Would Renly Baratheon have made a good king?

[Ran]

The problem is that he has little experience when it comes to ruling. He also shares with Robert a dislike for actual governing and administration

He was Lord of Storm's End for most of his life and served as a member of the king's small council, in which role he did actually show that he was interested in the job at least to some degree. He showed up for every meeting that we know of, and he spoke in every meeting as well, not just sitting there checking his non-existant watch waiting for it to end. The corruption of Janos Slynt can hardly be laid at his feet, as we're told specifically that it was Robert who preferred to keep Slynt in office in a sort of "better the devil you know" kind of situation, and once Robert decided something, what can you do?

So, those things are untrue. He had both the experience of being one of the great lords of the realm and he actually did not show any issue with governing or administrating. He recognized that his brother was much too negligent when it came to these things, was aware of how wildly he misspent, was prepared to play hardball with Slynt when he tried to throw off any responsibility for the failure to keep order as the Hand's tourney approached.

I think Renly would probably have been the best person to sit the Iron Throne out of those who contested for it in the War of the Five Kings. I don't recall where we get the sense that he was easily manipulated -- that's something from the TV show, not the books. It may be that in his later reign he would start to become more Robert-like in his excesses, but at least at the time of ACoK he seemed to recognize that moderation was needed. As to his love of pageantry, one notices most of the lords in Westeros kind of like it too, as it's a way to show and reinforce your power and influence and wealth. There are all treatises on the political and social importance of pageants in the Middle Ages, and there simply isn't anything particularly "weird" about Renly in this regard. Did he like pageants more than he liked war? Probably! But is that really a bad thing? The realm has had warmongers on the throne before, and those weren't necessarily the best of reigns...

As to blockading the roseroad, that's just war in the setting, where it was pretty much normal to assault your enemy's infrastructure by burning his fields and killing his smallfolk. You may notice that in ACoK, half the smallfolk in King's Landing are actively rooting for Renly, it often seems. The same guy who's starving them is the hero because once he takes over, they'll be fed, right? This was a perfectly clever strategy, just as his strategy of taking his time because he wanted to let Robb and Tywin tear each other to bits made plenty of sense (and was recognized by Tyrion as pretty sharp). Was it "noble"? Not really, but the funny thing is that no one condemns Renly for it. It's just how war is done.

[Vympel]

I made a post on this in another forum.

GRRM obviously wrote Renly as a sort of glorious mirage that anyone in Westeros with a bit of nouse didn't take terribly seriously. He was a frivolous man, and the only good things to be said about him in the entire series is by Brienne of Tarth, who had the most massive big-huge crush on him ever. Oh and Loras, who was his lover.

Quotes:

“I will defend King Tommen with all my strength, I swear it. I will give my life for his if need be. But I will never betray Renly, by word or deed. He was the king that should have been. He

was the best of them.”

The best dressed perhaps, Jaime thought, but for once he did not say it.

and

" Sansa glanced at Margaery. “I was saddened when I heard of Lord Renly’s death, Your Grace. He was very gallant.”

“You are kind to say so,” answered Margaery.

Her grandmother snorted. “Gallant, yes, and charming, and very clean. He knew how to dress and he knew how to smile and he knew how to bathe, and somehow he got the notion that this made him fit to be king."

The armorer considered that a moment. “Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he’s copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."

“I saw you in the yard today,” said Jaime. “You rode well.”

“Better than well, surely.” Ser Loras poured himself a cup of wine, and took a seat across the half-moon table.

“A more modest man might have answered ‘My lord is too kind,’ or ‘I had a good mount.’”

“The horse was adequate, and my lord is as kind as I am modest.” Loras waved at the book.

“Lord Renly always said that books were for maesters.”

So basically, he was a good looking snappy dresser (all agree), charismatic (looking like a young Robert helped in this regard surely), easy-going, but an immodest braggart (refer to his conversation with Cat as to what an amazing King he would make, which I'm sure everyone remembers), frivolous, and not exactly well read / academically inclined (unless you count pornographic material, which Loras also spoke about briefly). I think he would have been a disaster.

http://www.westeros..../Month/1999/12/

[The response to this mail concerns a question about a statement Renly makes (quoted by myself and included in Martin's response) about justification for the Baratheon claim to the throne after the rebellion.]

"Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, _of second sons and elder daughters._"

Ummmm... I think you are putting a lot more weight on this slender branch than it can bear. Renly was a carefree and careless soul, and he was speaking in broad generalizations here. He cared almost nothing about the legal basis of his brother's claim, as the context makes clear; so far as he was concerned, the only thing that mattered was the size of your army.

[Ran]

Well, hold on -- consider every single character who made a remark about Renly that you quoted.

Jaime Lannister? The guy who tells Loras that Brienne will shove a sword some place even Renly didn't find? He's got a bias against Renly that colors his judgment.

Donal Noye? He hasn't known him since he was a little boy and can hardly be a judge of character.

Olenna Tyrell? She thinks most all men are utterly useless, and is known as the Queen of Thorns for her sharp tongue. One needs to take her judgments with a grain of salt. She doesn't give any credit for having been Lord of Storm's End for a dozen years or having been part of the governance of the realm for a number of years.

As to Martin, we have evidence enough in the books to suggest that Martin's use of "careless soul" probably relates rather specifically to his not boning up on the specifics of lineal claims to the throne, since in many other things Renly was the opposite of careless.

[Free Northman]

Seriously people. Martin gives us all the quotes we need to clearly read between the lines regarding Renly's lack of suitability.

Donal Noye's quote about the 3 Baratheon brothers is as close to Varys's "Power resides where people believe it to reside" type of quote that we're likely to see. It is clearly Martin telling it to us exactly like it is, through the mouth of Noye.

Martin didn't think much of Renly. That much is pretty clear from all of these messages.

[Winter's Knight]

Well, hold on -- consider every single character who made a remark about Renly that you quoted.

Jaime Lannister? The guy who tells Loras that Brienne will shove a sword some place even Renly didn't find? He's got a bias against Renly that colors his judgment.

Forgive the nitpicking Ran,but Jaime delivers the thread with himself doing the shoving:

Jaime grabbed the boy with his good hand and yanked him around. “I am the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, you arrogant pup. Your commander, so long as you wear that white cloak. Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I’ll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.”

[Vympel]

Well, hold on -- consider every single character who made a remark about Renly that you quoted.

Jaime Lannister? The guy who tells Loras that Brienne will shove a sword some place even Renly didn't find? He's got a bias against Renly that colors his judgment.

Donal Noye? He hasn't known him since he was a little boy and can hardly be a judge of character.

Olenna Tyrell? She thinks most all men are utterly useless, and is known as the Queen of Thorns for her sharp tongue. One needs to take her judgments with a grain of salt. She doesn't give any credit for having been Lord of Storm's End for a dozen years or having been part of the governance of the realm for a number of years.

As to Martin, we have evidence enough in the books to suggest that Martin's use of "careless soul" probably relates rather specifically to his not boning up on the specifics of lineal claims to the throne, since in many other things Renly was the opposite of careless.

First off, while attacking each estimation of Renly's character is a valid means of analysis, I think taken together they all offer a very consistent theme that is very unlikely to be a mere coincidence and is instead, as Free Northman rightly notes, a clear signal from the author.

Is it possible that they're all wrong? Sure. Is it likely? Not really. At the same time, there's very little evidence that Renly would've been a great King. Though in particular I would say Jaime's jibe indicates nothing of a bias against Renly at all. There needs to be more than that. I'd also say that I never found Olenna Tyrell as being someone who though all men were useless. You're taking her disdain for Mace Tyrell and applying it to everyone, AFAIK. You can say that Donal Noye didn't know adult Renly, but I take it as Free Northman took it.

As for Renly being the opposite of careless in many other things, I don't really see it.

[Ran]

Fair enough on that. Either way, Jaime thinks very little of Renly for reasons that don't really line up with a keen political analysis.

And again, Donal Noye? Not a good witness to Renly's qualities, as I've said, and Martin admits that remarks from people like Donal Noye were aimed at revealing something about them. Noye respected martial prowess and manly pursuits, and did not think much of dressing well or pageantry, as if those qualities alone reveal whether someone is a worthy ruler or not.

Basically, Martin deliberately uses Renly as a mirror through which we get to learn about the other characters and their values. Contrast Noye's opinion with the actuality of what we see of Renly -- someone who came to Ned and urged on him the best course possible in the situation as Robert lay dying, who perfectly recognized the danger of Cersei Lannister when Ned himself thought he had the upperhand, forges the strongest army in the War of the Five Kings, who makes use of two clever strategies in those wars, who offers a not-unreasonable compromise by which to reunify the realm, who does not in fact fear fighting when it's needed -- and it doesn't really look like Noye is right, does it? But that's not a surprise, since he last saw Renly when he was a boy of six or seven, and his lack of basis for his judgment strikes me as being pretty interesting when there are those who take it as some sort of gospel.

I'd hazard that opinions of Renly based on Noye's remarks reflect on the personalities of those who hold those opinions almost as much as the original remarks reflect on Noye's personality.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I cannot stress it enough that Galbart Glover said it better than anyone...

"RENLY IS NOT RIGHT!"

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

I think Renly would have made a summer king, if you get the metaphor. Maybe with a good Hand, he would be better.

[Free Northman]

Fair enough on that. Eiher way, Jaime thinks very little of Renly for reasons that don't really line up with a keen political analysis.

And again, Donal Noye? Not a good witness to Renly's qualities, as I've said, and Martin admits that remarks from people like Donal Noye were aimed at revealing something about them. Noye respected martial prowess and iron will, and did not think much of dressing well or pageantry, as if those qualities alone reveal whether someone is a worthy ruler or not.

Basically, Martin deliberately uses Renly as a mirror through which we get to learn about the other characters and their values.

As opposed to Loras and Brienne who are pretty much the only people who speak well of Renly, and they were both in love with him.

Catelyn is rather scathing about him as well, when she meets him, I seem to recall. Wasn't it something about him just being a playful boy, playing at being a King, or some such comment? I don't have my books with me right now, but I'm sure it was something along those lines.

Part of her "Knights of Summer" condemnation.

[Ran]

As opposed to Loras and Brienne who are pretty much the only people who speak well of Renly

Well, there's also those tens of thousands of followers, and the tens of thousands who want Renly to win, and the many thousands who throw down their arms when they think that Renly's come and they're ever so happy to fight for him rather than continue with Stannis.

They thought pretty well of him. Some doubtless had self-interest in mind, some just saw the winning side, but the fact is Catelyn can see that the lords that followed him do so with "fervor". They're committed to him because he knew how to win the love from his followers.

Catelyn is rather scathing about him as well, when she meets him, I seem to recall.

You're probably thinking about this:

This is madness, Catelyn thought. Real enemies on every side and half the realm in flames, and Renly sits here playing at war like a boy with his first wooden sword.

But this is absolutely incorrect of her. We know why Renly is holding his melee: he's deliberately taking his time (a fact Catelyn doesn't realize; I love Cat, my favorite character in the series, but she's not all-knowing) and these melees are things that keep the army in good cheer, both the common men who cheer on the warriors and the knights who get to prove their prowess and hone their skills. It's not madness, it's just being clever.

[Free Northman]

Well, there's also those tens of thousands of followers, and the tens of thousands who want Renly to win, and the many thousands who throw down their arms when they think that Renly's come and they're ever so happy to fight for him rather than continue with Stannis.

They thought pretty well of him. Some doubtless had self-interest in mind, some just saw the winning side, but the fact is Catelyn can see that the lords that followed him do so with "fervor". They're commited to him.

You're probably thinking about this:

But this is absolutely incorrect of her. We know why Renly is holding his melee: he's deliberately taking his time (a fact Catelyn doesn't realize; I love Cat, my favorite character in the series, but she's not all-knowing) and these melees are things that keep the army in good cheer, both the common men who cheer on the warriors and the knights who get to prove their prowess and hone their skills.

Thanks for the quote. Yes, that's the one, although I thought there was more still.

Anyway, to be fair about the thousands who cheer him - they've never met the guy. All they know is some guy in shiny green antlered armor who throws nice feasts and likes a jolly good time.

He is a great PR man. That doesn't prove anything with regards to the substance of the man.

[Lummel]

Renly is probably the best King candidate in the war of the Five Kings, and one of the better potential candidates for monarch that we have seen so far simply because he is an able politician.

Being able to sweet talk, negiotate, and achieve political compromises are what it is all about. Wars and battles occur, but relative to the length of a reign, don't take up that much time. The point anyway is to avoid open conflict through judicious sweet talking, negiotation and compromise not to grab your sword at the first opportunity.

With sound advisors and a good small council he could have made for an above average ruler. And if he were never to have children he'd gain a useful reputation for piety too.

[therealbando]

I cannot stress it enough that Galbart Glover said it better than anyone...

"RENLY IS NOT RIGHT!"

:agree: no one could have said it better

[Ran]

I've already noted the evidence for his substance, by pointing out the things he actually does, which is far better proof of who he was and what he was capable of than Donal Noye's opinion based on the boy he knew from 14 years ago.

Speaking of Catelyn, she observes the fact that Renly was neither glutton nor drunkard -- he'd eat and drink with moderation. Everything immoderate in Robert seems to be moderate in Renly. As Renly is well aware -- the only thing really immoderate about him is his self-regard, and his lack of modesty is a flaw he's also aware of.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

But this is absolutely incorrect of her. We know why Renly is holding his melee: he's deliberately taking his time (a fact Catelyn doesn't realize; I love Cat, my favorite character in the series, but she's not all-knowing) and these melees are things that keep the army in good cheer, both the common men who cheer on the warriors and the knights who get to prove their prowess and hone their skills. It's not madness, it's just being clever.

One thing: Why does he deliberately take his time? He had the numerical advantage, he could press it by marching towards King's Landing at a quicker pace. If he does need to hold tournaments all the time to keep morale up, well, that doesn't speak well to his leadership abilities.

[Ran]

Why does he deliberately take his time?

Per Tyrion:

. . . were I he, I would do much as he is doing. Make my progress, flaunt my power for the realm to see, watch, wait. Let my rivals contend while I bide my own sweet time. If Stark defeats us, the south will fall into Renly's hands like a windfall from the gods, and he'll not have lost a man. And if it goes the other way, he can descend on us while we are weakened.

Why waste any men when he doesn't have to, right? That's his thinking.

If he does need to hold tournaments all the time to keep morale up, well, that doesn't speak well to his leadership abilities.

I didn't mean to imply that the tournaments were to deal with flagging moral. Merely that they were an excellent way to keep good moral high. What exactly is the downside to a tournament? They cost a bit, but then I'd guess the cost far pales in comparison to the cost of having a huge army. Sometimes knights get injured, but then if you don't plan to rush to war, a few injuries along the road hardly matters.

[Lummel]

two reasons for delay off the top of my head.

number one, logistics. A big army needs a lot of food, Bitterbridge is the last point on a river suppliable from the Reach to build up supply dumps before moving forward.

Secondly, the more Robb and Tywin fight the more they weaken each other, giving him a greater advantage. Ideally if fighting pins Tywin down in the Riverlands or the west then Renly has a free run at King's Landing.

[Aki]

Well, there's also those tens of thousands of followers, and the tens of thousands who want Renly to win, and the many thousands who throw down their arms when they think that Renly's come and they're ever so happy to fight for him rather than continue with Stannis.

They thought pretty well of him. Some doubtless had self-interest in mind, some just saw the winning side, but the fact is Catelyn can see that the lords that followed him do so with "fervor". They're committed to him because he knew how to win the love from his followers.

But this is absolutely incorrect of her. We know why Renly is holding his melee: he's deliberately taking his time (a fact Catelyn doesn't realize; I love Cat, my favorite character in the series, but she's not all-knowing) and these melees are things that keep the army in good cheer, both the common men who cheer on the warriors and the knights who get to prove their prowess and hone their skills. It's not madness, it's just being clever.

Thousands of followers, all Tyrell and Baratheon men. Smallfolk liked Renly, he looked like a king, but he would have failed, same way he failed to take Kings Landing. He should have marched straight for the capital, knowing that Lannisters are fighting Starks in the Riverlands. He wasted time, just to make a good show with his "summer knights", and "rainbow guard".

[Lyanna Stark]

Regarding pageantry and "dressing to impress", Tywin does the same, so Renly is far from alone in dressing up to impress others. Olenna may be dismissive of him being well dressed, but Renly is putting on the same show as Tywin, and Tywin is definitely an able politician in many ways.

Consider also how Robert and Stannis reacted to Tywin when they were children: Tywin looks kingly. Looking kingly may not be the end all and be all, but it is still a good thing to do since it helps. The "trappings of power", floppy ears and all that.