A Memory of Light [FULL SPOILER DISCUSSION] Part 2

[awesome possum]

See, I can handle the explanation that there never was a Song and they had just misinterpreted what the Song was rather than the idea that they never meant an actual song and were talking about finding a philosophy. They already have a philosophy and are bound and determined to stick by it even when being brutally murdered, so the idea that they're purposely looking for a new philosophy is just, well, not a good idea.

[Brendan Moody]

I don't think anyone meant to suggest they were purposely looking for a new philosophy. What I was getting at was that, within the thematic context (such as it is) of the series, "seeking the Song" is a way of life that functions as its own literary end, rather than a mystery pointing toward a resolution. Jordan was saying something about spirituality, myth and memory, the nature of the search for truth. In other words, seeking the Song and the Way of the Leaf are both aspects of what the Tinkers are. All that sounds rather ponderous, but then the ideas underneath those 10,000 pages of sniffing and necklines are ponderous, even if the execution rarely highlighted them in any satisfying way.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Peter I get that you're not happy with the way things turned out, but the whole "Tinker Song" thing was essentially put to bed in TSR when Rand sees both the origins of the Tinkers AND the original "Song." It was pretty clear that they were just following a myth that grew out of what really happened.

In other news, while most of those answers were good, Sanderson did manage to eff up the timeline a bit - he says Taim wasn't a DF until after the Forsaken were free, yet he's been channeling for years and has Slowed. I don't know how much wiggle room there is with his timeline, but he would've had to be channeling longer than the year or two since the FS escaped. Otherwise he wouldn't be as strong as he was. And if he was a sparker (assumed but not stated in the books) who appeared to be in his mid-thirties, he could have been 100.

[peterbound]

I don't think anyone meant to suggest they were purposely looking for a new philosophy. What I was getting at was that, within the thematic context (such as it is) of the series, "seeking the Song" is a way of life that functions as its own literary end, rather than a mystery pointing toward a resolution. Jordan was saying something about spirituality, myth and memory, the nature of the search for truth. In other words, seeking the Song and the Way of the Leaf are both aspects of what the Tinkers are. All that sounds rather ponderous, but then the ideas underneath those 10,000 pages of sniffing and necklines are ponderous, even if the execution rarely highlighted them in any satisfying way.

It's not ponderous. It's a failed attempt to seem deep. You hit the nail on the head, the execution was poor. He wasn't breaking any new ground here, and he did it poorly.

[Frey Pie]

Peter I get that you're not happy with the way things turned out, but the whole "Tinker Song" thing was essentially put to bed in TSR when Rand sees both the origins of the Tinkers AND the original "Song." It was pretty clear that they were just following a myth that grew out of what really happened.

In other news, while most of those answers were good, Sanderson did manage to eff up the timeline a bit - he says Taim wasn't a DF until after the Forsaken were free, yet he's been channeling for years and has Slowed. I don't know how much wiggle room there is with his timeline, but he would've had to be channeling longer than the year or two since the FS escaped. Otherwise he wouldn't be as strong as he was. And if he was a sparker (assumed but not stated in the books) who appeared to be in his mid-thirties, he could have been 100.

The time it takes for a person to succomb to madness is not known though is it? Does it happen sooner the stronger you are or vice versa? Is it just a lottery? How long was Logain channeling? Theres also the mysterious way Taim and his cronies appeared to level up quicker then those around them.

[fionwe1987]

Peter I get that you're not happy with the way things turned out, but the whole "Tinker Song" thing was essentially put to bed in TSR when Rand sees both the origins of the Tinkers AND the original "Song." It was pretty clear that they were just following a myth that grew out of what really happened.

In other news, while most of those answers were good, Sanderson did manage to eff up the timeline a bit - he says Taim wasn't a DF until after the Forsaken were free, yet he's been channeling for years and has Slowed. I don't know how much wiggle room there is with his timeline, but he would've had to be channeling longer than the year or two since the FS escaped. Otherwise he wouldn't be as strong as he was. And if he was a sparker (assumed but not stated in the books) who appeared to be in his mid-thirties, he could have been 100.

He appears older because he had been through a tough time, running from Saldaea to Andor as a fugitive. Also, men can begin channeling as late as 30, and since slowing takes time, he wouldn't start looking younger right away.

[Brendan Moody]

It's not ponderous. It's a failed attempt to seem deep.

Most failed attempts to sound deep are ponderous.

Taim was confirmed by Jordan to be a sparker, and had been channeling for many years by the time he became a false Dragon, so I would assume he was already a channeler when he became a Darkfriend.

[Muttering Bill]

In other news, while most of those answers were good, Sanderson did manage to eff up the timeline a bit - he says Taim wasn't a DF until after the Forsaken were free, yet he's been channeling for years and has Slowed. I don't know how much wiggle room there is with his timeline, but he would've had to be channeling longer than the year or two since the FS escaped. Otherwise he wouldn't be as strong as he was. And if he was a sparker (assumed but not stated in the books) who appeared to be in his mid-thirties, he could have been 100.

I don't have exact quotes, and can't reference page numbers, but I'm pretty sure that it was explained in LoC. When Rand first meets Taim, he says how he's been channeling for something like 10 or 20 years. And that the reason he declared himself DR was because he'd been channeling so long without going insane.

[Frey Pie]

I don't have exact quotes, and can't reference page numbers, but I'm pretty sure that it was explained in LoC. When Rand first meets Taim, he says how he's been channeling for something like 10 or 20 years. And that the reason he declared himself DR was because he'd been channeling so long without going insane.

Perhaps the DO had him singled out as a possible recruit? He hardly turned bad in a day. Unless that is his madness

[Muttering Bill]

Possibly. I had assumed from the start that he was a new Forsaken (or Dreadlord at least) and had one of those anti-taint black cables to protect him. I also thought that Ishamael had found and taught him. So apparently I was wrong on a few levels.

At least I never thought he was Demandred.

[David Selig]

Male channellers who have the spark sometimes don't start channelling until they are 30, Taim may have been one of those late bloomers, so to speak.

[Brendan Moody]

Jordan said that Taim was in his late twenties in the series, and by that point he's been channeling for quite a few years. So he wouldn't have started at a much later age than Rand did.

[Maia]

Its the act of singing by someone who has the Voice. From the looks of it, in the AoL, only the Aiel had the Voice.

Not true. Mad LTT asked Ishamael in the prologue to TEoTW whether he had the Voice and he, obviously, also had it himself.

It may have been more wide-spread among the Aiel, but other AoLites had it too.

Personally, I don't understand why Rand didn't try to teach Singing to somebody - Aiel, Tinkers, whoever, given that they are staring at a massive famine which is going to kill a lot of people even in such a breadbasket as Tear, per Min's viewing!

Nym were living ter'angreal, so if Rand bothered to explain to somebody how they worked, the channelers might have figured out how to substitute for them, too.

He appears older because he had been through a tough time, running from Saldaea to Andor as a fugitive.

Mm... I don't see how this could fit with Demandred recruiting and training him. When could he have done so if Taim was really on the run during all that time? Maybe Taim's initial look was due to Demandred's intensive and rough training?

But yea, I also thought that Taim and his initial group of favorites were all students of Ishamael. And frankly, given those Aiel channelers in the Blight, it doesn't make sense to me that this wasn't the case.

The time it takes for a person to succomb to madness is not known though is it? Does it happen sooner the stronger you are or vice versa? Is it just a lottery?

One of the worst aspects of the taint. There was absolutely no way to predict when somebody would go around the bend. Length of channeling, amount of channeling, etc. gave no clue. They could be fine one minute and then go completely bonkers in the next. See Fedwin Morr.

[NewJeffCT]

Gave up on this series around book 8 or so, then saw that Jordan had passed away, then saw that Sanderson picked up the finale. So, now that the series is finally finished, I decided to do a full read through from the beginning. I figure it will be my major reading project before Winds of Winter comes out, since I'm sure I've forgotten a lot of the details of the 8 books I had read.

I started this series before AGOT came out several years later, and am now halfway through The Eye of the World. Amazing how much simpler the characters seem after reading A Song of Ice & Fire three times.

[Rhom]

Gave up on this series around book 8 or so, then saw that Jordan had passed away, then saw that Sanderson picked up the finale. So, now that the series is finally finished, I decided to do a full read through from the beginning. I figure it will be my major reading project before Winds of Winter comes out, since I'm sure I've forgotten a lot of the details of the 8 books I had read.

I started this series before AGOT came out several years later, and am now halfway through The Eye of the World. Amazing how much simpler the characters seem after reading A Song of Ice & Fire three times.

Hope you have a few more reading projects planned out after this one... I figure we've got a ways to go yet on TWoW!

[Shryke]

Finally finished going through the threads and something struck me that no one talked about:

Rand's comment that the DO can only win by breaking the will of humanity. And that this explains his apparent inconsistency in not just murdering them all. I thought that was quite the interesting addition.

I found it especially odd since another big thing people kept mentioning (Lan not dying) is tied directly in to this idea.

Why does Lan live? Because he represents this idea that humanity will not break and the DO cannot win. As Rand himself points out, the DO has taken everything from him and he keeps going. He still lives and still fights.

PS - Demandred => Shara. :P

[NewJeffCT]

Hope you have a few more reading projects planned out after this one... I figure we've got a ways to go yet on TWoW!

With the way I've been getting through books since my daughter was born almost 10 years ago, I am guessing that it will take me at least six months to get through the entire series, if not more, if I read 2 books per month. I'll certainly do more reading after that, but I doubt I'll commit that much time to any one series until we get more info on Winds of Winter. (Then, I'll probably re-read Ice & Fire again from the beginning...)

It's already been 18 months since Dance with Dragons was released in July of 2011, and it will have been two and a half years by the end of this year. Hopefully, we can have an idea by the end of this year (not expecting a release date, but at least a positive note on the progress)

[Shryke]

Also, Padain Fain is by far the most disappointing thing in the book. He goes nowhere and does nothing.

I'd accept him as a remnant of Shadar Logoth (itself required to clean the Taint) that just needed to be swept up, but some interviews and such with RJ hinted he was more then that. Some sort of unique thing.

Speaking of Taints, I enjoyed the implication that the Taint was necessary so that Rand would have LTT's memories.

[Rhom]

Also, Padain Fain is by far the most disappointing thing in the book. He goes nowhere and does nothing.

I'd accept him as a remnant of Shadar Logoth (itself required to clean the Taint) that just needed to be swept up, but some interviews and such with RJ hinted he was more then that. Some sort of unique thing.

Speaking of Taints, I enjoyed the implication that the Taint was necessary so that Rand would have LTT's memories.

Any sentence that begins "Speaking of Taints..." has the potential to be very disturbing! :P

That said, I found it interesting in the interview that Fain is apparently unique to this turning of the wheel. If that is the case, is Mashadar also unique? And if so, how has the taint been cleansed in other turnings???

[Frey Pie]

Finally finished going through the threads and something struck me that no one talked about:

Rand's comment that the DO can only win by breaking the will of humanity. And that this explains his apparent inconsistency in not just murdering them all. I thought that was quite the interesting addition.

I found it especially odd since another big thing people kept mentioning (Lan not dying) is tied directly in to this idea.

Why does Lan live? Because he represents this idea that humanity will not break and the DO cannot win. As Rand himself points out, the DO has taken everything from him and he keeps going. He still lives and still fights.

PS - Demandred => Shara. :P

Was he dead and brought back to life by Rand do you think? Or did Rand bend the pattern to allow him life? Lans hugely symbolic to the gathered armies, far more so then i would say any other character, even its HC Elayne