Jump to content

A Memory of Light [FULL SPOILER DISCUSSION] Part 2


Stubby

Recommended Posts

I haven't seen people make the argument that it wasn't discovered in AOL... are they really saying that?!!? Because the series is loaded with examples of things that the AOL AS thought were impossible that were discovered by the modern "primitives." Curing of severing is just one prominent example.

Here's another aspect of the Dragon's Peace that becomes important, and I'm kind of surprised none of the characters brought it up while the Battle of Merrilor was going on... which army winds up in the strongest position after the battle? The Seanchen. And who was orchestrating the grand battle plan that put the Seanchen in such a grand position? The Prince of the Ravens. If Rand hadn't gotten Tuon's signature (and if she decides to follow it) then the weirdos from across the sea would have been in prime position to steamroll the rest of Randland.

Speaking of the Seanchen, I would have liked some reaction from Tuon regarding her feelings about the Sharans. Considering that she sees it as her right as a descendent of Hawkwing to take the lands, I wonder how she would react to learning that the Sharans are likely the remnants of Hawkwing's other fleet?

The Sharans crushed hawkwings other fleet. I think we can be assured of the veracity of this as well. I forget the source, might be word of god in one of the glossaries, I also think the SeaFolk mention seing the invasion end in disaster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't seen people make the argument that it wasn't discovered in AOL... are they really saying that?!!? Because the series is loaded with examples of things that the AOL AS thought were impossible that were discovered by the modern "primitives." Curing of severing is just one prominent example.

Here's another aspect of the Dragon's Peace that becomes important, and I'm kind of surprised none of the characters brought it up while the Battle of Merrilor was going on... which army winds up in the strongest position after the battle? The Seanchen. And who was orchestrating the grand battle plan that put the Seanchen in such a grand position? The Prince of the Ravens. If Rand hadn't gotten Tuon's signature (and if she decides to follow it) then the weirdos from across the sea would have been in prime position to steamroll the rest of Randland.

Well iv seen it below and in browsing on other forums which im not a part of. Its a part that i dont understand

The Seanchan were integral to the Peace. I believe Rand states that if she didnt agree he would have to do something about-destroying at least temporarily their ability to make war i would think

I disliked the very idea of having a document. It should have been more informal. 'I'm going to die for you at Shayol Ghul and when the last battle is done I ask that you support each other and be peaceful' . We know Rand becomes revered. He saved the world. We see this in one of the epilogues that describes the way he is remembered in the 4th age. We see this in Aviendha's viewing of the possible future. As it is the document will only be respected out of respect for Rand. So the document is not necessary, I'm sure it is still filled with loopholes etc (It was written in a day! Ambiguity is the death of any such document and it could hardly be so comprehensive as to cover all the necessary minutia). The thing we should take away from it is that Aes Sedai or whomever would never be so crass as to exploit the letter of the Dragon's peace over its intent. He should have described his intent had everyone agreed and then let the Grey Ajah/Sea folk write the document after the last battle with the Aiel as its judges.

Similarly why could he not be the leader of the forces of the light? He was at Shayol Ghul for only fraction of the last battle and when it became time how hard would it have been for him to delegate command to the Great Captains or Mat or Lan or Bela? Similarly Elayne seems to make a poor choice, she has no experience no matter the hand waving that was done to make her competent, but worse of all in much the same way that the Borderlands could not accept leadership, Elayne was a poor choice because she had an extreme conflict of interest! Her capital was overrun with Shadow Spawn. It struck me at this point just how bloated and off track the Wheel of Time had become when I realized that after 14 books Rand still had no idea that his best friend was the best general to ever live!

Its disliked because it is poor storytelling! Its a chekovs gun problem but from the oppose direction. The book is filled with foreshadowings that never came to pass but instead the turning point in the defeat of the shadow is the use of a hitherto unknown and never even postulated weave! If it were something she had been working on, even thinking on for a few books it would have been fine. Instead she single handedly obliterates the forces of the dark tower and heals the pattern in her greatest moment of grief with a weave she just invented. Come to think that seems to fit her character of late in the series.

It stands to reason that there should be a equal and opposite weave. What are we told constantly about the great powers? It just took Perrin spelling it out for us to see it

Rand supervised Elaynes preparation for a fair while, but rightly knew that she needed to have some authority when hes gone to SG which he must. I also believe Rand knew Mat would eventually come to lead the battle at Merrilor. He needed Mat where he was so he was sure that Mat would bring the Seanchan and convince them to fight

The point of the document, is that even if theres a loophole, may or may not be, these are the words of the saviour of the world, his last wishes and legacy. All leaders have signed and the Aiel are ready to enforce his word. Sure they all could have just said there piece but theres a reason that the written word is held in such high esteem. It had to be done infront of Rand. All are honor bound to hold to it. Now to break it, pretty much all have to do so at once. Its a far stronger peace this way

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with 'the flame of tar'valon' is that a) the name is pretentious, B) Egwene pulled it out of her ass deus ex machina style to the max. Also what everyone else said about there being no foreshadowing to it at all (and as also mentioned a ton of shit that got foreshadowed/prophesied got ignored/pushed to the side/whatever) and so on.

Also from my point of view if there's gonna be some uberweave like that it NEEDS to be woven from both Saidin and Saidar. It's said time and again that all the best stuff is done with both halves. That's kinda a major theme - the whole gender conflict thing, but the best stuff can only be done when men and women work together. It's really hammered in in every single book. And instead in the final book we get a female-only ass-pull Taim killing world saver. It's kinda off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with 'the flame of tar'valon' is that a) the name is pretentious, B) Egwene pulled it out of her ass deus ex machina style to the max. Also what everyone else said about there being no foreshadowing to it at all (and as also mentioned a ton of shit that got foreshadowed/prophesied got ignored/pushed to the side/whatever) and so on.

Also from my point of view if there's gonna be some uberweave like that it NEEDS to be woven from both Saidin and Saidar. It's said time and again that all the best stuff is done with both halves. That's kinda a major theme - the whole gender conflict thing, but the best stuff can only be done when men and women work together. It's really hammered in in every single book. And instead in the final book we get a female-only ass-pull Taim killing world saver. It's kinda off.

Maybe it only works infused with a male channeled balefire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with 'the flame of tar'valon' is that a) the name is pretentious, B) Egwene pulled it out of her ass deus ex machina style to the max. Also what everyone else said about there being no foreshadowing to it at all (and as also mentioned a ton of shit that got foreshadowed/prophesied got ignored/pushed to the side/whatever) and so on.

Also from my point of view if there's gonna be some uberweave like that it NEEDS to be woven from both Saidin and Saidar. It's said time and again that all the best stuff is done with both halves. That's kinda a major theme - the whole gender conflict thing, but the best stuff can only be done when men and women work together. It's really hammered in in every single book. And instead in the final book we get a female-only ass-pull Taim killing world saver. It's kinda off.

Ya i agree but i think its the right name. We know the purpose of the dragon, the dark side of the Aes sedai sign, But whats the purpose of the white side, the Flame of Tar Valon? Its kind of been foreshadowed in small ways-Balefire, the ultimate destroyer, forbidden by all. But theres no power so great that doesnt have an equal or opposite. Look at the sayings about the five powers from the first book. Also theres Perrins line, which i know comes late in i think TGS or TOM, but makes sense. Its always stressed-forces always have an equal and opposite force. Its a basic law which is no different in Randland-DO, Creator, Champion of Light, Champion of Dark, Saidin, Saidar, Fire, Air etc

Is there any weave that only can be done using the two powers? Theres works that have been done but no weave IIRC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with 'the flame of tar'valon' is that a) the name is pretentious, B) Egwene pulled it out of her ass deus ex machina style to the max.

And it needn't have been that way. Egwene is a master of making Cuendillar, the only known thing that can resist Balefire. It stands to reason that she was able to use her knowledge of that to come up with something to beat back Balefire real time and healed the Pattern (another think Cuendillar-like weaves should be able to do, since it took the DO 3000 years to break the Cuendillar Seals). We could have seen her reason it out a little, tied it in with her early fascination with Balefire, and voila... its not deus ex machina anymore. Its little things like this that could have been easily resolved that bug me about the last book.

Also from my point of view if there's gonna be some uberweave like that it NEEDS to be woven from both Saidin and Saidar.

But balefire doesn't need both. Why would its opposite? That completely negates the entire concept of balance.

ETA: About the name. Its not so much that the name isn't somewhat fitting. Its Egwene herself calling it "Flame of Tar Valon" which rings untrue. Its so... childish... to name something you created after one of your titles. Now, if Leanne had named it that after she sees it in action, then it would have been better. Plus, this way the name would actually have served a purpose. What's the point of a name that no one knows?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the enormous scope of what Egwene does with the weave, the fact that it comes out of nowhere, and the name all combine to give that moment a very comic-book feel, which distracts from the dramatic seriousness of the series' lead female character dying. I have some deeper issues with it-- Jordan tended to use the notion of balance within the Pattern as a narrative get-out-of-jail-free card, which annoys me-- but the execution more than the concept is what really lets it down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the enormous scope of what Egwene does with the weave, the fact that it comes out of nowhere, and the name all combine to give that moment a very comic-book feel, which distracts from the dramatic seriousness of the series' lead female character dying. I have some deeper issues with it-- Jordan tended to use the notion of balance within the Pattern as a narrative get-out-of-jail-free card, which annoys me-- but the execution more than the concept is what really lets it down.

I have no problems with there being something able to resist balefire. This isn't even the first thing to do it, we've known Cuendillar can for books. That there should be an active weave that can reverse the effects of Balefire isn't shocking.

As you say, the execution lets it down. Also, I'm kind of miffed that no one but a single Aes Sedai noticed a giant column of light shooting into the sky in the pitch darkness of the Last Battle. Why didn't others like Mat notice it? That could have been a nice send-off for Egwene. Instead we got another attack on the left flank of Random Bunch of Trollocs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's something that's been bugging me for a while, apologies if this has been discussed before. So Rand switches body with Moridin, only his 3 ladies (and may be Alivia) are aware of this. So, how was it that there was nobody guarding the recuperating leader of the forsaken and the champion of the DO? There should be an army of Aes Sedai, Ashamans etc guarding him, right?Also when Rand left, everybody would think that Ishamael is loose on the world and would by after him. Why the hell Rand thinks that he is going to be able to enjoy a few years of peace and quiet, just travelling the world?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ya i agree but i think its the right name. We know the purpose of the dragon, the dark side of the Aes sedai sign, But whats the purpose of the white side, the Flame of Tar Valon? Its kind of been foreshadowed in small ways-Balefire, the ultimate destroyer, forbidden by all. But theres no power so great that doesnt have an equal or opposite. Look at the sayings about the five powers from the first book. Also theres Perrins line, which i know comes late in i think TGS or TOM, but makes sense. Its always stressed-forces always have an equal and opposite force. Its a basic law which is no different in Randland-DO, Creator, Champion of Light, Champion of Dark, Saidin, Saidar, Fire, Air etc

Is there any weave that only can be done using the two powers? Theres works that have been done but no weave IIRC

The dragon fangs purpose is? Its never once that I recall associated with balefire (which is without doubt an evil weave, though not in the sense of belonging to the shadow). Even calling it the dark side of the symbol is wrong. Its ying and yang. Its not dark and light or Good and evil. Its everything. Its hot and cold, male and female, life and death, good and evil,push and pull and most of all represents that opposites are in fact interconnected and interdependent. Darkness is the absence of light its not something that 'exists' in itself.

Also not everything has a balance. After all their are five powers, which is an uneven number. Also their is no champion of shadow a polar opposite of the dragon. When Morridin claimed to be the dragons ancient recurring enemy he was insane and thought he was the dark one. The dragon rather seems to be some kind of uber-soul the champion of the light or the shadow, he is seemingly somehow the lynchpin of the pattern and that's why the dark one tried so hard to recruit him. Also what is the opposite of heartsone? Nothing can break it, not even balefire! So then is there another weave even more powerful The dark one breaking the seals does not count since he and the true power are outside the pattern. Again, why he cant have his own champion being reborn throughout the ages via the pattern. Padan fain and his power has no opossite and is apparently something entirely unique in all the turnings of the wheel (admittedly the metaphysics here are very vague).

Besides the opposite of balefire, which burns threads from the pattern and erases them through time would be a force that freezes the pattern in time (The crytsallization of the pattern). Such a thing to my mind would be just as detrimental to the pattern and the turning of the weave but most importantly would have absolutely no special anti-shadow powers. At best it might have anti-channelers-who-channel-balefire-regularly powers. It would be safe only to use it against balefire but not on its own.

Here's something that's been bugging me for a while, apologies if this has been discussed before. So Rand switches body with Moridin, only his 3 ladies (and may be Alivia) are aware of this. So, how was it that there was nobody guarding the recuperating leader of the forsaken and the champion of the DO? There should be an army of Aes Sedai, Ashamans etc guarding him, right?Also when Rand left, everybody would think that Ishamael is loose on the world and would by after him. Why the hell Rand thinks that he is going to be able to enjoy a few years of peace and quiet, just travelling the world?

Sadly not even the biggest plot hole!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's something that's been bugging me for a while, apologies if this has been discussed before. So Rand switches body with Moridin, only his 3 ladies (and may be Alivia) are aware of this. So, how was it that there was nobody guarding the recuperating leader of the forsaken and the champion of the DO? There should be an army of Aes Sedai, Ashamans etc guarding him, right?Also when Rand left, everybody would think that Ishamael is loose on the world and would by after him. Why the hell Rand thinks that he is going to be able to enjoy a few years of peace and quiet, just travelling the world?

I don't think that is much of an issue.

We have seen since the start that the DO's crew are pretty much self-serving. Even when Lanfear turns up at the cave at the end of it all she is still hoping to unseat Moridin. Even Moggy, after Dem is dead, is wanting to take the reins. It was just unlikely that they would work together - whether that was the forsaken collectively or in their interations with other DF's.

ETA: Or, if you meant after the DO was sealed up, my read was that no-one cared enough to act on his behalf any more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nynaeve specifically said that she and Damer Flinn tried to heal both Rand and Moridin and that both were dying and beyond even her help.

We might presume that she declared Moridin's body dead at the same time as Rand's and they all left his body alone while they prepared the funeral rites for Rand's body.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nynaeve specifically said that she and Damer Flinn tried to heal both Rand and Moridin and that both were dying and beyond even her help.

We might presume that she declared Moridin's body dead at the same time as Rand's and they all left his body alone while they prepared the funeral rites for Rand's body.

She actually says its unfair that rand should be dying while the other one grows stronger

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think that is much of an issue.

We have seen since the start that the DO's crew are pretty much self-serving. Even when Lanfear turns up at the cave at the end of it all she is still hoping to unseat Moridin. Even Moggy, after Dem is dead, is wanting to take the reins. It was just unlikely that they would work together - whether that was the forsaken collectively or in their interations with other DF's.

ETA: Or, if you meant after the DO was sealed up, my read was that no-one cared enough to act on his behalf any more.

I was not talking about the darkfriends. My point was even after the DO is sealed, the forces of the Light should have been guarding the recuperating leader of the forsaken. He was the one who led the forces of the Dark (trolloc wars etc) when the DO was sealed the last time. Surely the Aes Sedai and the rest wolud make guarding the person who they think is Ishamael, their highest priority.

Poobah, Cause has already responded to your argument and he is absolutely correct. Nynaeve has mentioned that Moridin was getting stronger; it was Rand who was dying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was not talking about the darkfriends. My point was even after the DO is sealed, the forces of the Light should have been guarding the recuperating leader of the forsaken. He was the one who led the forces of the Dark (trolloc wars etc) when the DO was sealed the last time. Surely the Aes Sedai and the rest wolud make guarding the person who they think is Ishamael, their highest priority.

Poobah, Cause has already responded to your argument and he is absolutely correct. Nynaeve has mentioned that Moridin was getting stronger; it was Rand who was dying.

Moridin/Rand walks away because there is no spoon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wait, how many people on either side knew that Moridin was Ishamael, and what he looked like? Motherfucker didn't exactly have "Wanted" posters of himself hanging around. For the vast majority of folks in the world, Rand now just looks like some dude.

Re: The Flame of Tar Valon- I think the name is the only thing that really bugged me; like Fionwe says, having Egwene name it that in her head on the fly came off as super-pretentious. I actually went ahead and assumed it was related to the cuendillar weave while reading, so that didn't really bother me that much, though more exposition on that point would've been nice. And yeah, both males and females can weave balefire independently of one another, so there's no reason this new shenanigan should require both.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also their is no champion of shadow a polar opposite of the dragon. When Morridin claimed to be the dragons ancient recurring enemy he was insane and thought he was the dark one. The dragon rather seems to be some kind of uber-soul the champion of the light or the shadow, he is seemingly somehow the lynchpin of the pattern and that's why the dark one tried so hard to recruit him. Also what is the opposite of heartsone? Nothing can break it, not even balefire! So then is there another weave even more powerful The dark one breaking the seals does not count since he and the true power are outside the pattern. Again, why he cant have his own champion being reborn throughout the ages via the pattern. Padan fain and his power has no opossite and is apparently something entirely unique in all the turnings of the wheel (admittedly the metaphysics here are very vague).

Moridin is the champion of the Dark. The creator is the balance of the Dark One, Besides telling Rand essentially "Lets get ready to Rumble" right before Rand goes into the Pit the Creator does nothing in the big fight. Besides a meaningless sword fight Moridin does nothing in the big fight. Balance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ETA: About the name. Its not so much that the name isn't somewhat fitting. Its Egwene herself calling it "Flame of Tar Valon" which rings untrue. Its so... childish... to name something you created after one of your titles. Now, if Leanne had named it that after she sees it in action, then it would have been better. Plus, this way the name would actually have served a purpose. What's the point of a name that no one knows?

Agree whole heartedly with you here. Its not the name, just who names it

I think the enormous scope of what Egwene does with the weave, the fact that it comes out of nowhere, and the name all combine to give that moment a very comic-book feel, which distracts from the dramatic seriousness of the series' lead female character dying. I have some deeper issues with it-- Jordan tended to use the notion of balance within the Pattern as a narrative get-out-of-jail-free card, which annoys me-- but the execution more than the concept is what really lets it down.

I guess weve heard many times of what channelers can do when they take in enough power to burn themselves out. Look at the Queen of Manetherens last stand where she destroyed a big army of trollocs, LTT and Dragonmount. Egwene had a very powerful sa'angreal so the power of the weave doesnt bother me

Here's something that's been bugging me for a while, apologies if this has been discussed before. So Rand switches body with Moridin, only his 3 ladies (and may be Alivia) are aware of this. So, how was it that there was nobody guarding the recuperating leader of the forsaken and the champion of the DO? There should be an army of Aes Sedai, Ashamans etc guarding him, right?Also when Rand left, everybody would think that Ishamael is loose on the world and would by after him. Why the hell Rand thinks that he is going to be able to enjoy a few years of peace and quiet, just travelling the world?

My guess is that like Rand, he was burned out and can no longer channel. Hence hes not so much of a threat anymore. Alivia was probably guarding him, hence helping Rand to die. As others have pointed out Rand can probably change his appearance at will now, like one can in TAR

She actually says its unfair that rand should be dying while the other one grows stronger

Agreed

Wait, how many people on either side knew that Moridin was Ishamael, and what he looked like? Motherfucker didn't exactly have "Wanted" posters of himself hanging around. For the vast majority of folks in the world, Rand now just looks like some dude.

Re: The Flame of Tar Valon- I think the name is the only thing that really bugged me; like Fionwe says, having Egwene name it that in her head on the fly came off as super-pretentious. I actually went ahead and assumed it was related to the cuendillar weave while reading, so that didn't really bother me that much, though more exposition on that point would've been nice. And yeah, both males and females can weave balefire independently of one another, so there's no reason this new shenanigan should require both.

Nynaeve and Moiaraine would have known who he was from inside SG

Moridin is the champion of the Dark. The creator is the balance of the Dark One, Besides telling Rand essentially "Lets get ready to Rumble" right before Rand goes into the Pit the Creator does nothing in the big fight. Besides a meaningless sword fight Moridin does nothing in the big fight. Balance.

This is my thought on the matter also

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The dragon fangs purpose is? Its never once that I recall associated with balefire (which is without doubt an evil weave, though not in the sense of belonging to the shadow). Even calling it the dark side of the symbol is wrong. Its ying and yang. Its not dark and light or Good and evil. Its everything. Its hot and cold, male and female, life and death, good and evil,push and pull and most of all represents that opposites are in fact interconnected and interdependent. Darkness is the absence of light its not something that 'exists' in itself.

Also not everything has a balance. After all their are five powers, which is an uneven number. Also their is no champion of shadow a polar opposite of the dragon. When Morridin claimed to be the dragons ancient recurring enemy he was insane and thought he was the dark one. The dragon rather seems to be some kind of uber-soul the champion of the light or the shadow, he is seemingly somehow the lynchpin of the pattern and that's why the dark one tried so hard to recruit him. Also what is the opposite of heartsone? Nothing can break it, not even balefire! So then is there another weave even more powerful The dark one breaking the seals does not count since he and the true power are outside the pattern. Again, why he cant have his own champion being reborn throughout the ages via the pattern. Padan fain and his power has no opossite and is apparently something entirely unique in all the turnings of the wheel (admittedly the metaphysics here are very vague).

Besides the opposite of balefire, which burns threads from the pattern and erases them through time would be a force that freezes the pattern in time (The crytsallization of the pattern). Such a thing to my mind would be just as detrimental to the pattern and the turning of the weave but most importantly would have absolutely no special anti-shadow powers. At best it might have anti-channelers-who-channel-balefire-regularly powers. It would be safe only to use it against balefire but not on its own.

The dragon fang is the symbol of the dragon, LTT, Rand and the innumerable incarnations of that soul. The ancient sign of Aes Sedai is this symbol blended in with the Flame of Tar Valon. My point is that everyone knows what the Dragon is needed for. Nobody knew what the other half of the symbol, the Flame, was for. Hence the fact that both parts of this forgotten sign were needed to defeat the DO has a symmetry to it which i find appealing and makes sense. As an aside theres also no such thing as the cold, its just the absence of heat

As far as i know Moridin is Rands opposite, and his soul has been reborn like Rands many times. He is Rands opposite. Spirit is different i agree but the other four all have their counterparts and none is sronger than the other. Padan Fain has been marked out by RJ as an anomally of this turning. However, cases like he are by far the exception, not the rule

Balefire burns the thread. The opposite would not crystallise it or freeze it. Freezing burns as surely as fire. The opposite of someone burning a piece of string, destroying it in essence, would be creating that string, or remaking it

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wait, how many people on either side knew that Moridin was Ishamael, and what he looked like? Motherfucker didn't exactly have "Wanted" posters of himself hanging around. For the vast majority of folks in the world, Rand now just looks like some dude.

But Moiraine, Nynaeve and the rest of the decision makers did. So I find it surprising that Moridin (in their eyes) was not under heavy guard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...