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A Memory of Light [FULL SPOILER DISCUSSION] Part 2


Stubby

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I liked Moiraine's appearance too, but was her presence really necessary? Min tells us that Rand will "almost certainly" fail without her, and Mat is prophecied by both Min and the Finns to give up his eye to save the world, which was apparently fulfilled when he rescued her. But what exactly did she do that was so necessary to save the world?

- Help Rand at Merrilor? Maybe, but Rand probably would have succeeded even without the Peace, albeit with less left to salvage and multiple friends/lovers short. I say this because he took his own loyal forces to Shayol Ghul, and Mat and Perrin could have stayed there with him to do what they needed to do.

- Go into SG with Rand as part of his circle? Again, maybe, but there's nothing that indicates this had to be her rather than Cadsuane or Alivia or Egwene or Elayne or Aviendha.

- Cause Thom to guard his back and kill the Black Sisters trying to enter SG? I don't think so, because a. Thom may very well have done this even without Moiraine, b. it was pretty stupid of the Sisters to not kill Thom on the way in, which they could easily have done, and c. although it was a great scene there is no need for this to be Thom in particular.

- Something else?

Lets not forget about Egwenes compiance with his plan, and the breaking of the seals. If the seals were never broken, or broken too early then all could have been lost. Moiraine stopped this from happening. The victory would have been a lot less without her-more would have died on the battlefield, nation would have risen against nation in the aftermath if not for Rands Dragon Peace. She also gave Rand alot of hope, and one more person to trust completely. Basically i think she did all she could have

Am I the only one who mentally pronounced "Knotai" as "Naughty" and laughed picturing Tuon calling Mat her "Knotai" boy?

-edit-

I amuse easily.

I never bothered with the name and just called him Mat whenever it came up in the book. Terrible name

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Lets not forget about Egwenes compiance with his plan, and the breaking of the seals. If the seals were never broken, or broken too early then all could have been lost.

All of that seemed very forced and contrived to me. Particularly since it then turned out that they didn't even have the Seals and the Shadow didn't try to break them untimely.

Also, IMHO, a combination of Min and Cadsuane could have handled all that. A viewing, some amazing deductive ability (hey! she figured out Callandor, why not this too?), a bit of ancient, forgotten lore from Cadsuane, who had been revealed as somebody who had _also_ known about the Dragon's rebirth and been studying and preparing for 2 decades, and presto!

Which, BTW leades me to a pretty long-standing peeve I have with Siuan's character - namely what has she been doing since Rand's birth and until her deposition, besides having Moiraine's back vis-à-vis the White Tower? I mean, she thought that she would be the leader of Aes Sedai during the Last Battle, that she would be guiding the Dragon Reborn, yet she didn't seem to have researched anything pertaining to that role. I'd have expected her to have some theories on the Sealing at the very least.

So, add her to Cadsuane and Min as somebody who could have easily helped to resolve this conflict. Or, indeed preveneted it from happening at all.

Basically i think she did all she could have

Not IMHO. Moiraine's non-role after all the foreshadowing and build-up of her return was my biggest disappointment with the book. At the very least, she should have been the one with the "let go" lesson and her presence in the link, and sharing of emotions, which was inexplicably left out in this case, should have been critical for Rand's ability to actually go through with it.

And there certainly should have been much more of her interaction with various characters on-screen, which, if skillfully done, could have given us a lot of badly needed character scenes with the main cast.

But as it is, it would have been much, much better, if she had remained dead and showed up as a Hero of the Horn.

I also disliked how everybody seemed to think that Rand was sure to die... but that Moiraine and Nyn had a good chance of survivng. IMHO, more logically it should have been considered a suicide mission for all 3 of them.

Additionally, what a let-down how they all were able to just walk out of the Pit, and how the women voluntarily abandoned Rand (sic!). Given the cosmic scope of forces playing out there I'd have expected something much more dramatic.

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Siuan and Moiraine are a double act. To me it seems like Siuan was preparing to get the various kingdoms to support Rand and the Tower, while Moiraine is the searcher, using Siuans connections to find Rand. It seems obvious to me that of the two roles Moiraine would have more time to follow the prophecies and concoct her ideas.

Also Moiraines status among the Borderlanders, the White Tower and Rand is the only thing that allowed for the Dragons peace to occur. Shes pretty much a living legend after taking out two Forsaken, coming back from the dead and fidning and nurturing Rand. When she comes in everything is falling to pieces and she resolves it all with her presence and words. What more could you want? If not for her Rand would have walked away and made his own preparations to go to SG with her and Nynaeve. The nations wouldnt coordinate properly and Egwene would probably have been commander in chief, which could have been disasterous. Some others may not even have fought and went to defend their homelands. All this leads to thousands more deaths before, during and after the Last Battle

If Tam didnt have a life-lesson for Rand then people would also complain. As it was she gave Rand advice support and confidence. He doesnt trust Alivia or Cadsuane in the same way. There was more talk needed between all characters but i feel of all only Nynaeve was criminally short changed

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Sure Moiraine, was essential for the outcome of the negotiations. But she shouldn't have been, or at least not in this way. Rand's strategy was a lot more terrible than it had any right to be.

A self-evidently unworkable peace plan, commanding the armies while fighting the Darkone and only a laughable bluff to get everyone on board.

I understand the need to have other characters contribute but this made him look like a retard.

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Who says the peace plan wont work? Even if its only temporary, a generation of complete peace is a great dream. He should have been in command of the allied forces also, but i believe his plan all along was for Elayne to be high commander

And his bluff may have been laughable but who wouldwant to take that chance?

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The initial version of the peace plan had obvious defects that Elayne pointed out.

As to who would take the chance: The people who know him best. Elayne and Egwene. The first one he is bonded to and the second was the only person he really had to convince.

It's not the stupidity that rankles though. It's that he tried to force Tuon into signing a peace treaty on threat of total destruction then storms away in rage, goes completely bonkers and wants to destroy the world. Finally he finds enlightenment on a mountain with lights that can be seen all over the world and then proceeds to try to force the rulers of the world into signing his peace treaty on threat of total destruction, this time through inaction.

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Lets not forget about Egwenes compiance with his plan, and the breaking of the seals. If the seals were never broken, or broken too early then all could have been lost. Moiraine stopped this from happening. The victory would have been a lot less without her-more would have died on the battlefield, nation would have risen against nation in the aftermath if not for Rands Dragon Peace. She also gave Rand alot of hope, and one more person to trust completely. Basically i think she did all she could have

Let's also not forget that Egwene was in agreement that the Seals needed to be broken - she said as much in her private chat with Elayne - she just though that Rand was going to do it too soon. And she was probably right. It didn't need Moiraine reciting some prophesy lines to resolve (which could easily have been done by Cadsuane, or any Brown sister). It just needed Rand and Egwene to sit down and have an actual conversation about their strategy.

I could have done without the whole switcheroo with the Seals. Also without Faile getting lost in the Blight. A lot of pointless scenes that took time away from other chracters, just so Androl and Olver would have something to do.

If Tam didnt have a life-lesson for Rand then people would also complain. As it was she gave Rand advice support and confidence. He doesnt trust Alivia or Cadsuane in the same way. There was more talk needed between all characters but i feel of all only Nynaeve was criminally short changed

Why shouldn't he trust Cadsuane? She's had his back through a lot of shit. And if not her, then Aviendha. Actually, I expected Alivia would have to be there, that they'd need someone disconnected from Rand, to kill his body so his soul could occupy Moridin's. Either way, he didn't really need Moiraine. She didn't do much beyond just standing around and watching.

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Re Siuan - Although we as readers see her competence in political matters and manipulation, I think it's reasonably clear that she wasn't a great Amyrlin. She KNEW the Dragon had been reborn and that the Black Ajah existed, and she did nothing to prepare the Tower and nothing to prepare the world. Granted it was a very fine line for her to walk, but she failed completely. Her entire plan for the DR was to have Moiraine's back. No plan B, no support system. Just an angreal and protection from the Hall. For the Black Ajah her plan was the Super Girls, which was a stupid plan that succeeded beyond all reasonable hope.

My point is, although Siuan is very smart, a fantastic politician and manipulator, she was not a very good Amyrlin.

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Re Siuan - Although we as readers see her competence in political matters and manipulation, I think it's reasonably clear that she wasn't a great Amyrlin. She KNEW the Dragon had been reborn and that the Black Ajah existed, and she did nothing to prepare the Tower and nothing to prepare the world. Granted it was a very fine line for her to walk, but she failed completely. Her entire plan for the DR was to have Moiraine's back. No plan B, no support system. Just an angreal and protection from the Hall. For the Black Ajah her plan was the Super Girls, which was a stupid plan that succeeded beyond all reasonable hope.

My point is, although Siuan is very smart, a fantastic politician and manipulator, she was not a very good Amyrlin.

The problem was, she had no appreciation for the scale of the Black Ajah. No one did, not even Cadsuane. A full one fifth of the Aes Sedai numbers?

They all expected a few dozen members. Which required a substantially different kind of planning. With numbers being that small, the greater need is to keep things secret, so they don't find out and manage to kill you after torturing the information out of you.

Do remember that Siuan knows personally that the last time an Amyrlin tried more extensive moves to prepare for the Dragon, she and everyone else involved with the scheme were tortured and killed. It made Siuan secretive, and till tGS, I'd have said excessively so. But then we find out one of her closest allies, Sheriam, as well as a good friend, Delana, were Black Ajah. If Siuan had been more open to preparation, these would have been among the first she approached. And that would have meant total disaster.

Siuan's plan was clearly to be ready for when the DR was found, then make the announcement and once things were out in the open, use her supreme position as Amyrlin, and her inside knowledge of Rand, to manage things. And she was succeeding well enough that a Foresaken and the Black Ajah decided to step in and oust her.

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The initial version of the peace plan had obvious defects that Elayne pointed out.

As to who would take the chance: The people who know him best. Elayne and Egwene. The first one he is bonded to and the second was the only person he really had to convince.

It's not the stupidity that rankles though. It's that he tried to force Tuon into signing a peace treaty on threat of total destruction then storms away in rage, goes completely bonkers and wants to destroy the world. Finally he finds enlightenment on a mountain with lights that can be seen all over the world and then proceeds to try to force the rulers of the world into signing his peace treaty on threat of total destruction, this time through inaction.

This bothered me as well. It felt like a big step back in character development on Rand's part only so they could have Moiraine 'save the day'. At the end he was practically shouting like a petty 16 year old boy.
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Am I the only one who mentally pronounced "Knotai" as "Naughty" and laughed picturing Tuon calling Mat her "Knotai" boy?

-edit-

I amuse easily.

Knotai was definitely the straw that broke the camels back, I know it took 14 books and a bunch of characters with 4 different names, but I was so glad the Knotai thing happened in book 14, any sooner and I would probably have thrown out the series of books.

My biggest warning to people on this series is the name changing of every character and sometimes more than once.

It took me 3 books just to get past Zarine turning into FAIL

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This bothered me as well. It felt like a big step back in character development on Rand's part only so they could have Moiraine 'save the day'. At the end he was practically shouting like a petty 16 year old boy.

Even when you are a Zen super being, it just goes to show that when you are around the people you grow up, your emotionality is doomed to regress.

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The problem wasn't Rand's emotional state. This is a man who by books 5 and 6 was very good at the Game of Houses - good enough to keep the Cairhienian and Tairen nobles more or less in line. Moiraine, Thom, and Elayne between them had taught him how to rule and how to play.

Then in the last several books he loses all of that.

Fionwe - I appreciate your point but I still think the evidence is that she failed completely in her goals. Underestimating the BA is understandable but she knew they were dangerous enough to remove an Amyrlin and openly attack royalty (in New Spring). Even if she thought it was only a few dozen she should have planned for far worse.

And knowing their existence, couldn't she have figured out some test, perhaps the Oath Rod in secret as was later done? It might have blown up in her face, sure, but she didn't even try. Even Elaida did a better job than she did on this score.

And regarding the DR... again, I appreciate the nuances you mention, but aside from supporting Moiraine she did nothing in twenty years. She didn't lay any kind of groundwork, she didn't start recruiting more heavily for new sisters, etc.

I'll agree that she was in a very difficult, maybe impossible situation. But I still feel like she and Moiraine had nothing to show for most of their 20 years of work.

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The initial version of the peace plan had obvious defects that Elayne pointed out.

As to who would take the chance: The people who know him best. Elayne and Egwene. The first one he is bonded to and the second was the only person he really had to convince.

It's not the stupidity that rankles though. It's that he tried to force Tuon into signing a peace treaty on threat of total destruction then storms away in rage, goes completely bonkers and wants to destroy the world. Finally he finds enlightenment on a mountain with lights that can be seen all over the world and then proceeds to try to force the rulers of the world into signing his peace treaty on threat of total destruction, this time through inaction.

I understand but in fairness he really just tried to force people to see that his way was best for not only the whole world, but the individual rulers and nations. Elaynes Andoran and Cairhienin seem to have taken a huge hit, one of the worst if not in the Battle at Merrilor. If Perrin, the new Queen of Saldeas consort, and steward of Andor wished it he could probably gain independance and have support from powerful allies to do so. With the Dragons peace this cant and wont happen, in any area of Randland. Of course Perrin would probably never do this because hes too honorable but others wouldnt be so charitable.

In both cases, Rands methods were wrong but his intentions are correct. I cant really blame him for it and with his status as the most powerful person in the world i guess he was trusting in this, his rep and his ta'veren nature to secure the deal

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As an aside, why do people have a problem with Egwenes new weave? I liked it, and the name. Egwene has a talent for weaves and discovering new ones, and as many people have said necessity is the mother of all creation, so i dont see why its out of the blue.

The sign of Aes Sedai IIRC is the flame of Tar Valon beside the Dragons fang. The Dragon is needed to defeat the DO but what about the Flame? Why is the Amyrlin the Flame of Tar Valon? The weave itself is integral to Rand winning, so perhaps this is the basis for the sign in the first place? Both are needed to win together

Without the Flame Demandreds and Taims balefire may have caused some serious damage, irrevocably perhaps. This discovery and Egwenes death gave Rand the push he needed to win and defeat the DO. People say it was never discovered in the AOLs and so is unbelievable, but pretty everything about the war in the AOLs was botched-LTT wasnt good enough to win completely, so perhaps it stands to reason that this weave was never discovered back then?

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Without the Flame Demandreds and Taims balefire may have caused some serious damage, irrevocably perhaps. This discovery and Egwenes death gave Rand the push he needed to win and defeat the DO. People say it was never discovered in the AOLs and so is unbelievable, but pretty everything about the war in the AOLs was botched-LTT wasnt good enough to win completely, so perhaps it stands to reason that this weave was never discovered back then?

I haven't seen people make the argument that it wasn't discovered in AOL... are they really saying that?!!? Because the series is loaded with examples of things that the AOL AS thought were impossible that were discovered by the modern "primitives." Curing of severing is just one prominent example.

Here's another aspect of the Dragon's Peace that becomes important, and I'm kind of surprised none of the characters brought it up while the Battle of Merrilor was going on... which army winds up in the strongest position after the battle? The Seanchen. And who was orchestrating the grand battle plan that put the Seanchen in such a grand position? The Prince of the Ravens. If Rand hadn't gotten Tuon's signature (and if she decides to follow it) then the weirdos from across the sea would have been in prime position to steamroll the rest of Randland.

Speaking of the Seanchen, I would have liked some reaction from Tuon regarding her feelings about the Sharans. Considering that she sees it as her right as a descendent of Hawkwing to take the lands, I wonder how she would react to learning that the Sharans are likely the remnants of Hawkwing's other fleet?

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I understand but in fairness he really just tried to force people to see that his way was best for not only the whole world, but the individual rulers and nations. Elaynes Andoran and Cairhienin seem to have taken a huge hit, one of the worst if not in the Battle at Merrilor. If Perrin, the new Queen of Saldeas consort, and steward of Andor wished it he could probably gain independance and have support from powerful allies to do so. With the Dragons peace this cant and wont happen, in any area of Randland. Of course Perrin would probably never do this because hes too honorable but others wouldnt be so charitable.

In both cases, Rands methods were wrong but his intentions are correct. I cant really blame him for it and with his status as the most powerful person in the world i guess he was trusting in this, his rep and his ta'veren nature to secure the deal

I disliked the very idea of having a document. It should have been more informal. 'I'm going to die for you at Shayol Ghul and when the last battle is done I ask that you support each other and be peaceful' . We know Rand becomes revered. He saved the world. We see this in one of the epilogues that describes the way he is remembered in the 4th age. We see this in Aviendha's viewing of the possible future. As it is the document will only be respected out of respect for Rand. So the document is not necessary, I'm sure it is still filled with loopholes etc (It was written in a day! Ambiguity is the death of any such document and it could hardly be so comprehensive as to cover all the necessary minutia). The thing we should take away from it is that Aes Sedai or whomever would never be so crass as to exploit the letter of the Dragon's peace over its intent. He should have described his intent had everyone agreed and then let the Grey Ajah/Sea folk write the document after the last battle with the Aiel as its judges.

Similarly why could he not be the leader of the forces of the light? He was at Shayol Ghul for only fraction of the last battle and when it became time how hard would it have been for him to delegate command to the Great Captains or Mat or Lan or Bela? Similarly Elayne seems to make a poor choice, she has no experience no matter the hand waving that was done to make her competent, but worse of all in much the same way that the Borderlands could not accept leadership, Elayne was a poor choice because she had an extreme conflict of interest! Her capital was overrun with Shadow Spawn. It struck me at this point just how bloated and off track the Wheel of Time had become when I realized that after 14 books Rand still had no idea that his best friend was the best general to ever live!

As an aside, why do people have a problem with Egwenes new weave? I liked it, and the name. Egwene has a talent for weaves and discovering new ones, and as many people have said necessity is the mother of all creation, so i dont see why its out of the blue.

Its disliked because it is poor storytelling! Its a chekovs gun problem but from the oppose direction. The book is filled with foreshadowings that never came to pass but instead the turning point in the defeat of the shadow is the use of a hitherto unknown and never even postulated weave! If it were something she had been working on, even thinking on for a few books it would have been fine. Instead she single handedly obliterates the forces of the dark tower and heals the pattern in her greatest moment of grief with a weave she just invented. Come to think that seems to fit her character of late in the series.

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