A Memory of Light [FULL SPOILER DISCUSSION] Part 2

[Vegan Rob]

Personally, I thought that Demandred was in Shara after one of the other Forsaken said something about the clever positioning of the triumvirate of Mesaana - Demandred - Semiraghe. It just made sense considering where the 2 women were

Now we see what the plan was - control all the world's channellers for the DO. Semirhage brings the damane, Mesaana brings the Aes Sedai, Demandred brings the Ayyad and, through Taim, the Asha'man. I suppose after they won they'd shred each other until only one was left. Might've worked, too.

[Poobah]

My problem with Shara is always that we get the one off line from Greandal being all "lol Shara's descended into total chaos 'cause I kidnapped their rulers, I rock" thing and that seems to pretty mush settle Shara doing anything, along with specifically failing to mention anything prophetic or demandredy going on in that area. It seems like Greandal dealt with Shara in one fel swoop and that'll be the end of it.

[fionwe1987]

My problem with Shara is always that we get the one off line from Greandal being all "lol Shara's descended into total chaos 'cause I kidnapped their rulers, I rock" thing and that seems to pretty mush settle Shara doing anything, along with specifically failing to mention anything prophetic or demandredy going on in that area. It seems like Greandal dealt with Shara in one fel swoop and that'll be the end of it.

This was clearly meant to be misdirection. And its likely that the "multiple factions warring" scenario that Graendal created is exactly what allowed Demandred to collect a few factions and make his army.

Incidentally, I found the strongest proof that Demandred was in Shara. Both the following quotes are from Winter's Heart, which is also the book where RJ gave us clear evidence Demandred was not Taim:

“Forthcoming?” Min said, sounding suspicious. Of all his motives, he hoped, or anything but the truth. The dizziness and nausea faded slowly. “You have been as open as a mussel, Rand, but I am not blind. First we Traveled to Rhuidean, where you asked so many questions about this Shara place that anyone would think you meant to go there.”

Then, we get a Demandred PoV a ways down:

"Where is he?" Demandred growled, clenching his fists behind his back. Standing with his feet apart, he was aware that he dominated the room. He always did. Even so, he wished Semirhage or Mesaana were present. Their alliance was delicate—a simple agreement that they would not turn on one another until the others had been eliminated—yet it had held all this time. Working together, they had unbalanced opponent after opponent, toppling many to their deaths or worse. But it was difficult for Semirhage to attend these meetings, and Mesaana had been shy, of late. If she was thinking of ending the alliance. . . . "Al'Thor has been seen in five cities, including that cursed place in the Waste, and a dozen towns since those blind fools—those idiots!— failed in Cairhien. And that only includes the reports we have! The Great Lord only knows what else is crawling toward us by horse, or sheep, or whatever else these savages can find to carry a message."

Demandred is clearly worried and nervous here. He has intelligence about Rand, and what piece of it worries him most? Which report is important enough for him to mention it? Rand in Rhuidean! Rand in the place where Rand clearly gave the impression that he soon mean to go to Shara, Demandred's lair.

Its not really conclusive by itself, and I really think Brandon could have used the two extra books he decided to write to clue us in a little. But looking back, this is pretty strong evidence, I think.

[WilliamofToms]

Might've worked, too.

If it wasn't for those darn two rivers kids and their horse Bella too.

[Werthead]

Re: Bao the Wyld, Sanderson said in torchat that it was a play on Beowulf. Hence the Dragonslayer. IMHO, Shara was one of the territories that was occupied by the Shadow during the War of Power and they were following a Dark prophecy.

Shara did not exist during the War of the Shadow. None of the modern nations or lands did (unless the Land of the Madmen = Australia theory is correct).

[Daeric]

Didn't the land of the madmen come about due to the breaking. It was part of a larger land mass which got messed up royally and the surviving inhabitants went bonkers.

[jagilki]

I kind assumed that the Land of the Madmen was where Demandred was. I thought maybe it was just a land where Male Channelers were left unchecked.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Re: Androl and Jain - I believe somewhere in AMOL that Androl mentions Jain by name. I will try to look it up but don't know if I can find it in 907 pages, since it was just one throwaway line. Should've written it down when I saw it...

I would've been pissed if he had been in the Land of the Madmen. I don't think it was mentioned at all in the main series - we know of it only from the world map in the World Book IIRC.

[Darke]

Re: Androl and Jain - I believe somewhere in AMOL that Androl mentions Jain by name. I will try to look it up but don't know if I can find it in 907 pages, since it was just one throwaway line. Should've written it down when I saw it...

I would've been pissed if he had been in the Land of the Madmen. I don't think it was mentioned at all in the main series - we know of it only from the world map in the World Book IIRC.

Actually it's implied in A Memory of Light that Perrin briefly jumps to the Land of Madmen in the Wolf Dream. During one of his pursuits of Slayer he jumps to a land he doesn't recognize at all and the wolves there don't believe that a human could be a Wolfbrother and flee him. He remarks how unusual this is, since wolves have long memories. Then he jumps away.

[cseresz.reborn]

Not even Brandon knows what’s going with Rand’s pipe-lighting at the end of A Memory of Light. “I put it in as RJ instructed, and I know nothing more about it than fandom does, I’m afraid.”

Rand + Moridin = Tom Bombadil

[Maia]

Shara did not exist during the War of the Shadow.

Never meant to imply that it did. What I wanted to say was that the territories that are now Shara and Seanchan were most likely occupied by forces of the Shadow during the War of Power and this influenced development of their societies in the Third Age.

I.e. Seanchan system of competition onto death, extensive secret police and informer network, assassination being an acceptable means of it and Raven as an emblem fits to a T what we have seen of the Darkfriend organization. Add to that a Compulsion ter'angreal in the form of the Crystal Throne and the implication is fairly clear, IMHO. Luthair's forces were largely culturally absorbed, except for the fact that they brought the Prophecies of the Dragon with them.

Shara didn't even have that, so they were following a Dark Prophecy about a Dragonslayer that woud save them from a new Breaking.

It never made sense to me that the Forsaken didn't go recruit from Land of Madmen, which had unconstrained channelers of both sexes that would have had no cultural conditioning to overcome when joining the Shadow.

But then, even already introduced channelers were side-lined in AMoL to give the mundanes a chance to shine, so...

[The Warlock of Qarth]

It never made sense to me that the Forsaken didn't go recruit from Land of Madmen, which had unconstrained channelers of both sexes that would have had no cultural conditioning to overcome when joining the Shadow.

But then, even already introduced channelers were side-lined in AMoL to give the mundanes a chance to shine, so...

I reckon it simply wasn't worth the effort. According to the World Book the Land of Madmen never fully recovered from the Breaking and it's society was fairly primitive and fractured. Contrast this with the situation in Seanchan, Randland and Shara in which very clear powerstructures (both channeler and non-channeler) were present for the Forsaken to infiltrate, especially so in Shara and Seanchan, which were unified empires. Combined with the fact that the vast majority of male channelers in the Land of Madmen were batshit crazy from the Taint and the female channelers weren't that far behind, and it becomes quite understandable why the Forsaken didn't bother with the Land of Madmen. A bunch of mad male channelers (though destructive) aren't much use on the battlefield compared to trained Aes Sedai, Asha'man, Ayyad, Damane and the like, and could turn against the Shadow's armies just as easily (being mad and all that).

[naz]

Now we see what the plan was - control all the world's channellers for the DO. Semirhage brings the damane, Mesaana brings the Aes Sedai, Demandred brings the Ayyad and, through Taim, the Asha'man. I suppose after they won they'd shred each other until only one was left. Might've worked, too.

...if it weren't for those meddling kids. :)

Just finished it yesterday and have spent the last day or so reading through these two threads. I won't add a lot since much has already been said except for:

- I'm satisfied with the book and the ending, and I share Balefont's sense of loss. I always feel this way at the end of a good series of books, tv shows, movies, etc. It's a bittersweet feeling; you want it to end so you can get a resolution, but you also want it to keep going. I'm pretty happy with where it stands and while I kind of wish the epilogue were longer, I think my imagination can fill out the rest.

- My only real problems were some of the anachronistic terms, like "telegraphing", for example (as in, telegraphing one's intentions) and I even seem to remember BS using "press-ganged" which is way inappropriate, to me.

- Re: the Rand resurrecting Lan argument. I'm with Shryke on this one. Sorry, Blu-ray, but I don't think it can be interpreted either way at all. To interpret it is a possible Rand-induced resurrection kills the whole point that Rand is trying to make.

- I find great amusement in imagining that Mat would be insanely jealous to find out that Rand gets to walk away from it all and wander the land incognito. This seems so much like a Mat thing. I almost wish that all three of them (including Perrin) could've gotten "killed" and they wander around having adventures together. I guess Faile would have to have died for that to happen, but who'd complain about that, really? (Just kidding... I'm not a huge Faile-hater. I kind of like her.)

- Favorite moments: Lan/Demandred, Egwene's death (sniff), Mat/Rand's running tally of Awesome Deeds, Olver cowering in the cracks and deciding to blow the Horn himself, and Thom's easy dispatching of 5 BAs while sitting on the DO's porch puttin' a ditty together.

[Darth Richard]

On page 600, I just decided to read the damn spoilers. My god the middle of this one draaaaaaaaaags.

Nothing substantial to add. Still not sure who the fuck the Sharans are. Feel like I skipped a book somewhere....

[Shryke]

- My only real problems were some of the anachronistic terms, like "telegraphing", for example (as in, telegraphing one's intentions) and I even seem to remember BS using "press-ganged" which is way inappropriate, to me.

Sanderson couldn't be not-anachronistic to save his whole family's life.

[naz]

Sanderson couldn't be not-anachronistic to save his whole family's life.

I've never read any of his other books, so I don't know. I didn't notice it so much in tGS or ToM.

[Shryke]

I've never read any of his other books, so I don't know. I didn't notice it so much in tGS or ToM.

It's all over the place in TGS and TOM. It's my #1 complaint with his handling of the series (tied with not getting Mat at all)

[Caligula_K2]

It's all over the place in TGS and TOM. It's my #1 complaint with his handling of the series (tied with not getting Mat at all)

But not a single character was spanked in all three of his books. Doesn't that count for something?

[fionwe1987]

But not a single character was spanked in all three of his books. Doesn't that count for something?

Semirhage was. As was Egwene, multiple times. What have you been reading?

[Slurktan]

Never meant to imply that it did. What I wanted to say was that the territories that are now Shara and Seanchan were most likely occupied by forces of the Shadow during the War of Power and this influenced development of their societies in the Third Age.

I.e. Seanchan system of competition onto death, extensive secret police and informer network, assassination being an acceptable means of it and Raven as an emblem fits to a T what we have seen of the Darkfriend organization. Add to that a Compulsion ter'angreal in the form of the Crystal Throne and the implication is fairly clear, IMHO. Luthair's forces were largely culturally absorbed, except for the fact that they brought the Prophecies of the Dragon with them.

I'm curious as to where you got the idea that Luthairs forces were culturally absorbed given that all the evidence is that the Seanchan "system" as it were came around due to Luthair and his descendants playing other forces off each other until they could be absorbed in the system set by Hawkwing's heirs. The exception is the damane but given how Ishmael had already poisoned Hawkwing (and likely his kids) into hating channelers this wasn't a big step culture-wise, more of a natural extension. One could argue that Ishamael created the Seanchan system through his contamination of Hawkwing I think but not that the system was subverted by native forces in the continent itself.