Prince Lewyn's Paramour

[Clariana]

Yay someone started a thread on this!

I was speculating it could be Olenna, I've read several other contributions saying the paramour must have been bastard born... Why?

I think the little that we know goes against this. What do we know, not very much... But we do know that important people seemed to respect the relationship, ie they don't seem to speak ill of the lovers concerned, perhaps because there was some commitment there and they helped keep it hush-hush, why would a bastard's standing mean it needed to be kept secret?

A Martell/Tyrell relationship would require this kind of confidentiality because of the know enimity between the families, if both partners were noble-born likewise...

[GreenHand]

Dornish & Bastardy & Sidelines Consideration

I think the paramour would be bastard born.

Not necessarily bastard born like Ellaria Sand, but not somebody who would draw so much attention

would have to be someone dornish

Very likely. His paramour could also be from Dorne. Perhaps one of the ladies in waiting of Elia. I wouldn't be surprise if the identity is revealed when the Sand Snakes arrive at KL.

Well, many Nobles North of the Red Mountains have strayed even in their marriages. Though in Dorne it is perhaps just a little more accepted to have a Paramour. Though, on the other hand, if a noble woman has real power (eg. as a ruling widow), then perhaps she can get away with it. Cersei (almost/a long time), Daenerys, Asha and subtly by rumour Genna Lannister largely get away with having paramours. No-one is in a position to challenge them even if they suspect. So maybe Lewyn's paramour was a prominent noble.

Lewyn was very high-born himself and no doubt consorted with high-born before he took the White. But it is he who has his honour on the line, not her as much. He is of the Kingsguard. But it was a secret love, so a moot point.

The King's Landing Criteria!

I'd like to form some theory that it is someone of Elia's entourage, Ashara Dayne, or Septa Lemore,..

I agree that One of Elia's entourage, or lady at court is the most likely. Although Rhaegar travelled much, Aerys stayed put so I am not sure if the Kingsguard left King's Landing often. It is more likely that his paramour came to him in King's Landing. Therefore, either someone in King's landing or a noble with the means and pretext to regularly visit King's Landing. Nobles from across the realm will often spend time in at court in King's Landing, petitioning, politicking or fulfilling some higher office (usually reserved for nobles). That the paramour, as a women, survived Lannister sacking of King's Landing (to an old age) tips the balance slightly to suggest that she was away from KL, i.e. not rooted & home in KL.

Disparate Candidates...

Anya Wainwood or Genna Lannister.

I think Prince Lewyn's paramour could have been ... Delonne Allyrion, Lady of Godsgrace.

Genna is the right generation and we have heard hints that she had a paramour. But did she not spend her time chiefly at The Rock or The Twins?

Well Anya Waynwood has the power and nobility, she has long been a widow... but nothing more to go on.

Delonne Allyrion, maybe... but only because she fits the older widow criterion...

Doesn't Olenna dislike the Targaryens as well? She claims that in her youth she was to marry a Targaryen but she changed her mind. I suspect that it is possible that a Targaryen rejected her. But I don't think that it could be Olenna.

Olenna seems to have little time for traditional proprietaries and honours. So perhaps... She is suited intrigues of keeping a secret affair. maybe...

My Pick!

I think Prince Lewyn's paramour could have been Arwyn Oakheart.

Now this one I like!

It has more than a vague character match and mere placement in the same generation. She fulfulls the criteria of an older woman long widowed. She is not just noble, but noble with political power in hand. She may well have travelled to King's Landing often leaving her lands in the hands of a castellan. We see that she travels in person with her army when they march for Renly, despite being a women and non-warrior.

Dornish-Oakheart Ancestral Conflict

What complicates it is that the Reach (including the Oakhearts) have killing and bitterly feuding Dornishmen for countless generations. Arys comments on this. Although their seat, Old Oak, is on the absolute far side of the Reach away from the Dornish border. Perhaps the Ancestral Oakhearts killed as many Westermen as the (many) Dornishmen.

Arys in the Kingsguard on a cultivated Romance with its Chivalry

However, what we do have is Arys. He is idealistic and has many romantic chivalries in his head which no doubt lead him to the Kingsguard. But it begs the question of whether he was inspired by a family friend he used to know, or his own mothers regard and respect for the Kingsguard. It is not unlikely that Lewyn's paramour found his Kingsguard aura and romance appealing. It's part of his thing (what is more romantic than a knight in shining armour...? A White Knight of the chosen-few Kingsguard in shining armour). So perhaps this nudges Lady Arwyn slightly ahead of the others.

Arys knows things

We gather that Lewyn's paramour was more or less secret. His sworn brothers knew, but they were bound brothers in trust and duty. I understand that Lewyn's own family knew. But how did Arys know? He did not contest Arianne's assertion about Lewyn. And he takes the honour of the Kingsguard seriously.He only joined the Kingsguard under King Robert, after Lewyn's death. Would Barristan or Jaime have mentioned it to their new brothers? it's not something they would have wished to encourage in the hot-blooded youths that were their new recruits. I do not think it is written in the White Book either, or Jaime would sure have noted it as his contemplations continue to return to his son and Cersei.

To play devil's advocate... If Arys modelled his image of a Kingsguard knight on his mother's friend, Lewyn, and he knew about the intimacy... Then why did he feel so ashamed about his trysts with Arianne? He never thought, but Lewyn did it... But this may be because he grew up with Lewyn around and didn't know the full extent. Or because, though he admired Lewyn, he intended to be a better knight - vows are vows.

[Clariana]

So one of the theories is that it was Ser Arys's own mother who was Prince Lewyn's paramour?

Me like :drool:

Naughty, naughty Arianne...

[Full-Faced Braavosi]

Good write-up and thoughts GreenHand.

I'll just note in regards to your last paragraphs that Arys definitely did not know of Prince Lewyn's paramour (and thus, if true, the intimacy between him and Arwyn) and it was not recorded in the White Book - he tells us both in his immediate reaction to the news.

[Barbrey]

Any chance of it being Wylla?

[dreamprfct]

Could she perhaps be Septa Lemore? It's a thought I've had for a while. We don't know exactly how old she is, but I got the impression she was late 30's/early 40's which could be considered "old" by Arianne's standards and would put her in twenties during Robert's Rebellion.

this is what I thought too when i read this thread!

[Full-Faced Braavosi]

My only problem with someone like Septa Lemore is that it doesn't leave much time for the Parmour-ing. If we say Lemore is 42, then she would've been 25 at Lewyn's death. Now, it's well apparent that young ladies are betrothed and even wedded when they are very young in Westeros, but I find it a bid hard to imagine being a paramour to an older gent when you are 14 or so. So I'd maybe give them 6-8 years together, which I suppose is possible. In addition, it would mean that Arianne knows Lemore (who Lemore truly is) which would essentially necessitate some greater theory of Doran + Aegon.

[PrimeRhaegar]

hmmm wouldn't surprise me if she was a hand maid for either queen rhaella or princess elia since she would have to be pretty close for them to have their night together. I'm glad that it was a well kept secret wi wonder if the white bull knew since he was the epitome of the KG keeping their vows.

[not in the face]

Probably just some random prostitute in KL. It's less likely for somebody to find out and Lewyn felt no shame in keeping a paramour so it really did not have to be anyone too noble.

[Roadside Rose]

I have been wondering if the paramour was Olenna.

[Kuther2000]

I have been wondering if the paramour was Olenna.

Doubt it. We have the Reach's animosity to Dorne and didn't Olenna call Ellaria during her stay at King's Landing a Dornish whore.

[Hippocras]

I think Lewyn's paramour was Queen Rhaella herself.

We know that Rhaella was in love with a knight before being forced to marry Aerys. Lewyn could easily have joined the Kingsguard to be near her.

This would also clarify why the paramour was even mentioned: if she was Rhaella it would call into question Daenerys's paternity.

But... Jamie seemed to think she loved Bonifer Hasty... so that is a bit of a hole. Not sure why he thinks this though.

[harf2]

Magi the frog, because, why not?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I think Lewyn's paramour was Queen Rhaella herself.

We know that Rhaella was in love with a knight before being forced to marry Aerys. Lewyn could easily have joined the Kingsguard to be near her.

This would also clarify why the paramour was even mentioned: if she was Rhaella it would call into question Daenerys's paternity.

But... Jamie seemed to think she loved Bonifer Hasty... so that is a bit of a hole. Not sure why he thinks this though.

In which case the line about her still being alive is a cover?

Not sure that would work. If his brother KGs knew he had a paramour and even suspected it was the queen they would have turned him in. The only reason Jamie was never suspected is because he was the queen's brother and apparently none of the KG have a sick enough mind to imagine incest could be going on.

I thought of Lady Stokeworth. Going to have to look up which families are in or near KL. This is a fun one.

[Hippocras]

There was no actual line about her still being alive I don't think? That was just someone on this thread's interpretation. What was actually said was that she was beautiful when she was young. Rhaella was beautiful when she was young, but then was forced to marry her paranoid, delusional and weak brother who raped her whenever he got horny from burning people. I can imagine that depth of sadness would take its toll on someone's beauty.

As for the Kingsguard - They were protecting Lewyn's secret of having a lover, but there is no proof so far that they knew who it was. It could be like Tyrion's situation, where he was pretending to meet someone then actually sneaking off and meeting someone else. Tyrion does give us precedent with Shae.

Even if the Kingsguard DID know it was Rhaella, or suspect - given that they had to stand around outside the door when Aerys raped her and knew that she lived in constant misery, is it so unlikely that they might have protected her secret, which would have been her only source of happiness?

My guess is they did not know who the lover was or were mislead, but if one or two of them did know the secret may still have been kept from sympathy.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

There was no actual line about her still being alive I don't think? That was just someone on this thread's interpretation.

Arianne said

“A great knight with a paramour. She is an old woman now, but she was a rare beauty in her youth, men say.”

Full quote in the OP ;)

[lareine]

There was no actual line about her still being alive I don't think? That was just someone on this thread's interpretation. What was actually said was that she was beautiful when she was young. Rhaella was beautiful when she was young, but then was forced to marry her paranoid, delusional and weak brother who raped her whenever he got horny from burning people. I can imagine that depth of sadness would take its toll on someone's beauty.

As for the Kingsguard - They were protecting Lewyn's secret of having a lover, but there is no proof so far that they knew who it was. It could be like Tyrion's situation, where he was pretending to meet someone then actually sneaking off and meeting someone else. Tyrion does give us precedent with Shae.

Even if the Kingsguard DID know it was Rhaella, or suspect - given that they had to stand around outside the door when Aerys raped her and knew that she lived in constant misery, is it so unlikely that they might have protected her secret, which would have been her only source of happiness?

My guess is they did not know who the lover was or were mislead, but if one or two of them did know the secret may still have been kept from sympathy.

I have to admit, this thought actually crossed my mind too when Alia & I were working on our thread about Rhaella a few weeks ago. Of course I have no solid proof, but I think what triggered the thought was the way in which there seemed to be an air of ambiguity and secrecy associated with any mention of Lewyn's paramour.

Barristan seems to be aware that Lewyn had a paramour, but doesn't seem to know who it was or if he does, he's not volunteering the information. Arys recalls that the 'deceits' of Terrence Toyne and Lucamore the lusty were recorded in the white book, but not a word about Lewyn Martell even having a paramour is mentioned. It made me think that there was some danger associated with the affair beyond just a Kingsguard breaking his vows with a high lord's daughter or wife.

Who would be more dangerous to have an affair with than the queen herself, who we also know had a fondness for knights? In addition to having access to her as a Kingsguard, Lewyn's sister (Elia & Doran's mother) had also been one of Rhaella's ladies-in-waiting. They may have known each other through her too, possibly even before Rhaella was married.

I'll admit, I'd forgotten about that passage from Arianne's POV where she seems toknow who the woman is and hints that she's still alive. If that's true, than it definitely puts the kibosh on this theory. Though Arianne most likely would have heard the story from her father and as we know, Doran doesn't always tell her everything nor does he always trust her with 'sensitive' information.

Again this is all just my speculation and I freely admit, it's bit crackpotty. It was just interesting to see that you had the same idea too Hippocras.

[Hippocras]

Arianne said

Full quote in the OP ;)

Ah.

Well that brings us around to option a - definitely not Rhaella, or option b - someone else, who is now old, was used as a diversion as Alayaya was for Shae. My number one candidate for the diversion (also based purely on exciting story value) is Lady Tanda - whose prominent place in the text so far must have SOME purpose.

No proof, but not impossible. And has very high story value. :D

[Anath]

Arianne was how old, seven? When they all died, I mean. Now, I know, Dorne and all but I really doubt she would have had the time to meet Lewyn's mistress, make an assessment of her and so on. Would she really know first hand? Or just repeat what she was told?

[Waylin Stark]

It was Lady Olenna Redwyne.

Just kidding.

I doubt the woman is anybody significant, or any person we'll be seeing later on. She was Lewyn's Paramour, that's it.