New Game of Thrones Video Log

[Lord Varys]

Perhaps, but for what purpose? Talisa has no claim to Winterfell, nor would the Lords of the North rally behind her. She would be utterly useless as a tool to claim Winterfell for House Bolton. Especially since the time line is all wrong. Tywin first intended to give Winterfell to Tyrion and Sansa. He only needed Fake Arya and Roose after Sansa's disappearance and Tyrion's trial. Fake Arya only enters the story after Joffrey's death.

So we would have to assume that Walder Frey keeps Talisa alive for quite some time before anyone could think about using her to secure Winterfell for the Boltons? That's very unlikely. Especially since they actually intended to keep Catelyn alive.

In my opinion, there are only two options left:

1. Continue the 'tragic' clichéd love story to its ultimate end (i.e. allow Robb and Talisa to die together).

2. Reactivate the whole mole sub plot around Robb's queen. Make Talisa a spy/agent on Tywin's payroll who nevertheless ends up being caught in her web and is killed during the Red Wedding (because Tywin forgot to tell Lord Walder about it).

On the overall story:

I'm happy to hear that season 3 is going to become much more low scale and 'personal'. There are no major events happening in the first half of ASoS, and season 3 really should reflect that. It won't hurt if they give us a break, take time introducing the new characters, show us some real subtlety when depicting intrigue and plots, and finally deliver us some historical background information (on the Rebellion, Rhaegar, Lyanna, the Martells, Azor Ahai, the prince that was promised etc.).

[protar]

Perhaps, but for what purpose? Talisa has no claim to Winterfell, nor would the Lords of the North rally behind her. She would be utterly useless as a tool to claim Winterfell for House Bolton. Especially since the time line is all wrong. Tywin first intended to give Winterfell to Tyrion and Sansa. He only needed Fake Arya and Roose after Sansa's disappearance and Tyrion's trial. Fake Arya only enters the story after Joffrey's death.

So we would have to assume that Walder Frey keeps Talisa alive for quite some time before anyone could think about using her to secure Winterfell for the Boltons? That's very unlikely. Especially since they actually intended to keep Catelyn alive.

In my opinion, there are only two options left:

1. Continue the 'tragic' clichéd love story to its ultimate end (i.e. allow Robb and Talisa to die together).

2. Reactivate the whole mole sub plot around Robb's queen. Make Talisa a spy/agent on Tywin's payroll who nevertheless ends up being caught in her web and is killed during the Red Wedding (because Tywin forgot to tell Lord Walder about it).

On the overall story:

I'm happy to hear that season 3 is going to become much more low scale and 'personal'. There are no major events happening in the first half of ASoS, and season 3 really should reflect that. It won't hurt if they give us a break, take time introducing the new characters, show us some real subtlety when depicting intrigue and plots, and finally deliver us some historical background information (on the Rebellion, Rhaegar, Lyanna, the Martells, Azor Ahai, the prince that was promised etc.).

Talisa would have a vague claim to the north, being Robb's bride. I mean even in the books Ramsay claims Hornwood lands by marrying Lady Hornwood, even though she's a Manderly by birth. Once the Bolton's are in control, both fake Arya and potentially Talisa are simply excuses for legitimacy for PR reasons.

[Lord Varys]

But then, Talisa is a nobody in the North. Lady Hornwood was at least a Northerner herself, not some foreigner without friends or power base. And as Dowager Lady Hornwood may actually have the right to administer her late husbands estate as long as King Robb had decided who would inherit Hornwood. There was no obvious heir left in the Hornwood case (just as there seems to be no Rosby heir left right now).

But Robb has direct heirs, and Talisa is none of them. Since the Starks and the Northmen did not learn about the fact that the Lannisters had lost Arya in season 2, my guess is that they will give us a fake Arya eventually. She can easily be introduced in season 4, some time before she is chosen to play 'fake Arya'. Ros may very well train her on behalf of Tywin and/or Littlefinger.

[Darryk]

Perhaps, but for what purpose? Talisa has no claim to Winterfell, nor would the Lords of the North rally behind her. She would be utterly useless as a tool to claim Winterfell for House Bolton. Especially since the time line is all wrong. Tywin first intended to give Winterfell to Tyrion and Sansa. He only needed Fake Arya and Roose after Sansa's disappearance and Tyrion's trial. Fake Arya only enters the story after Joffrey's death.

So we would have to assume that Walder Frey keeps Talisa alive for quite some time before anyone could think about using her to secure Winterfell for the Boltons? That's very unlikely. Especially since they actually intended to keep Catelyn alive.

In my opinion, there are only two options left:

1. Continue the 'tragic' clichéd love story to its ultimate end (i.e. allow Robb and Talisa to die together).

2. Reactivate the whole mole sub plot around Robb's queen. Make Talisa a spy/agent on Tywin's payroll who nevertheless ends up being caught in her web and is killed during the Red Wedding (because Tywin forgot to tell Lord Walder about it).

On the overall story:

I'm happy to hear that season 3 is going to become much more low scale and 'personal'. There are no major events happening in the first half of ASoS, and season 3 really should reflect that. It won't hurt if they give us a break, take time introducing the new characters, show us some real subtlety when depicting intrigue and plots, and finally deliver us some historical background information (on the Rebellion, Rhaegar, Lyanna, the Martells, Azor Ahai, the prince that was promised etc.).

They need to balance catering to fans of the book with those that haven't read it, though. I think the general audience will want some action at the beginning.

Fortunately they can provide that with the White Walker assault on the encampment, Jaime's duel with Brienne and Jon's first encounter with Mance. Think with all of those the audience will be hooked again and the show can get down to some character development and (hopefully) background information on Rhaegar etc.

Really hoping they show Jaime's flashbacks to Kings Landing during Aerys reign.

[protar]

But then, Talisa is a nobody in the North. Lady Hornwood was at least a Northerner herself, not some foreigner without friends or power base. And as Dowager Lady Hornwood may actually have the right to administer her late husbands estate as long as King Robb had decided who would inherit Hornwood. There was no obvious heir left in the Hornwood case (just as there seems to be no Rosby heir left right now).

But Robb has direct heirs, and Talisa is none of them. Since the Starks and the Northmen did not learn about the fact that the Lannisters had lost Arya in season 2, my guess is that they will give us a fake Arya eventually. She can easily be introduced in season 4, some time before she is chosen to play 'fake Arya'. Ros may very well train her on behalf of Tywin and/or Littlefinger.

But like I say, by the time we get to that point, the Boltons will be in charge of the north no matter what, and Talisa would simply be an excuse. And as of the end of S3/the Start of S4 all of Robb's heirs will be dead or missing. Talisa will be the only person with any tenuous link to Robb.

The northmen don't really need "Arya" to drive them to fighting the Boltons, the injustice of the situation, and the northern folk slaughtered in the RW is enough. Nor is the time line a problem: At the RW, Frey might want to kill Talisa, but Bolton is more practical and realises she has some potential worth. Then in S3/4 Sansa disappears so Roose takes Talisa north and marries her to Ramsay.

[Kasrith]

WHAAAAAAAAT

I didn't know about this theory.

On the one hand it's really weird since she's like 30 but on the other, we didn't get Jeyne Poole did we? But from that logic anyone could be the fake Arya, even Ros. I think it's more likely they'll just get a random girl, unless they hurry up and introduce someone for the viewers to care about

Ros was already in Winterfell (in the show), and the North remembers.

Talisa doesn't make sense for similar reasons, people from all over will know her as Robb's wife, and for those who don't she's way too old.

[Lord Varys]

In my opinion, season 3 will resemble season 1 much more than season 2. They have way too many stories to tell this season to give us much action (especially since there won't be any battle on screen).

1. Beyond the Wall:

- Jon and Mance, later Jon and Ygritte on their way south

- Samwell and Mormont until they reach Craster's, then Samwell and Gilly until they find Bran

2. In the North:

- Bran/Osha, later Bran/the Reeds, and perhaps also Osha/Rickon for a few scenes

- Theon and Ramsay in the Dreadfort (it has been confirmed that Theon will be in season 3)

3. In the Riverlands:

- Robb, Talisa, and Catelyn

- introduction of Riverrun and the Tullys

- reintroduction of House Frey

- the Brotherhood without Banners

- Arya, Gendry, and Hot Pie

- Jaime and Brienne

- Roose Bolton and the conquest of Harrenhal

- introduction of Qyburn

4. In King's Landing:

- a proper introduction of House Tyrell and Lady Olenna

- Tyrion and Shae

- Tywin, Tyrion, and Cersei (Lannister family business)

- Pycelle and Tywin

- Varys and Littlefinger (the Ros business indicates that they are going to clash)

- Sansa, Dontos, Littlefinger, Margaery, and Olenna

- Joffrey being an ass!

- general plotting stuff

5. On Dragonstone:

- Davos's rescue and incarceration

- introduction of Stannis's family (Selyse and Shireen)

- Davos, Mel, and Stannis doing stuff

6. In Slaver's Bay:

- Dany and Jorah

- introduction of Barristan Selmy as Whitebeard (if he uses a disguise)

- introduction of Astapor, the Unsullied, the slavers, Missandei etc.

- Sacking of Meereen

- introduction of Daario, other sellswords, and the Yunkai'i

That's plenty of stuff to get very far this season. That's why they split the whole thing. Season 2 feels way to rushed from time to time, especially in those episodes where pretty much everyone just gets a scene to be there. In season 3 they will be able to take time for their characters. For all of them.

On the Talisa thing:

It would be possible, but I still doubt they'll do it. The time line problem would be why on earth Tywin would not demand Talisa as hostage after the Red Wedding happened? He is going to around until the end of season 4. Without his consent Roose could not secure Talisa as bride for Ramsay. And this whole thing would change Theon's whole ADwD arc. Why would the Boltons need him present at the marriage? Why would Talisa trust Theon? Why would Theon want to save Robb's widow, a woman he never knew? And most importantly, I don't want to see the Talisa character being tortured and turned into a meek and obedient little house wife. That's what Fake Arya is supposed to be, and Talisa is pretty much a complete antithesis to this.

[protar]

On the Talisa thing:

It would be possible, but I still doubt they'll do it. The time line problem would be why on earth Tywin would not demand Talisa as hostage after the Red Wedding happened? He is going to around until the end of season 4. Without his consent Roose could not secure Talisa as bride for Ramsay. And this whole thing would change Theon's whole ADwD arc. Why would the Boltons need him present at the marriage? Why would Talisa trust Theon? Why would Theon want to save Robb's widow, a woman he never knew? And most importantly, I don't want to see the Talisa character being tortured and turned into a meek and obedient little house wife. That's what Fake Arya is supposed to be, and Talisa is pretty much a complete antithesis to this.

I'm not getting what your problem with the timeline is: Talisa is captured at the RW, Roose keeps her as a hostage, Sansa vanishes in PW, Tywin and Roose set up a marriage between Talisa and Ramsay to solidify northern rule, then we get Theon's ADWD arc. Where is the problem? Talisa wouldn't have to be sent to Tywin, Roose could keep her no problem.

The changes to Theon's arc would be pretty minimal. He wouldn't be needed as a witness to the wedding, Ramsay could simply take him along to continue toying with him. Talisa wouldn't trust him at first, but there is no reason Theon couldn't gain her trust. Theon would want to help Talisa to try and make up for his treason against the Starks. Aside from a sight change to character interactions, the plot line would remain the same.

As for your last point, personal opinions on characters don't have much bearing on what's best for the plot tbh.

As much as I dislike Talisa I've always been of the opinion that some changes are necessary for the show, especially when it comes to compressing the complex plotlines. Talisa taking the role of fake Arya is this, and helps to make up for the damage she's done. It gives us a character we already know, the other alternative is an asspull, and it also avoids trouble with sex and underage characters.

[Nezzer]

I'd prefer if they introduced a new character to play fake Arya. Theon could just meet her and say she was a friend of Sansa's and daughter of Ned's steward. They could have a chat about her backstory, about how she was captured and all that. That way, the viewers will care about her if done right. It would work better when Jon gets involved with Stannis's war on the Boltons.

[boojam]

That's interesting if it's true about the law... and I agree that they probably won't cut the scenes, whoever they go with. I think Jon and the lords won't mind as much as they would have if it was Arya. With Robb dead, she's not the queen anymore, and they have never even met her.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing how they manage their way out of this conundrum :cheers:

No spoiler needed.

It has been known on this forum for , what, three years now that:

1) Indeed actors , by way of most European laws, under a certain age cannot be in 'adult' scenes.

The main reason all of GRRM middle ages template ages are gone for the kids.

2) Labor laws only allow actors under a certain age to work so many hours a day, unlike the adults they can not do , say 12 or 18 hrs worth of work.

I am not sure how much this applies to many of the main 'child' actors who have now turned 15 -17 years old, but I think there are still restrictions.

Has anyone commented that Maisie Williams and Isaac Hempstead-Wright are now really starting to look like middle teens.

[Padraig]

Off the top of my head there seems to be 4 possibilities about the fate of Talisa.

1) She doesn't go to the wedding as in the books. She may accompany Robb for a longer part of the journey but that's different.

2) She may die at the wedding.

3) She may go and escape from the wedding (i'd laugh at that).

4) She may go and be taken captive at the wedding.

I'm not sure why there is so much focus on the last of those possibilities. No reason to believe that's more possible that the others.

The idea seems to be that to simplify things they may combine Talisa and fake Arya but while they have combined characters, they are also happy to kill off characters to simplify things. Unlike some things, fake Arya is not a complicated idea to deal with. In fact, its a very simple idea and that's why I think it will be left in the story. It shows how clever the antagonists are.

The idea is also that Talisa would re-inforce the Bolton's claim. That's very arguable though since Robb will be derided because of this marriage. Thus, marrying Talisa may in fact backfire on Ramsay. It will make his claim weaker (i.e. "marrying a foreign so-and-so").

They don't focus on fake Arya been abused in the books. They don't have to in the TV series. It will be shocking enough to see the effects. That's all that is required. So the underage aspect is a red-herring. There will be enough torture scenes featuring Theon. We don't need more. And fake Arya is a small role, so no need to worry about working hours.

I can't say for sure Talisa wouldn't marry Ramsay but there is very flimsy evidence to say that she will also.

Lord Varys, the only thing I see missing from your list is Sandor.

[Kasrith]

Fortunately they can provide that with the White Walker assault on the encampment

I don't see this one happening on screen, it's going to be much like Tyrion being knocked unconscious back in S1 before the battle as well as Robb's attack in the beginning of S2 where the screen just fades to black.

I imagine that the episode starts with a Previously On... which ends with the White Walker advance on the Fist, and then the episode opens with Sam's raven taking flight, followed by a shot of all the blood and gore everywhere.

Has anyone commented that Maisie Williams and Isaac Hempstead-Wright are now really starting to look like middle teens.

I recently watched a few clips from S1 and ya, you can def tell. This might serve nicely in Arya's story, since she's supposed to be tougher and all, but I don't think Hodor can 'carry' Bran for too much longer :P

[ebevan91]

I don't see this one happening on screen, it's going to be much like Tyrion being knocked unconscious back in S1 before the battle as well as Robb's attack in the beginning of S2 where the screen just fades to black.

I imagine that the episode starts with a Previously On... which ends with the White Walker advance on the Fist, and then the episode opens with Sam's raven taking flight, followed by a shot of all the blood and gore everywhere.

I recently watched a few clips from S1 and ya, you can def tell. This might serve nicely in Arya's story, since she's supposed to be tougher and all, but I don't think Hodor can 'carry' Bran for too much longer :P

Bran does have that wheelbarrow thing from the end of season 2. I bet the actor feels like an idiot though, having to be strolled around like a baby.

[Darryk]

I don't see this one happening on screen, it's going to be much like Tyrion being knocked unconscious back in S1 before the battle as well as Robb's attack in the beginning of S2 where the screen just fades to black.

I imagine that the episode starts with a Previously On... which ends with the White Walker advance on the Fist, and then the episode opens with Sam's raven taking flight, followed by a shot of all the blood and gore everywhere.

Yeah I suppose, they may not have the budget for it.

They could have shots of the animals in the camp going crazy though, that was really cool in the book.

They don't even have to show the white walkers, just give some indication that there's chaos and people are being slaughtered (which is pretty much what it felt like in the book). It's actually more effective that way.

[Le Cygne]

Really hoping they show Jaime's flashbacks to Kings Landing during Aerys reign.

I'd really like to see this too.

[waaimasjien]

Actually I think I read an interview with GRRM that said he was the one to propose the character Jeyne be renamed, and I'm 100% sure Jeyne won't play an important part in the next books (she's not pregnant and I don't believe the "switching" theories) I'll try to find the link to such interview

ETA, found the interview, but aparently he decided to rename her after the character was already changed by D+D

From that interview I actually get the sense he doesn't quite like the change of character and history. He starts out saying "I probably shouldn't say more", and then speaks about the reasons for changing it - #1 They wanted to have Robb on-screen #2 "For whatever reason" they changed the character Robb falls in love with, after which GRRM requested the name change to not confuse readers.

He either doesn't like it or doesn't want to spoil what's going to happen to Talisa later on.

I like his honesty by the way. Too many interviews and behind the scenes-videos are filled with "this is amazing, that's amazing, these sets are the biggest and I've never seen anything like this in my life". GRRM just says "I didn't like Shae much in S1".(but have come to like her in S2)

[The Dragon has three heads]

The whole set up

For the battle of the fist was different, we haven't come across Chet's plot as yet and that may not reveal itself until they get back to crasters.

The actor that played LC mormont inferred there was alot happening in episode one, so perhaps we'll get a taste of the NW being over run, but given how season 2 ends we just might pick up with Sam stumbling through the snow and reaching some other survivors.-either works, but having a battle will be cooler than not.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I'm wondering whether the show might do fake Sansa instead of fake Arya and marry Ros off to Ramsay. Both have red hair, and Ros also has 'training', and is provided by LF. But I don't want this to happen since Sansa is supposed to have fled KL, and this would be a big deviation from the plot.

[Lady Lea]

I'm wondering whether the show might do fake Sansa instead of fake Arya and marry Ros off to Ramsay. Both have red hair, and Ros also has 'training', and is provided by LF. But I don't want this to happen since Sansa is supposed to have fled KL, and this would be a big deviation from the plot.

Huh. There's an idea. I could buy it, but since now she's on Varys' payroll as well (why???) I think it would complicate the story if she went up North.

[Nick_Scryer]

I'm wondering whether the show might do fake Sansa instead of fake Arya and marry Ros off to Ramsay. Both have red hair, and Ros also has 'training', and is provided by LF. But I don't want this to happen since Sansa is supposed to have fled KL, and this would be a big deviation from the plot.

It could definitely be a possibility especially since Theon and Ros have history from season 1, the whole "escape from Winterfell" thing in season 5/6 would be even more powerful!