A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up

[Beeswop]

Ruby Chevrolet's point (a good one, I think) was that the quotation as initially posted made the foreshadowing (on which I am sold by the way) seem a little more obvious than it in fact was in the text.

[Bushido]

First time BR might observe him, in Dance Bran.

I am pretty sure that it is Bloodraven that wargs the raven.

In Clash it is just a hint,nice prelude to House of Undying and further foreshadowing,but in Dance it could easily be a blunt statement,given that it comes from a bird :)

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Ruby Chevrolet's point (a good one, I think) was that the quotation as initially posted made the foreshadowing (on which I am sold by the way) seem a little more obvious than it in fact was in the text.

Thank you. You are right -- that is all I am saying.

As I said, there is no reference to kings hiding under snow. There is a reference to people (northerners) hiding from a king (Robert) under snow. This might be a reference to Jon hiding from Robert under the name "Snow" but this does not say anything one way or the other about Jon being a king.

Now, one of the examples given is good. That's the direwolf being a second life fit for a king. This could foreshadow Ghost being Jon's second life and may mean that Jon is or will be a king.

But the rest are either not good or greatly overstated. For example, there is no indication in the texts that "hero" means "king", as was suggested in the first post.

There is nothing to indicate that Wylla Manderly will be a surrogate wetnurse for Jon, or that Lyanna Mormont will be a surrogate mother for him (no more than Rhaegar Targaryen is a surrogate father for Rhaegar Frey, nor Rickard Karstark a surrogate grandfather for Robb Stark, and so on).

Then there is this (not from the first post in this topic, but from a later one):

Really?

Jon notices that the bird's eyes never left him while saying "King".

But it is not clear at all that the Raven is looking at Jon when it says "King". In fact, it appears that it is Mormont who is looking at Jon:

"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," IT said again, strutting back and forth.

"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.

"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while HIS eyes never left Jon Snow.

Notice that "it" (the raven) is saying "king" (and strutting about) while "his" (Mormont's) eyes are on Jon.

[Bushido]

Of course. Good point! This leaves us ADwD moment.

[redviper9]

Another moment that's been noted in other threads (but not in this one so far) is the Kings of Winter telling Jon in his dreams that he "doesn't belong" in the Winterfell crypts. On the surface, this is just Jon working through the issues that resulted from him being raised as a bastard (and obviously that is at play here). But it can also be interpreted as the old kings telling Jon that while he may have Stark blood, he's not a "real" Stark. And by "real" Stark, I'm referring to the Westerosi practice of children being given the titles and honors of their fathers' houses. I think it also could be significant that it's the kings -- not Ned, or Robb, or Cat -- who are telling Jon that Winterfell isn't where he belongs.

ETA: Not just any kings, but kings who have been "hidden."

[Beeswop]

Thank you. You are right -- that is all I am saying.

As I said, there is no reference to kings hiding under snow. There is a reference to people (northerners) hiding from a king (Robert) under snow. This might be a reference to Jon hiding from Robert under the name "Snow" but this does not say anything one way or the other about Jon being a king.

Now, one of the examples given is good. That's the direwolf being a second life fit for a king. This could foreshadow Ghost being Jon's second life and may mean that Jon is or will be a king.

But the rest are either not good or greatly overstated. For example, there is no indication in the texts that "hero" means "king", as was suggested in the first post.

There is nothing to indicate that Wylla Manderly will be a surrogate wetnurse for Jon, or that Lyanna Mormont will be a surrogate mother for him (no more than Rhaegar Targaryen is a surrogate father for Rhaegar Frey, nor Rickard Karstark a surrogate grandfather for Robb Stark, and so on).

Then there is this (not from the first post in this topic, but from a later one):

But it is not clear at all that the Raven is looking at Jon when it says "King". In fact, it appears that it is Mormont who is looking at Jon:

Notice that "it" (the raven) is saying "king" (and strutting about) while "his" (Mormont's) eyes are on Jon.

You are welcome. :cool4:

I also agree about the Mormont scene. I had always read this as Mormont looking intently at Jon (and as you say the personal pronouns suggest that this is the correct reading) and it always made me wonder what Mormont KNEW...

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Of course. Good point! This leaves us ADwD moment.

Yes, the one in A Dance With Dragons is a good one. The raven says "king" and "Jon Snow" in almost the same breath.

[nenya~]

I just made a new thread about the northern conspiracy and used this quote

More snowmen had risen in the yard by the time Theon Greyjoy made his way back. To command the snowy sentinels on the walls, the squires had erected a dozen snowy lords. One was plainly meant to be Lord Manderly; it was the fattest snowman that Theon had ever seen. The one-armed lord could only be Harwood Stout, the snow lady Barbrey Dustin. And the one closest to the door with the beard made of icicles had to be old Whoresbane Umber.

(p. 542)

Initially, I just thought about the connection with them as part of a conspiracy with Manderly, but then Tagganaro pointed out that it could be Jon Snow that they may eventually follow, and they would really be "Snowmen" then! Nice pun there huh lol

[Fire Eater]

Tristifer Botely on the Kingsmoot, I don't know if this counts as foreshadowing but here goes:

"But the king was old and Torgon restless, so it happened when his father died he was raiding along the Mander from his stronghold on Greyshield.

Torgon can be taken to be a metaphor for Jon here. When the king died, Torgon was at Greyshield on the Shield Islands. When the king, Robert, died, Jon was with the NW at the Wall which includes the fort of Oakenshield, named for the island in the Shield Islands.

His brothers sent no word to him but quickly called a kingsmoot, thinking that one of them would be chosen to wear the driftwood crow. But the captains and the kings chose Urragon Goodbrother to rule instead.

After the king died, Torgon's brothers held a kingsmoot thinking they would be king, but someone else ruled the throne instead. After Robert died, his brothers, Stannis and Renly, helped to start the War of the Five Kings for the Crown thinking one of them would be king. Cersei rules the Crown instead of them as Queen.

The first thing the new king did was command that all the sons of the old king be put to death, and so they were. After, that men called him Badbrother, though in truth they'd been no kin of his. He ruled for almost two years."

Urragon's first act was to have all the sons of the old king put to death, and ruled for almost two years. One of Cersei's first commands as Queen Regent was to have all of Robert's natural children put to death. Cersei's rule as Queen Regent will be about two years by the end.

Asha remembered now. "Torgon came home . . ."

" . . . and said the kingsmoot was unlawful since he had not been there to make his claim.

Torgon pressed his claim saying that the decision of the kingsmoot was illegal, being that since he was at Greyshield, he was the true heir to throne, and he hadn't been able to make his claim since he was ignorant of his father's death. Jon is at the Wall, and despite being the true heir to the Iron Throne, he didn't press his claim during the war because he was at the Wall fighting the Others, and he is ignorant of his heritage.

Badbrother proved to be as mean as he was cruel and had few friends left upon the isles. The priests denounced him, the lords rose against him, and his own captains hacked him into pieces. Torgon the Latecomer became king and ruled for forty years."

Cersei proves to be a mean and cruel ruler in AFfC, and she is isolating and making enemies out of friends and allies, and it is no surprise she currently has few friends left. The HS has imprisoned her and will have her tried, and he will if he already hasn't, denounce her. The lords are rising against her as of towards the end of ADwD with the Northern lords, lords of the Reach, Stormlands and Dorne wih other Targ loyalists I haven't mentioned. Cersei will be killed by her own captain of the KG, Jaime.

Jon, OTOH, will enjoy a long reign.

[tsunad]

I can see Jon becoming King on the IT (not that I want that to happen, I prefer him being the KitN) as a compromise candidate, just like he became LC. The North declared independence, so they won't care, but maybe there will be two southron houses who want the throne, but can't agree, but they would both accept Jon. That would be a nice symmetry.

If Jon's parentage becomes known (assuming R+L=J is true), he makes a great compromise candidate:

He's the son of Targs, the son of Starks, and the nephew of the Dornish ruler. Get him to marry someone from the Reach, and he's got three of the seven Kingdoms backing him, plus the old loyalists.

Of course, this means that Dany and Aegon will have to die or be discredited...

[J. Stargaryen]

If Jon's parentage becomes known (assuming R+L=J is true), he makes a great compromise candidate:

He's the son of Targs, the son of Starks, and the nephew of the Dornish ruler. Get him to marry someone from the Reach, and he's got three of the seven Kingdoms backing him, plus the old loyalists.

Of course, this means that Dany and Aegon will have to die or be discredited...

Like Margaery Tyrell perhaps? Our queen consort (re: can't inherit the throne) is going to be short a king soon, I think. The most powerful house in the realm is not going to go quietly from King's Landing. It stands to reason that the Tyrells will be looking for a king to whom they can attach themselves, yet again.

There are two types of candidates they would be likely to consider, IMO: 1) a potential puppet king, a la Renly or; 2) the person who brings the most to the table, in order to create the strongest possible alliance. Jon Snow, as the King in the North, is the latter type of candidate in spades. Or roses, as it were (nice segue, heh).

So I was reading about the end of the Wars of the Roses, and I came across an interesting piece of information. Apparently, Henry Tudor retconned the red Lancaster rose into existence, sometime after the decisive Battle of Bosworth Field. This was a really interesting find to me because it fits in so well with my prediction that Jon Snow will adopt the blue winter rose as his sigil sometime in the future. After retconning the Lancaster rose into existence, Henry combined it with the white rose of York to create the Tudor rose, symbolizing the joining of the two houses.

How does this tie into ASoIaF? Well, the sigil of our queen consort, Margaery of House Tyrell, is a golden rose (on green). Could the blue and gold roses come together to end the civil war begun by houses Stark and Lannister, and reunite the realm? Yes, I think so. And I think it makes a lot of sense when you compare the current situation in Westeros/ASoIaF with the end of the WotR.

[Narea]

If Jon's parentage becomes known (assuming R+L=J is true), he makes a great compromise candidate:

He's the son of Targs, the son of Starks, and the nephew of the Dornish ruler. Get him to marry someone from the Reach, and he's got three of the seven Kingdoms backing him, plus the old loyalists.

Of course, this means that Dany and Aegon will have to die or be discredited...

Say what ? The closest relation to Dorne Jon has is through Daeron II Targaryen's Dornish wife. That's Maester Aemon's mother aka Myriah Martell aka Jon's great-great-great-great-grandmother. Unless one of the Targ wives not mentioned (Maekar I's, Aegon IV's, Jaehaerys II's ) is Dornish too, then we're talking only-one-great-grandmother at best...which I don't see as relevant as Jon's very existence is an insult to the recent Martells.

[Ice Turtle]

Would you sooner have a father or a chair, lad? Jaime wished he knew the answer.

Jaime thinking about Tommen, but this is awfully true for Jon as well.

[Arkash]

which I don't see as relevant as Jon's very existence is an insult to the recent Martells.

True. If RLJ is true, then Jon is the living proof of the adultery of Rhaegar Targaryen... I think the Martells would take that as an insult.

Except if Jon marries a Martell (Arianne ?) in order to appease them...

I like the theory of the roses (blue and gold), but doesnt it sounds too much like the actual War of the Roses?

I'm doing metatext here : would GRRM do such a obvious tribute to the War of the Roses ? I dont think so, I guess he'd try to do something else, other symbols, rather than those historicaly accurates ones... but who knows ?

[Ser Daegon]

I don't know the exact quoting from the book... but Jon's second chapter in aGoT wherein he visits Arya... they are talking and Jon has given her Needle, Arya says something along the lines of "I wish you could come with us!" and Jon replies "Sometimes different roads lead to the same castle, who knows?"

Perhaps a little foreshadowing from Jon himself?

[pamparius]

If Robb explicitly named Jon his heir, then Jon is his heir.

That's not how succession works. You can't just arbitrarily pick some random person to succeed you, write it in your will, and then expect it to happen. The very definition of "king" intrinsically implies DIVINE RIGHT to rule (by European medieval standards). That's why bloodlines are important, why bastards are considered a "watered" down, and thus ultimately useless; because they were born of sin, and obviously God does not intend for those born out of sin to hold any sort of divine right to a throne.

The religious aspect of succession cannot be ignored. The only way to truly legitimize a successor is for the church to recognize you as such. A monarch in medieval Europe could not effectively control the state without the support and recognition of the church (in most cases, the Catholic church). Social mechanisms for control add to the stratification of the status quo and ultimately is what keeps the "common folk" in line. You see this quite a lot in ASOIF, Cersei has to make some serious concessions to get the High Septim to recognize Joffrey.

[Ser Daegon]

I'm doing metatext here : would GRRM do such a obvious tribute to the War of the Roses ? I dont think so, I guess he'd try to do something else, other symbols, rather than those historicaly accurates ones... but who knows ?

Well... the two main families during the war of the roses were Lancaster and York... in Martin's world he has Lannister and Stark... That's a little obvious, if you ask me. But he blatantly states often that there are historical parallels, not that it runs exactly with our history.

[Arya Targaryen]

True. If RLJ is true, then Jon is the living proof of the adultery of Rhaegar Targaryen... I think the Martells would take that as an insult.

Except if Jon marries a Martell (Arianne ?) in order to appease them...

If Aegon is out of picture, that Dorne's best chance is still Jon. They support the Targs, liked Rhaegar, and probably knew about Lyanna as well. They didn't like the idea of Rhaegar taking a second wife, but since it didn't hurt Elia's (and her children's) rights, I don't think they cared so much. Dany had his chance, I don't think Dorne would support her, as her dragons killed Quentin (if not for those dragons). They would probably try to marry Arianne to Jon (but I don't like the idea so much)

[pamparius]

True. If RLJ is true, then Jon is the living proof of the adultery of Rhaegar Targaryen... I think the Martells would take that as an insult.

Except if Jon marries a Martell (Arianne ?) in order to appease them...

I like the theory of the roses (blue and gold), but doesnt it sounds too much like the actual War of the Roses?

Look at early British history and compare it to that of Westeros. They are more than passingly similar, from the parallels between William the Conqueror and Aegon the Conqueror to the War of The Roses. There are many, many such parallels it's not hard to tell what inspired Westerosi history, IMHO.

[J. Stargaryen]

True. If RLJ is true, then Jon is the living proof of the adultery of Rhaegar Targaryen... I think the Martells would take that as an insult.

Except if Jon marries a Martell (Arianne ?) in order to appease them...

I like the theory of the roses (blue and gold), but doesnt it sounds too much like the actual War of the Roses?¹

I'm doing metatext here : would GRRM do such a obvious tribute to the War of the Roses ?² I dont think so, I guess he'd try to do something else, other symbols, rather than those historicaly accurates ones... but who knows ?

1) If you think it already sounds too similar then I am glad I didn't mention the other clues that point to Jon Snow being Henry Tudor's ASoIaF doppelganger. ;) Because there are a couple of other things, such as Henry's coat of arms, and the fact that his forces fought under the banner of a red dragon in the decisive battle of the WotR. Kind of interesting, right?

2) GRRM has used many (nearly) historically accurate symbols as sigils in the story. In fact, as I mentioned, there is already one house that uses a rose for its sigil. We're already half way there, by my count.

ETA: Also, Henry was not a main line Lancaster, just like Jon is not a main line Stark; i.e., Ned's child. And there was some issue of bastardy in Henry's claim, though I'm not 100% clear on the details. I think his father had to be declared legitimate or some such.