary people in the face of justice, and they also have a duty to keep an exemplary conduct, because of how it reflects on the local authorities as a whole.

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Ok true very relevant story time.

A young Sturn is at a SRT (aka SWAT) briefing. The team leader and detective discuss the search warrant of a residence for a meth dealer who is known to possess guns. I find out that I'm going to lead about half of the team to hit the house while the other half with the team leader hits an external garage at the same time. I think I was only a Corporal then. Our team is not a full time one. We train about once every 3 months due to man-power and money problems.

I'm excited, adrenalin pumping, but also worried. I'm in charge of half of the team on this one, a first time thing. There is a gun involved. I don't want to screw up and get any of my friends killed. I'm worried about timing the hit on the house to coincide with the other team hitting the garage. I'm trying to ensure the guys in my element know what each will do. With little time to prepare, we are off to serve the warrant since UC guys doing surveillance say now is the time.

I've been given an address. Nothing else. We approach the house. I'm worried about spacing, the right equipment up front, being quiet, has anyone noticed us through a window, have we approached too slow/quick for the other team hitting the garage, looking for someone with a gun. It's dark. Addresses aren't in glow-in-the-dark or well lighted in this part of town. I've never been to the house on the warrant, don't know what it looks like. I've approached a house believing it was it. I'm getting ready to tell the ram and shield to step forward, but luckily contol my excitement and realize I'm one house away from the target. I whisper, "Wrong house", and motion to go to the right one next door. Splinters, broken glass, a flash bang, and 30 seconds later we have the bad guy, guns, and drugs in custody.

Fast forward a decade. I'm the guy in charge of the team now. Partially due to my past experiences and desires, we are allowed training once per month. Recognition of the target address is confirmed by driving by it if time is allowed. If not, Google maps and photographs of the front of the house are a must.

What if I hadn't contained my excitement, looked around, and noticed I was at the wrong address 10 years ago? Should I have been charged with Burglary and Assault, both of which require actual intention to commit in my State?

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I enter the correct residence on a legal warrant. A bad man shoots at me with a big gun. I shoot back. One of the bullets misses the bad guy, goes through a wall, and kills an innocent in the next room. Like the law abiding motorist above, I wasn't doing anything wrong, but something very bad happened, I shouldn't go to jail.

Yes you bloody well should! Firing a gun when you can't see where the bullet will end up and there are innocents present is unacceptably reckless at best. If you believe there's a serious possibility of a firefight breaking out, evacuate the building before going in. If you're not expecting to be shot at, don't bring a gun.

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Not at all what I was saying. Read it again please. If someone else screwed up the warrant, you went to the address on the warrant, but it was the wrong one, should you go to jail for that?

The point of my list was that why in the world would any sane person sign up for police work if those were the rules you would face. You would end up with no police, having to pay police a whole lot more for the gamble of doing the job, or end up with an entire police force of truely insane individuals.

I guess it would be up to you. Do you take the fall for serving a false warrant or testify against the guy on the additional charges of fraud and inciting violence?

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Sturn, are you familiar with the sad case of the Polish immigrant in Vancouver who was essentially lost and wandering around for hours, and the Mounties who came and tasered him over and over until he died of a heart attack? They lied through their teeth about what happened, until it turned out someone in the waiting area had video'd the whole thing on their cell phone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dzieka%C5%84ski_Taser_incident

That incident utterly disgusted Canadians across the country, not to mention the nation of Poland. There's a pretty firm belief police will lie their asses off if they do anything wrong, and in the end you get the attitudes expressed in this thread.

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Is anyone asking for the polic3 to face more punishment than the average citizen? All anyone wants is equality under the law,

Charging someone with Burglary and Assault for entering the wrong house accidentally with no intention to commit either crime, IS more punishment if the police were doing everything else legally and rightfully.

So yes, look up thread, some were suggesting unequality under law. And yes I've personally seen police charged with crimes and get sentences that someone else would not have been jailed for when doing the exact same thing. Truth be told I'm kinda fine with that. I would actually be somewhat for a cop who actually committed a crime (with the usual intent requirement) being sentenced more harshly. What I'm completely against of course is being charged with crimes that an average citizen would never be charged for at all if someone somehow placed in the same situation. Cops of course are put in situations that civilians are not. So, I made the killing a pedestrian vs. serving a warrant comparison to explain my point.

One more time, I'm not defending the 50 entry incident.

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