A Memory of Light [FULL SPOILER DISCUSSION] Part 2

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Yes, that is part of the problem with the ending. Oh, all this people dies, oh well, let's move on.

I obviously had never been in a existential conflict, but does the euphoria of having won the conflict erase all the trauma of having so many close ones die?

[Guy Kilmore]

You're not pesky, you're just furious that you're a woman and a woman in the book was getting hurt by a man. When that happens you have an innate desire to criticize it.

You Sir, are a jackass. [sarcasm] Well done! [/sarcasm]

[Shryke]

Yes, that is part of the problem with the ending. Oh, all this people dies, oh well, let's move on.

I obviously had never been in a existential conflict, but does the euphoria of having won the conflict erase all the trauma of having so many close ones die?

Partially it seems to be the books general lack of character moments. And partially that the book is supposed to end right after the Last Battle so there's not a ton of time given for that kind of reflection.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Partially it seems to be the books general lack of character moments. And partially that the book is supposed to end right after the Last Battle so there's not a ton of time given for that kind of reflection.

Instead we get hundred of repetitive pages about so and so having trouble holding the left/right flank. As a fan of reading about military tactics, these pages were so boring, because I never got a sense of the battle, and understood why those individual skirmishes were important to the overall battlefield.

[Darth Richard]

Still think the book should have ended with Rand spanking the Dark One to death.

Sorry.

[Frey Pie]

Seemed like i missed some drama!! Dissapointing...

In any case i think a lot of people are overstating the use of gateways. Androl has a talent for it, its far easier for him then it is for others. Its quite tiring for others. Rand also gives an unfair view of gateways, being hugely powerful, more so then any other character

Also for the death toll people should look at http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/79055-the-butchers-bill-full-spoilers/

I think theres alot more deaths then people get upon first read. The Aiel are absolutely decimated, i think 8 chiefs die in the fighting, all ones we know and have met. There is a huge amount of death in the book, and the length of the battle chapters gives us the sense of the almost inexhaustable numbers of trollocs, the desperation and weariness of war and so forth. Although this isnt the way i would have written the battles, i can see what BS was going for and i think it comes true quite well

[Maia]

Maybe the Crystal Throne only works for women *shrugs*

My theory always was that the Throne only works for at least a latent channeler. Wasn't it mentioned that the last Emperor was a madman?

Anyway, women spark much earlier than men, so they'd normally get collared/eliminated before inheriting, but men spark as late as 30, so there was a risk that a male heir could spark at the most innoportune moment.

Remember when Rand destroyed the Seanchan Border army? Or when he killed all the Trollocs in the Stone of Tear? Or when Lewis Terrin ripped open a vulcano that is still active after 3000 years?

The point is that earlier in the series it wasn't hard to kill uncountable numbers of Trollocs. At all.

Indeed. Nor were gateways tiring.

But RJ has spent books and books having Our Heroes sloowly assemble mundane troops and presented it as important for the Last Battle. Oh, and the clearly telegraphed supreme commander of TG has been agressively ignorant about channeling and what it can do throughout the series!

Ditto all the other military characters, while the Greens are all flighty, horny women who have no clue about military strategy, tactics or battles (sic!).

Not to mention that Mat has been developing and building cannons on completely ridiculous time-frame.

Yet at the same time, RJ had the attack on that manor in KoD, where a small group of channelers, without using angreal, easily destroyed 100K Trollocs.

IMHO, with such a set-up, military aspects of TG could have never made sense. I suspect that Jordan may have been better able to depict emotions of people fighting and their reactions to losses, but the battle itself was a lost cause, IMHO.

Re: lack of deaths of major characters - yea, it was cheap, since they were in danger. In fact, if we are looking at the fake deaths, they were all in extreme danger and not even really of the main cast... and yet they got better.

But even more so was impausible survival of scads of even somewhat detailed characters throughout the series. What was the point of Morgase and Dobraine surviving their brushes with death? Of course there wasn't sufficient build-up of dread, since only faceless masses were dying! And usually off-screen too.

And in the epilog, well, nobody seems to think about huge famine they are now facing, the one that Min _saw_ would kill tons of people.

[Gertrude]

The Lord of the Rings would be the book where the hero is so badly wounded that he's regularly in pain, a shadow of his former self, and the only available consolation is a tearful parting from his friends for a healing sojourn in the earthly paradise. Whereas A Memory of Light is the book where the hero gets a fresh new body and wanders off to have neat-o adventures and intermittently visit his three wives. As I've already said twice, it's not character deaths in isolation, it's the overall awareness that war damages people permanently. I'm not saying Jordan "should" have killed off more people, or that the book would be more meaningful if he had; I'm saying that, in character deaths and in many other ways, the book doesn't do justice to the horrors of war. Anyone can write "ten thousand nameless characters died;" that's not showing the horrors of war, at least not in any way that indicates actual skill. Intention is not the same as success.

Truth.

[Galleymac]

Still think the book should have ended with Rand spanking the Dark One to death.

Sorry.

:thumbsup:

[Gertrude]

Also for the death toll people should look at http://www.dragonmou...-full-spoilers/

OK, let's look

Death Toll:

The Light:

Egwene al'Vere: Died via overuse of the OP through a sa'angreal that lacked a buffer. Took out M'Hael and hundreds of Sharan Channelers in the process with her anti-balefire weave. This weave also partially restored the Pattern and possibly saved it from falling apart.

Birgitte Silverbow: Killed by Hanlon when he and his DF's attack Elayne. Comes back again as a Hero of the Horn, and kills Mellar and fights the rest of the LB alongside Elayne. Stays to see Rand's funeral and say goodbye to Elayne. She mentions she is being reborn as she fades away.

Gawyn Trakand: Killed by Demandred in a sword duel.

Rhuarc, Clan Chief of the Taarad Aiel, Nine Valleys Sept. Aethan Dor: Compelled by Graendal, killed by Aviendha when he attacks her.

Suian Sanche: Died saving Mat and Tuon from a burning tent, mirroring the story she told Mat in tDR.

Gareth Byrne: Killed while fighting Shadowspawn (presumably) in a suicidal charge because of the Warder Rage felt with Suian's death.

Davram and Diera Bashere: Killed by Shadowspawn at the FoM, fighting in the ordinary ranks, guilty because of Graendal's Compulsion.

Alanna Mosvani: Killed by Moridin via knife at Shayol Ghul in an attempt to induce the Warder Rage with Rand. Released the bond before she died.

Hurin: Fell fighting Shadowspawn at the FoM to by Lord Rand enough time to defeat the DO.

Arlen Naalam: Killed in the fighting in Androl's rescue attempt of Logain.

Evin Vinchova: Turned by the Dreadlords at the Black Tower. Androl uses his madness to make him lash out at the other Dreadlords. Killed by

Bulen: Killed on the Sheinarian battlefront hiding his wounds. Preserved in snow by Lan and Narishma to be retrieved as a Lord of Malkier.

Beldeine Nyram : Min's viewing fulfilled, she is killed by Sharans wielding black daggers.

Karldin Manfor: Dies with Beldeine.

Romanda Cassin: Killed doing what she does best. Ignoring orders. Killed by Sharan channelers when she tried to embrace the Source to escape the Kandori battlefront.

Deepe Bhadar: Killed by Dreadlords trying to take down M'Hael on the Shienarian battlefront.

Trom: Whitecloak officer, friend of Galad. Killed off-screen during the battle at Cairhien.

Berisha Terakuni: Injured by the bubble of evil at Tar Valon, then murdered by Aravine.

Alsalam Saeed Almadar: Slain at the Shayol Ghul battlefront off-screen.

Tenobia Kazadi: Killed off-screen fighting Shadowspawn on the Shienarian front. Graendal's Compulsion on Alegmar put her in a position to be killed.

Kiruna Nachiman: Killed by Graendal at Thakandar. Due to being in a Circle with Aviendha, could not fight back.

Faeldrin Harella: Killed by Graendal in the same circumstances as Kiruna.

Kwamesa Sedai: Killed by Demandred at the FoM battle.

Bertain Gallenne: Slain on the Andor/Cairhien battlefront.

Doesine Alwain: Killed by Sharan channelers at the FoM battle.

Jori Congar: Bled to death under a Trolloc at the FoM.

Enaila of the Chareen Aiel, Jarra Sept: Killed at the FoM by four Trollocs.

Sashalle Anderly: Compelled by Graendal and drained of strength. Presumably dead.

Vitalien: Sarene's Warder. Killed by Graendal when Sarene was taken as a "pet".

The Shadow:

Moridin: After the body-swap, Moridin is burned in Rand's body.

Demandred: Killed by Lan at the FoM.

Cyndane/Lanfear: Killed by Perrin after he overcomes her compulsion while she is about to kill Moriaine.

Mazrim Taim/ M'Hael: Killed by Egwene with the anti-balefire weave. Crystalized with Sarkanen.

Isam Mandragoran/ Luc Mantear/ Slayer: Killed by Perrin's hammer-blow with something to do with flickering.

David Hanlon: Killed by Birgitte after she returns as a Hero of the Horn while assaulting Elayne.

Aravine Carnel: Betrayed Faile and revealed as a Darkfriend. Killed by Faile while trying to take the Horn to Demandred.

Duhara Basaheen: Killed by Aviendha in the first assault on Thakandar, abandoned by Graendal.

Falion Bhoda: Killed by Aviendha, same as Duhara.

Jeaine Caide: Killed by Thomdil Merrilin trying to enter the Pit of Doom. (Four others had been killed like this, most likely the remaining Black Ajah we didn't hear from in the book. I'd say they were probably the ones left over from Moghedien's group.)

Other:

Padain Fain/Mordeth/Shaisam: Killed by Mat at Shayol Ghul, pierced in the heart by the Ruby Dagger.

Effectively dead, yet technically alive:

Graendal/Hessalam: Compulsion backfired when Aviendha un-wove her Gateway, reduced to a mindless adoring pet. May be able to be healed, however, it is unlikely that they would do so even if they could.

Sarene Nemdahl: Under Graendal's heavy Compulsion. Nynaeve may be able to heal it fully, however, she would most likely die or be a husk.

Kurin Mezar: Turned by Dreadlords at the Black Tower. Fate unknown. (May have died in the Black Tower when Androl opened the floor-gateway thing.)

Welyn Kajima: "Same as Mezar"

Donalo Sandomere: Turned by Dreadlords. Fought at the FoM. Captured with Mishraile and Aliviarin by the Ogier. The Turning may someday be able to be Healed, however, currently he is for all intents and purposes dead.

Ayako Norsoni: Bonded to Donalo, Turned. In the same situation as him.

Tarna Feir: Turned. Fate unknown.

Toveine Gazal: Turned, released from the Bond by Logain. Fate Unknown.

Egwene - dramatic and sad, but not horrific. Inspiring and she will be remembered a hero. Tragic loss for the future of the White Tower, but I believe she has sketched a foundation that will be meaninfgul.

Birgitte - doesn't count. It's even a good thing she died as it restored the rightful balance and her sense of self.

Gawyn - dumbass

Rhuarc - that one broke my heart, it did.

Siuan, Gareth, Davram, Diera - cared about the characters, but not one whit about their deaths.

Allana - big deal?

Hurin, Jori Congar - aw (but not for more than a moment)

Tenobia - fully expected and was a non-issue.

Bulen - now this one I cared about. This was written well. He was a very minor character, but his death and Lan's reaction impacted me. That it inspired the tradition of recounting how the fallen had died and kept the others strong to continue the fight. That's how they should be written.

17 more that I barely remember or just don't remember at all. This is just for the light. The names of others who are fate unknown I barely remember or care about either.

I vote not impactful. Like at all (with 3 exceptions - Egwene, Bulen, Rhuarc)

[Frey Pie]

I gotta disagree respectively in some cases Gertrude. Birgittes death was brutal-shes been a core character for books now, to see her head swiped from her shoulder by such a reviled character is shocking IMHO. Gawyn may have been an idiot but in other times he would have done well. He was a character i could sympathise with so his death, as IIRC it was the first major one, was a hit. Hurin and Jory were also sore ones. But really the fact that 7 or 8 Aiel chiefs died really hit me hard. I always viewed these guys as above the Kings of the wetlands-they seemed towering men, along with the Wise Ones. That so many went down-Rhuarc, Bael, Han etc to guard Rand is heavy indeed

Hurin?? The guy was so happy to meet Rand....so trusting

Also three of the four great captains are dead-Gareth, Davram and Agelmar. All in all i have to say there was enough deaths and many of them had emotionally evocative deaths. Then again to each his own

[Gertrude]

Birgitte's death was brutal, but her life was going to be brutal for her if she continued living. It may have been shocking for a moment, but we didn't even have time to digest it before she was all bad-ass standing astride her own corpse raining down justice. The awesomeness and relief overwhelmed any temporary regret we had for her death.

But like you said - to each their own :cheers:

[Frey Pie]

Birgitte's death was brutal, but her life was going to be brutal for her if she continued living. It may have been shocking for a moment, but we didn't even have time to digest it before she was all bad-ass standing astride her own corpse raining down justice. The awesomeness and relief overwhelmed any temporary regret we had for her death.

But like you said - to each their own :cheers:

True she did have a quick return. However, she had a pretty sad time of it in AMOL. She finally lost her memories aswel. I think BS handled her well. Were you at any stage frightened for Elaynes babies? Theres been so much talk about her being safe till there born, them being cut out would have been awful

right back at ya :cheers:

[Gertrude]

Not really. I may have had a moment of 'well, that could happen, I suppose', but I was expecting some kind of rescue. I dunno - the appearance of Hanlon (?) whatever his name was just seemed too cheesy for me to feel real danger. Apparently I am a bit jaded.

[Frey Pie]

Not really. I may have had a moment of 'well, that could happen, I suppose', but I was expecting some kind of rescue. I dunno - the appearance of Hanlon (?) whatever his name was just seemed too cheesy for me to feel real danger. Apparently I am a bit jaded.

Haha i would have been disapointed if he hadnt. Hes one of the few non-channeling DFs that we meet thats competent and has a true darkness about him. I would have dismissed him but for the killing of Birgitte so nonchalently. Then he has an Ashaman with him who says he can keep the babies alive if theyre cut out and that the DO wants them to break Rand-i found it all very convincing and found myself worrying for the first time that something very personal and horrific was going to happen. This is what i beleive BS says was his Martinesque moment

[Gertrude]

I think the cheesiness was his last minute arrival, not him. Dunno. I can see where it was supposed to be chilling and the plausibility of Min's prophecy and how Elayne has been flaunting it comes back to bite her, but it just didn't work so much on me. *shrug*

[Derfel Cadarn]

Whatever happened to Weiramon? I was looking forward to him getting his moment of glory and leading a brigade of darkfriend cavalry in an ill-judged charge against Daerid's pikemen.

[fionwe1987]

OK, let's look

Death Toll:

The Light:

Egwene al'Vere: Died via overuse of the OP through a sa'angreal that lacked a buffer. Took out M'Hael and hundreds of Sharan Channelers in the process with her anti-balefire weave. This weave also partially restored the Pattern and possibly saved it from falling apart.

Birgitte Silverbow: Killed by Hanlon when he and his DF's attack Elayne. Comes back again as a Hero of the Horn, and kills Mellar and fights the rest of the LB alongside Elayne. Stays to see Rand's funeral and say goodbye to Elayne. She mentions she is being reborn as she fades away.

Gawyn Trakand: Killed by Demandred in a sword duel.

Rhuarc, Clan Chief of the Taarad Aiel, Nine Valleys Sept. Aethan Dor: Compelled by Graendal, killed by Aviendha when he attacks her.

Suian Sanche: Died saving Mat and Tuon from a burning tent, mirroring the story she told Mat in tDR.

Gareth Byrne: Killed while fighting Shadowspawn (presumably) in a suicidal charge because of the Warder Rage felt with Suian's death.

Davram and Diera Bashere: Killed by Shadowspawn at the FoM, fighting in the ordinary ranks, guilty because of Graendal's Compulsion.

Alanna Mosvani: Killed by Moridin via knife at Shayol Ghul in an attempt to induce the Warder Rage with Rand. Released the bond before she died.

Hurin: Fell fighting Shadowspawn at the FoM to by Lord Rand enough time to defeat the DO.

Arlen Naalam: Killed in the fighting in Androl's rescue attempt of Logain.

Evin Vinchova: Turned by the Dreadlords at the Black Tower. Androl uses his madness to make him lash out at the other Dreadlords. Killed by

Bulen: Killed on the Sheinarian battlefront hiding his wounds. Preserved in snow by Lan and Narishma to be retrieved as a Lord of Malkier.

Beldeine Nyram : Min's viewing fulfilled, she is killed by Sharans wielding black daggers.

Karldin Manfor: Dies with Beldeine.

Romanda Cassin: Killed doing what she does best. Ignoring orders. Killed by Sharan channelers when she tried to embrace the Source to escape the Kandori battlefront.

Deepe Bhadar: Killed by Dreadlords trying to take down M'Hael on the Shienarian battlefront.

Trom: Whitecloak officer, friend of Galad. Killed off-screen during the battle at Cairhien.

Berisha Terakuni: Injured by the bubble of evil at Tar Valon, then murdered by Aravine.

Alsalam Saeed Almadar: Slain at the Shayol Ghul battlefront off-screen.

Tenobia Kazadi: Killed off-screen fighting Shadowspawn on the Shienarian front. Graendal's Compulsion on Alegmar put her in a position to be killed.

Kiruna Nachiman: Killed by Graendal at Thakandar. Due to being in a Circle with Aviendha, could not fight back.

Faeldrin Harella: Killed by Graendal in the same circumstances as Kiruna.

Kwamesa Sedai: Killed by Demandred at the FoM battle.

Bertain Gallenne: Slain on the Andor/Cairhien battlefront.

Doesine Alwain: Killed by Sharan channelers at the FoM battle.

Jori Congar: Bled to death under a Trolloc at the FoM.

Enaila of the Chareen Aiel, Jarra Sept: Killed at the FoM by four Trollocs.

Sashalle Anderly: Compelled by Graendal and drained of strength. Presumably dead.

Vitalien: Sarene's Warder. Killed by Graendal when Sarene was taken as a "pet".

The Shadow:

Moridin: After the body-swap, Moridin is burned in Rand's body.

Demandred: Killed by Lan at the FoM.

Cyndane/Lanfear: Killed by Perrin after he overcomes her compulsion while she is about to kill Moriaine.

Mazrim Taim/ M'Hael: Killed by Egwene with the anti-balefire weave. Crystalized with Sarkanen.

Isam Mandragoran/ Luc Mantear/ Slayer: Killed by Perrin's hammer-blow with something to do with flickering.

David Hanlon: Killed by Birgitte after she returns as a Hero of the Horn while assaulting Elayne.

Aravine Carnel: Betrayed Faile and revealed as a Darkfriend. Killed by Faile while trying to take the Horn to Demandred.

Duhara Basaheen: Killed by Aviendha in the first assault on Thakandar, abandoned by Graendal.

Falion Bhoda: Killed by Aviendha, same as Duhara.

Jeaine Caide: Killed by Thomdil Merrilin trying to enter the Pit of Doom. (Four others had been killed like this, most likely the remaining Black Ajah we didn't hear from in the book. I'd say they were probably the ones left over from Moghedien's group.)

Other:

Padain Fain/Mordeth/Shaisam: Killed by Mat at Shayol Ghul, pierced in the heart by the Ruby Dagger.

Effectively dead, yet technically alive:

Graendal/Hessalam: Compulsion backfired when Aviendha un-wove her Gateway, reduced to a mindless adoring pet. May be able to be healed, however, it is unlikely that they would do so even if they could.

Sarene Nemdahl: Under Graendal's heavy Compulsion. Nynaeve may be able to heal it fully, however, she would most likely die or be a husk.

Kurin Mezar: Turned by Dreadlords at the Black Tower. Fate unknown. (May have died in the Black Tower when Androl opened the floor-gateway thing.)

Welyn Kajima: "Same as Mezar"

Donalo Sandomere: Turned by Dreadlords. Fought at the FoM. Captured with Mishraile and Aliviarin by the Ogier. The Turning may someday be able to be Healed, however, currently he is for all intents and purposes dead.

Ayako Norsoni: Bonded to Donalo, Turned. In the same situation as him.

Tarna Feir: Turned. Fate unknown.

Toveine Gazal: Turned, released from the Bond by Logain. Fate Unknown.

Egwene - dramatic and sad, but not horrific. Inspiring and she will be remembered a hero. Tragic loss for the future of the White Tower, but I believe she has sketched a foundation that will be meaninfgul.

Birgitte - doesn't count. It's even a good thing she died as it restored the rightful balance and her sense of self.

Gawyn - dumbass

Rhuarc - that one broke my heart, it did.

Siuan, Gareth, Davram, Diera - cared about the characters, but not one whit about their deaths.

Allana - big deal?

Hurin, Jori Congar - aw (but not for more than a moment)

Tenobia - fully expected and was a non-issue.

Bulen - now this one I cared about. This was written well. He was a very minor character, but his death and Lan's reaction impacted me. That it inspired the tradition of recounting how the fallen had died and kept the others strong to continue the fight. That's how they should be written.

17 more that I barely remember or just don't remember at all. This is just for the light. The names of others who are fate unknown I barely remember or care about either.

I vote not impactful. Like at all (with 3 exceptions - Egwene, Bulen, Rhuarc)

I'm sorry, but "heroic", "dumbass", "let to a good outcome", "wasn't shocking", "I don't care about the character", etc. are not arguments against the Last Battle having an impactful number of deaths among the primary and secondary characters. How does the fact that Egwene's death was meaningful and heroic take away from her death being impactful? She's the lead female protagonist of the series, and her death was completely shocking, and only foreshadowed in retrospect. Was the way it was written less than satisfactory? Yes. But that's a different argument.

I'm really not sure what the idea is with the death-toll = maturity side of this debate. On the other hand, I do think that the maturity of the story was impacted by one too many "fake deaths". We have Faile, Perrin, Mat, Lan, Aviendha, Galad, Moghedien, Rand... that's a ton. Way too many people "died", only to come back, and in many cases the comeback was absolutely unbelievable.

Faile: How are we to believe that after being chased by hundreds of Trollocs and being run down, she was not captured and eaten?

Lan: This was not just bad plotting wise, it lost a lot of thematic impact when Lan came back to life. Death is lighter than a feather. How do you really drive that home when the death was a cheap stunt that lasted for a few pages?

Aviendha: She did something that has extremely dangerous side-effects. The last time someone did that, there was a mini nuclear eruption. This time, the only impact is something that benefits Aviendha? She should have been burned out, at the very least, though that would have interfered with Rand, and the ending he got.

Galad: Again, this was an absurd save. How do you survive so long with those kinds of wounds? And in the chaos of battle, how did Annoura even find him?

All these things cheapened the end. Not that these characters lived, but how they avoided dying.

[Myrddin]

The list left off the most significant death: Bela.

Poor Bela....

:(

[fionwe1987]

The list left off the most significant death: Bela.

Poor Bela....

:(

Well, Bela had to go, for Egwene to follow. Brandon wanted to save her. :bang:

Thank god Harriet was there to insist otherwise.