The Princess and the Queen [SPOILERS]

[MRHD]

What we seem to know by now is that it is a genuine piece of fiction, not a compilation attributed to some fake maester. GRRM and Ran indicated that 'The Princess and the Queen' would depict the events leading up to (and perhaps even into) the Dance from a certain point of view. For instance, it seems we won't get the full picture of Rhaenyra's second consort, this wondrous Targaryen.

The tale seems to have grown out of the work for the Worldbook and the tons of fake history he was writing last year (the so-called 'GRRMarillion'), but I cannot imagine that we are not going to get a real story.

Ah, that's great news then. Not that I would have not liked a fake history, but a PoV will be much more engaging. Thanks for clearing that up for me!

[Bob Sacamano]

Looks like December 3! Early Christmas!

http://grrm.livejournal.com/

ETA: Didn't know that was already known. Oops

[Arataniello]

And Tor is issuing sneak peeks of some of the pieces in Dangerous Women. I wonder if we will be fortunate enough to get a preview of GRRM's story?

[aceluby]

Even though I was disappointed to hear the news about the latest edition of D&E, I'm excited about the prospect of reading the one Martin will be contributing to the anthology.

I'm curious to see if we find out anything about how the Targaryen succession skipped Jaehaerys's child(ren) and went straight to Viserys I. I'm also thrilled at the prospect of finally seeing a female character who has been groomed for a leadership role in Westeros. I've always thought that the theft of her succession rights is one of the most overlooked issues in discussions of Westerosi history on the board.

I wonder if this story grew out of an overflow of information, similar to the origins of the app.

Completely agree. I find it facinating and want to desperately know more as to the reasons why she was declared the heir and why others didn't believe it mattered. Really interesting, especially in context of the Dany/Stannis 'legal' succession discussion.

[Lord Varys]

Well, it would not surprise me if Jaehaerys and Alysanne's designated heir was a daughter as well (the mother of Viserys I). Alysanne was certainly one of the most powerful queens in Westeros ever, along with Rhaenys and Visenya (who apparently were the ones really in charge, Aegon himself apparently was not that involved in the governance of the Realm), so it would not surprise me one bit if she had intended to give the Iron Throne to her eldest daughter. At least, that would make the missing Targaryen generation much more interesting then yet another prince.

In the early years, the Targaryen dynasty had the luck that the strong women were able to form a strong bond with their royal brothers to share the rule (i.e. Aegon and his sisters, Jaehaerys and Alysanne). But this trend could not continue forever (no idea yet if there was a strong (Targaryen) queen at Maegor and Aenys' side beside their mothers, but it's not impossible).

Viserys I had no sons from his first queen, and Rhaenyra was way too old and already married with three sons of her own (assuming that this is still the case) when her eldest half brother Aegon reached maturity. The chances that the power would pass to another royal couple was quite thin. With Rhaenyra being Viserys' eldest child, and the Valyrian/Targaryen custom during the dragon times not excluding women per se from the line of succession, it was obvious that Rhaenyra would succeed her father. Especially since said father explicitly treated her as his successor during his life, and declared her his heir in his will.

We don't yet know how everything turned out in the end, but there have been hints that Aegon II was really a piece of shit, and Rhaenyra obviously was very much in the right to try to take her crown back.

[Lord Varys]

The excerpt of “THE PRINCESS AND THE QUEEN, OR, THE BLACKS AND THE GREENS. Being A History of the Causes, Origins, Battles, and Betrayals of that Most Tragic Bloodletting Known as the Dance of the Dragons, as set down by Archmaester Gyldayn of the Citadel of Oldtown" can be found here:

http://www.tor.com/s...-martin-excerpt

Now it's confirmed, it's not an actual story, but an account written from the POV of Archmaester Gyldayn. But this does not matter at all, the opening pages are more than interesting, the whole Dance era and the reigns of Viserys I an Jaehaerys could easily develop into the most interesting Westerosi era.

Here as a mostly non-spoilery review of the whole story:

http://www.tor.com/b...-and-the-greens

Bridget's speculation that the desperate Targaryen factions attempt to recruit Targaryen bastards to their cause because they needed the dragon-bonding abilities of their blood to utilize the family dragons, may indeed foreshadow events to come in the main series (Tyrion's possible Targaryen heritage).

The fact that Rhaenyra Targaryen seems to have been reinvented as more of a warrior queen (the original description for the Amoka portrait said explicitly that she was no warrior) sits well with me. In fact, we most likely all pictured this whole Dance thing as some sort of a family feud on dragonback personally fought by the main characters (Rhaenyra and Aegon).

It comes also not as a surprise that the driving force behind Aegon's II coronation was his mother, Queen Dowager Alicent Hightower, daughter to Ser Otto Hightower, Hand of the King, who has already been referred to in the series as one of the worst Hands in history by, if I remember correctly, Maester Pylos. These two made Aegon II. Rhaenyra resided on Dragonstone when her father died in his sleep (I wonder why she was not in the capital and had no direct say in the government of the Realm?).

Five members of the Kingsguard were in the Red Keep at this time (Ser Criston Cole, Ser Arryk Cargyll, Ser Rickard Thorne, Ser Steffon Darklyn, and Ser Willis Fell). Sers Erryk Cargyll (twin to Ser Arryk) and Ser Lorent Marbrand were with Rhaenyra on Dragonstone.

Rhaenyra's men on her father's Small Council apparently were Grand Maester Orwyle (no idea of which house) and especially eighty-years old Master of Coin, Lyman Beesbury, who has served in that office under both Jaehaerys I and Viserys I.

Apparently many lords and knights of the Realm swore an oath to Rhaenyra in 105 A.C., promising to defend her rights. Beesbury also states that Rhaenyra has more Targaryen blood than Aegon, which seems to indicate that her Arryn mother was half-Targaryen, whereas Queen Alicent was a Hightower with no or less Targaryen blood than Rhaenyra's mother.

A really interesting revelation is the fact that the Dance was not only a war between the two main contenders, but that there were so many Targaryen princes (and dragons) around that there were many petty Targaryen kings, who lasted only a fortnight or so.

In the excerpt itself there are no Targaryens mentioned beside Rhaenyra, Aegon (who apparently had originally no ambition to claim the Iron Throne), and Viserys. But Bridget mentions a lot of strong Targaryen women in her review:

'Princess Rhaenys Targaryen (known as “The Queen Who Never Was”), Baela Targaryen, the teenaged dragonrider called Nettles, and Alys Rivers, a seer.'

Apparently, Rhaenyra also faces some trouble within her own faction, since her sons seem not eager to heed their mother's advice. They most likely fight for his mother in the coming war, but as of yet this is just speculation. Aegon III and Viserys II should be very young children at the outbreak of the war.

The origin of the strife apparently is shrouded as much in mystery as Robert's Rebellion. What the Tourney of Harrenhal is for the main series, a ball for the Dance of the Dragons. On this ball, Queen Helicent wore green, and Rhaenyra wore black, thus the names of the two main factions in the Dance.

The fact that the Dance should better be called 'the Death of the Dragons' seems to refer not only to the fact that nearly all the Targaryen family dragons died in the war, but also to the near extinction of the Targaryen dynasty, and the eradication plenty of cadet branches of the family tree. It seems also to be fall from grace, the dragon-riding Targaryens before the Dance apparently really were treated as semi-divine, and seemed to have ruled much more absolute over Westeros than their successors.

A Larys Strong is Lord of Harrenhal at this time, and serves as Lord of Whisperers on Viserys' Small Council. This seems to indicate that Lyonel Strong is indeed gone, although he would have been dead at this time anyway, considering that he once was supposed to be Rhaenyra's first husband. Ser Otto Hightower did most likely not serve all that long as Hand of the King under Viserys I.

[Lord Varys]

Considering that the main thread apparently won't be up all that long, I thought I should make a special one for the occasion:

http://www.tor.com/stories/2013/07/dangerous-women-george-r-r-martin-excerpt

http://www.tor.com/stories/2013/07/dangerous-women-george-r-r-martin-excerpt

Have fun!

[eggs]

Internecine? Can't believe I had to look up a word that early in.

[Four-Eyed Crow]

Looks like maybe Alliser Thorne's great-great-great-uncle was KG material.

[History of Westeros]

Interesting that there are no Targs on the small council or in the Kingsguard.

This Grand Maester Orwyle must not have lived long, as Grand Maester Gerardys was fed to Aegon's dragon. Only one GM at a time. Easy to see why, as he's clearly supporting Rhaenyra.

[chrisdaw]

Since dragons will only accept and bond with riders of Targaryen blood

From the review.

If Tyrion is going dragon riding guess who's his daddy.

[eggs]

Hour of the Bat? Wut?

Why is Criston Cole known as the Kingmaker if he was only following that bitch Queen and her father's orders?

Some interesting lines:

other wouldbe kings would stake claims as well, strutting about like mummers on a stage for a fortnight or a moon’s turn, only to fall as swiftly as they had arisen.

much of the slaughter took place on water

[Lord Varys]

I think we should continue the discussion in the main 'The Princess and the Queen' thread over here:

Especially but not only because I've already posted a lengthy commentary there ;-).

[Ran]

Rhaenyra is no warrior. :) She's involved in all this stuff, of course, she makes decisions, she sits in judgment and so on, but near as I can remember she never strikes a blow...

She does have a suit of armor for when riding the dragon into dangerous situations, of course.

[Mark Antony]

Cool thanks for posting the excerpt.

[Rooghar Targaryen]

Sooo Awesome! Looks Great.

I wonder if the Dance with Dragons is where House Strong of Harrenhal goes extinct.

[eggs]

The Lannisters are rich and powerful, the Starks are grim and honorable, the Baratheons are proud and make trouble, the Greyjoys are belligerent and fickle, and some of the alliances made<<<<<< can't wait to read about the old heads of the houses and their notable members.

[Anath]

Hmm, I remember that she was no warrior. Anyway, with three adult sons she didn't really need to be. I wonder what kind of troubled relationship they had. Maybe they were warriors to boot and entered fights they had little chance of winning against Rhaenyra's more level-headed assessmet of the situation? I can't imagine they were so much against the idea of being a Queen's sons. Maybe they had a Daeron I complex?

I wonder what kind of a Hand Rhaenyra's first husband was - not the worst one, since that's the Queen's father but still, I doubt Viserys appointed Lord Hightower with the explicit goal of letting him bring the Seven Kingdoms to ruins. More likely, he just honoured his good-father.

So, does anyone know whether Lyonel Strong had some other merits beside being Rhaenyra's husband?

Oh and thanks for posting the links.

[Bushido]

The Lannisters are rich and powerful, the Starks are grim and honorable, the Baratheons are proud and make trouble, the Greyjoys are belligerent and fickle, and some of the alliances made<<<<<< can't wait to read about the old heads of the houses and their notable members.

First thing that caught my attention :) The Starks are blacks, right? They must be.

Another thing Alys Rivers a seer. Another Targaryen - Blackwood offspring or simply a seer from the Riverlands?

[eggs]

First thing that caught my attention :) The Starks are blacks, right? They must be.

well apparently they were honorable back in the day, so yeah.