A Memory of Light [FULL SPOILER DISCUSSION] Part 2

[Guy Kilmore]

OK, let's look

Death Toll:

The Light:

Egwene al'Vere: Died via overuse of the OP through a sa'angreal that lacked a buffer. Took out M'Hael and hundreds of Sharan Channelers in the process with her anti-balefire weave. This weave also partially restored the Pattern and possibly saved it from falling apart.

Birgitte Silverbow: Killed by Hanlon when he and his DF's attack Elayne. Comes back again as a Hero of the Horn, and kills Mellar and fights the rest of the LB alongside Elayne. Stays to see Rand's funeral and say goodbye to Elayne. She mentions she is being reborn as she fades away.

Gawyn Trakand: Killed by Demandred in a sword duel.

Rhuarc, Clan Chief of the Taarad Aiel, Nine Valleys Sept. Aethan Dor: Compelled by Graendal, killed by Aviendha when he attacks her.

Suian Sanche: Died saving Mat and Tuon from a burning tent, mirroring the story she told Mat in tDR.

Gareth Byrne: Killed while fighting Shadowspawn (presumably) in a suicidal charge because of the Warder Rage felt with Suian's death.

Davram and Diera Bashere: Killed by Shadowspawn at the FoM, fighting in the ordinary ranks, guilty because of Graendal's Compulsion.

Alanna Mosvani: Killed by Moridin via knife at Shayol Ghul in an attempt to induce the Warder Rage with Rand. Released the bond before she died.

Hurin: Fell fighting Shadowspawn at the FoM to by Lord Rand enough time to defeat the DO.

Arlen Naalam: Killed in the fighting in Androl's rescue attempt of Logain.

Evin Vinchova: Turned by the Dreadlords at the Black Tower. Androl uses his madness to make him lash out at the other Dreadlords. Killed by

Bulen: Killed on the Sheinarian battlefront hiding his wounds. Preserved in snow by Lan and Narishma to be retrieved as a Lord of Malkier.

Beldeine Nyram : Min's viewing fulfilled, she is killed by Sharans wielding black daggers.

Karldin Manfor: Dies with Beldeine.

Romanda Cassin: Killed doing what she does best. Ignoring orders. Killed by Sharan channelers when she tried to embrace the Source to escape the Kandori battlefront.

Deepe Bhadar: Killed by Dreadlords trying to take down M'Hael on the Shienarian battlefront.

Trom: Whitecloak officer, friend of Galad. Killed off-screen during the battle at Cairhien.

Berisha Terakuni: Injured by the bubble of evil at Tar Valon, then murdered by Aravine.

Alsalam Saeed Almadar: Slain at the Shayol Ghul battlefront off-screen.

Tenobia Kazadi: Killed off-screen fighting Shadowspawn on the Shienarian front. Graendal's Compulsion on Alegmar put her in a position to be killed.

Kiruna Nachiman: Killed by Graendal at Thakandar. Due to being in a Circle with Aviendha, could not fight back.

Faeldrin Harella: Killed by Graendal in the same circumstances as Kiruna.

Kwamesa Sedai: Killed by Demandred at the FoM battle.

Bertain Gallenne: Slain on the Andor/Cairhien battlefront.

Doesine Alwain: Killed by Sharan channelers at the FoM battle.

Jori Congar: Bled to death under a Trolloc at the FoM.

Enaila of the Chareen Aiel, Jarra Sept: Killed at the FoM by four Trollocs.

Sashalle Anderly: Compelled by Graendal and drained of strength. Presumably dead.

Vitalien: Sarene's Warder. Killed by Graendal when Sarene was taken as a "pet".

The Shadow:

Moridin: After the body-swap, Moridin is burned in Rand's body.

Demandred: Killed by Lan at the FoM.

Cyndane/Lanfear: Killed by Perrin after he overcomes her compulsion while she is about to kill Moriaine.

Mazrim Taim/ M'Hael: Killed by Egwene with the anti-balefire weave. Crystalized with Sarkanen.

Isam Mandragoran/ Luc Mantear/ Slayer: Killed by Perrin's hammer-blow with something to do with flickering.

David Hanlon: Killed by Birgitte after she returns as a Hero of the Horn while assaulting Elayne.

Aravine Carnel: Betrayed Faile and revealed as a Darkfriend. Killed by Faile while trying to take the Horn to Demandred.

Duhara Basaheen: Killed by Aviendha in the first assault on Thakandar, abandoned by Graendal.

Falion Bhoda: Killed by Aviendha, same as Duhara.

Jeaine Caide: Killed by Thomdil Merrilin trying to enter the Pit of Doom. (Four others had been killed like this, most likely the remaining Black Ajah we didn't hear from in the book. I'd say they were probably the ones left over from Moghedien's group.)

Other:

Padain Fain/Mordeth/Shaisam: Killed by Mat at Shayol Ghul, pierced in the heart by the Ruby Dagger.

Effectively dead, yet technically alive:

Graendal/Hessalam: Compulsion backfired when Aviendha un-wove her Gateway, reduced to a mindless adoring pet. May be able to be healed, however, it is unlikely that they would do so even if they could.

Sarene Nemdahl: Under Graendal's heavy Compulsion. Nynaeve may be able to heal it fully, however, she would most likely die or be a husk.

Kurin Mezar: Turned by Dreadlords at the Black Tower. Fate unknown. (May have died in the Black Tower when Androl opened the floor-gateway thing.)

Welyn Kajima: "Same as Mezar"

Donalo Sandomere: Turned by Dreadlords. Fought at the FoM. Captured with Mishraile and Aliviarin by the Ogier. The Turning may someday be able to be Healed, however, currently he is for all intents and purposes dead.

Ayako Norsoni: Bonded to Donalo, Turned. In the same situation as him.

Tarna Feir: Turned. Fate unknown.

Toveine Gazal: Turned, released from the Bond by Logain. Fate Unknown.

Egwene - dramatic and sad, but not horrific. Inspiring and she will be remembered a hero. Tragic loss for the future of the White Tower, but I believe she has sketched a foundation that will be meaninfgul.

Birgitte - doesn't count. It's even a good thing she died as it restored the rightful balance and her sense of self.

Gawyn - dumbass

Rhuarc - that one broke my heart, it did.

Siuan, Gareth, Davram, Diera - cared about the characters, but not one whit about their deaths.

Allana - big deal?

Hurin, Jori Congar - aw (but not for more than a moment)

Tenobia - fully expected and was a non-issue.

Bulen - now this one I cared about. This was written well. He was a very minor character, but his death and Lan's reaction impacted me. That it inspired the tradition of recounting how the fallen had died and kept the others strong to continue the fight. That's how they should be written.

17 more that I barely remember or just don't remember at all. This is just for the light. The names of others who are fate unknown I barely remember or care about either.

I vote not impactful. Like at all (with 3 exceptions - Egwene, Bulen, Rhuarc)

Bela: Killed by a Trolloc arrow while carrying an ungreatful Oliver with the horn of vallera to a place of "safety".

That one hit me, especially because Oliver disparaged her in his mind. I mean Scooby Doo died.

[Gertrude]

I'm sorry, but "heroic", "dumbass", "let to a good outcome", "wasn't shocking", "I don't care about the character", etc. are not arguments against the Last Battle having an impactful number of deaths among the primary and secondary characters.

This wasn't meant to really be an argument, just me being flippant. I did give Egwene her due as one of the impactful deaths. You yourself even said it was handled ... less than idealy? Brendan Moody summed up the whole death count v maturity argument better than I could, so consider that my official complaint.

I do agree with you about the 'fake' deaths bringing things down a bit. Add into that the unwillingness to break up couples.

[Reposado]

Add into that the unwillingness to break up couples.

certainly the most grating point for me.

Yes, that is part of the problem with the ending. Oh, all this people dies, oh well, let's move on.

as well as this. some 10,000 pages leading to a 600 page battle and just 10ish pages afterwards. this story needed more denouement, bad.

[Gertrude]

And I can't believe I didn't notice the list didn't have Bela on it! The most noble of horses! Fionwe already talked me down intellectually from wanting Bela to be a Hero of the Horn, but the heart wants what the heart wants ...

[Reposado]

I don't see why "number of major characters dead" matters.

in general, it doesn't but subjectively, this story needed some. not saying i know exactly how it should have been done. but what we got was lacking. and one thing i think would have made this finale tick, is more deaths among significant characters

And I can't believe I didn't notice the list didn't have Bela on it! The most noble of horses! Fionwe already talked me down intellectually from wanting Bela to be a Hero of the Horn, but the heart wants what the heart wants ...

bela did have quite a shelf life in this story. and what with every single horse that any pov character ever road for a chapter having a name, i wouldnt have been surprised if bela had been resurrected

[Shryke]

My theory always was that the Throne only works for at least a latent channeler. Wasn't it mentioned that the last Emperor was a madman?

Anyway, women spark much earlier than men, so they'd normally get collared/eliminated before inheriting, but men spark as late as 30, so there was a risk that a male heir could spark at the most innoportune moment.

Indeed. Nor were gateways tiring.

But RJ has spent books and books having Our Heroes sloowly assemble mundane troops and presented it as important for the Last Battle. Oh, and the clearly telegraphed supreme commander of TG has been agressively ignorant about channeling and what it can do throughout the series!

Ditto all the other military characters, while the Greens are all flighty, horny women who have no clue about military strategy, tactics or battles (sic!).

Not to mention that Mat has been developing and building cannons on completely ridiculous time-frame.

Yet at the same time, RJ had the attack on that manor in KoD, where a small group of channelers, without using angreal, easily destroyed 100K Trollocs.

IMHO, with such a set-up, military aspects of TG could have never made sense. I suspect that Jordan may have been better able to depict emotions of people fighting and their reactions to losses, but the battle itself was a lost cause, IMHO.

The problem is BS completely screws up the number of troops on both sides and the powers of the channelers.

When people ask "Why don't they do X with a gateway?" part of the issue here is BS radically expanded the uses of gateways.

[Shryke]

Lan: This was not just bad plotting wise, it lost a lot of thematic impact when Lan came back to life. Death is lighter than a feather. How do you really drive that home when the death was a cheap stunt that lasted for a few pages?

This is bullshit. Lan surviving is hugely thematically important. He is the indomitable will of humanity. The man who cannot be broken. Death is lighter then a feather means he accepts death to get the job done. It doesn't mean he has to die.

He's also the one guy you always thought would die cause, fuck, it ain't like he's been trying to live that hard.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Was I the only one who thought at first that Lan was bound to the Horn and that he's was alive the same way Birgitte was?

And no, the whole "indomitable will of humanity" is a bunch of bs. (no pun intended). The theme was about sacrifice, and Lan dying would have been a far better story.

[Shryke]

Was I the only one who thought at first that Lan was bound to the Horn and that he's was alive the same way Birgitte was?

And no, the whole "indomitable will of humanity" is a bunch of bs. (no pun intended). The theme was about sacrifice, and Lan dying would have been a far better story.

Uh, no. The entire end of Rand's fight with the DO is based on the fact that the DO can only win if he breaks humanity's spirit. And to this point, Rand points at Lan and goes "This man you have taken everything from. This man still fights." It's not even subtle. And it's got nothing to do with sacrifice.

[Reposado]

The problem is BS completely screws up the number of troops on both sides and the powers of the channelers.

When people ask "Why don't they do X with a gateway?" part of the issue here is BS radically expanded the uses of gateways.

and perhaps more importantly, the number of channelers. amol seemed like there were a few dozen wise ones, but at one point, weren't there over 1,000?

[fionwe1987]

This is bullshit. Lan surviving is hugely thematically important. He is the indomitable will of humanity. The man who cannot be broken. Death is lighter then a feather means he accepts death to get the job done. It doesn't mean he has to die.

So the indomitable will of humanity depends on surviving? Lan could have died and just as easily have represented the indomitable will of humanity. In fact, Egwene did just that:

It was about a woman who would not bend her back while she was beaten, and who shone with the Light for all who watched. Including Rand.

He's also the one guy you always thought would die cause, fuck, it ain't like he's been trying to live that hard.

And his death at that point would have meant nothing. Agelmar admonishes him for it, in fact. Dying because you have no hope, because of some misguided sense of duty... that kind of death is wrong. But Lan learned that. Nynaeve forced him to his destined duty, and he bore it with honor.

Lan's death, if it had happened at this point, would have been all the more tragic since it would have come after he embraced life. The true measure of his sacrifice was that he had many reasons to live, at this point.

I just felt that his death would have fit the theme very well. And it would have made Nynaeve's job all the more incredible. Imagine a scene where she's feverishly working on Alanna, to spare Rand the very pain she is feeling right then. And to help her deal with the pain is Moiraine, who has felt the exact same pain when her bond to Lan was snapped.

As it was, it still worked, but I felt that this was one moment when a character's death would have genuinely had a greater impact on the story than his unlooked-for survival.

[fionwe1987]

Uh, no. The entire end of Rand's fight with the DO is based on the fact that the DO can only win if he breaks humanity's spirit. And to this point, Rand points at Lan and goes "This man you have taken everything from. This man still fights." It's not even subtle. And it's got nothing to do with sacrifice.

It has everything to do with sacrifice. Lan had everything taken from him. It should have simply made him give up, and he did come close to doing that till Nynaeve forced his hand. This man who was stripped of everything, who had just begun to have hope, was not selfish enough to sit back and try to live. He went into a fight expecting to die, and used even that death to cut at the Shadow. That's the metaphor. His survival is the cherry on the cake, and a rotten one at that.

and perhaps more importantly, the number of channelers. amol seemed like there were a few dozen wise ones, but at one point, weren't there over 1,000?

Conservative estimates put the number of Wise Ones at 4000. There's likely more. Brandon either forgot about them, or was too lazy to write them into the story.

[Darth Richard]

Ok, there is my whole problem with this series in nutshell. I maybe remember who 4 or 5 of those people are. And I just read the last book less than a week ago.

[Shryke]

It has everything to do with sacrifice. Lan had everything taken from him. It should have simply made him give up, and he did come close to doing that till Nynaeve forced his hand. This man who was stripped of everything, who had just begun to have hope, was not selfish enough to sit back and try to live. He went into a fight expecting to die, and used even that death to cut at the Shadow. That's the metaphor. His survival is the cherry on the cake, and a rotten one at that.

No, his survival is the point. Because he's still fighting. I don't know how you can miss this when his survival in the face of all things, the fact that he is still fighting, is like literally the climax of the entire series. The DO cannot destroy them because they cannot be broken and holy shit, here's the guy who cannot be broken and the DO can't destroy him.

Him dying serves no purpose here and detracts from that moment. It would also have made him another Egwene and we've already got one.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

So only one person is allowed a heroic death? Because Egwene did it there is no point in any one else doing it?

No, it's not about survival of one person, it's about one person willing to sacrifice everything so that others may live. That's the "indomitable human spirit". Not that because I have this spirit I cannot die. It's about having this spirit collectively so that humanity survives because of individuals willing to make that sacrifice.

[Relic]

Lan should have died, imo. Would have left a pretty large emotional impact, something i found the book lacked.

[Cause]

No, his survival is the point. Because he's still fighting. I don't know how you can miss this when his survival in the face of all things, the fact that he is still fighting, is like literally the climax of the entire series. The DO cannot destroy them because they cannot be broken and holy shit, here's the guy who cannot be broken and the DO can't destroy him.

Him dying serves no purpose here and detracts from that moment. It would also have made him another Egwene and we've already got one.

Twice we have seen two characters (who are thematically linked) sheathe the sword and they both live. That's why its a mistake. It was about sacrifice but we are repeatedly shown if your willing to make the sacrifice you will be rewarded with more than you lose, and lose less than you thought you gave. That's not sacrifice, that's also not defiance or a determined will. Its weak storytelling. The only way he was able to kill Demandred (the greatest swordsman who ever lived) was to trade a killing blow for a killing blow but no we learn Demandred missed. He missed! Its one of the reasons I have not given up on the Rand nudged the pattern theory.

Never mind that I think the idea of Lan ridding at Demandred in a lone suicidal charge was a huge back step in regards to his charcater development in the past few books but even specifically in MoL. He finally embraces the idea that he is not one man alone, he is the king of Malkier. He is worth more alive as a leader than he is as one single swordsman. Besides if someone was going to attack the greatest swordsman who ever lived with a fox head medallion I also think that duty was strongly foreshadowed and set up to be Mat's. His Ashanderai fighting style we know kicks swordmasters asses and its his medallion.

A memory of light was all over the place. Im glad WoT got finished but this ending abandoned whole plots and prophecies. Ignored or reversed character growth and pulled Deus ex Machina out of its ass whenever needed, Look at the Egwene of KoD (who argued with Elaida how to treat the Dragon) with the Egwene of MoL who treats rand like a shepherd boy.

[Frey Pie]

Ok, there is my whole problem with this series in nutshell. I maybe remember who 4 or 5 of those people are. And I just read the last book less than a week ago.

Just saying.....i think this may be your problem, not the books

[Muttering Bill]

Never mind that I think the idea of Lan ridding at Demandred in a lone suicidal charge was a huge back step in regards to his charcater development in the past few books but even specifically in MoL. He finally embraces the idea that he is not one man alone, he is the king of Malkier. He is worth more alive as a leader than he is as one single swordsman. Besides if someone was going to attack the greatest swordsman who ever lived with a fox head medallion I also think that duty was strongly foreshadowed and set up to be Mat's. His Ashanderai fighting style we know kicks swordmasters asses and its his medallion.

After Gawyn and GaIad both lost to Demandred, I fully expected that Mat would be the one to take him out. A little nod to TDR. Plus Demandred spent most of the battle suspecting that Mat was Rand in diguise, and debating whether or not to challenge him. Who better to take on the greatest swordsman ever than a guy with the memories of a hundred or so regular great swordsmen?

And why give him the foxhead if not so he could take on at least one Forsaken? For the Golem? He didn't even use it for that final battle, except for waving it around a little.

[Gigei]

Because the book forgets virtually every non-major character. And even alot of the major ones and their relationships. Fuck, you can pretty much count on one hand the number of character we spend more time with then Androl, a character that didn't exist till Sanderson took over the series and isn't even that important.

The book is chalk full of pointless trolloc-fighting scenes and virtually devoid of character moments before the end.

True and RJ's own epilogue forgot about the kids, too.

Aws but it's ok I'm generally happy with most of the character endings. Before RJ died I had already abandoned all hope for the series (when the girls joined the circus and turned into raging bitches) and stopped reading (just skimmed most parts) after 1993. I picked it up again after it was confirmed that there would be a definite ending. 20 years after I gave up I got to read the ending.

Stopped caring about Rand, Perrin, Matt, Egwene, Elayne, etc. ages ago. At this point all I care about is that Lan is alive at the end! Yes! Bonus points for Moraine and Thom, too. Sweetness.

V. sad about Bela, though.

After Gawyn and GaIad both lost to Demandred, I fully expected that Mat would be the one to take him out.

Me, too.