What is Tywin's relationship to/opinion of Cersei?

[TalalOfDorne]

^

I dont know about the second one but the first one was told by Oberyn and we cant be sure its 100% true. But supposing they were, imagine if Cersei had a father who actually explained to her that what happened wasnt the babys fault and that it was just how life is, or if she was able to trust her father and actually talk to him about what she saw in Maggy the Frogs tent. I say it again Cersei would have turned out to be a better person had it not been for Tywin

[mcb]

Well, given a better environment and better education, I think she would be in a much better state. And honestly I never thought of her as completely incompetent, just not experienced enough. Again that goes back to the environment she was raised in and Westerosi societys view on women in general. She doesnt receive the proper training as Jaime has, she is only used as a way to secure alliances by marriage. I think she is a clever wiman who had great potential had she not been misguided and mistreated.

The biggest problem with Cersei is not that she's incompetent, it's that she has no idea that she's incompetent. She accepts no advice, the only thing she wants to hear is "yes, ma'am". By the way, Tyrion was even bigger a noob than her, never put in charge of anything (except for cleaning Casterly Rock's gutters) and never intended to rule, and yet he did way better than his sister.

We may agree than with radically different personal history, Cersei could end a different character. With radically different personal history and different genetic makeup, she'd be an entirely different person for sure. But this is the Cersei we have.

[Arkantos]

I'd say Tywin probably thought she was a complete buffoon at the end of his life.

[nara]

Agree with all the comments that Cersei is Tywin's pawn. However, I think he must have some affection for her because he makes it clear to Tyrion that he is not to tell Cersei that she's been rejected by the Tyrells. Telling her would have been a good way to put her in her place and make her understand that she didn't have many options. I thought he wanted to spare her feelings. Also, at another point, he kisses her on the cheek. It's not exactly a warm relatiohship, but nor is it completely hostile

[Florina Laufeyson]

Oh i think Tywin had a measure of pride for Cersei. She grew to be a beauty and a queen. Despite all her screw ups, he must have have taken pride in that.

[Djinn]

She was, superficially, the perfect daughter of a high Lord: beautiful, healthy, fertile, educated. So Tywin clearly had a mesure of pride in her(ust like he had for Jaime). And she a Lannister of Casterly Rock, which mean that the best/most advantageous marriage must be available to her(in his view), notie how he oposed his sister marriage to a second son (Eamon Frey).

Tywin is ultimately, very conventional, and so see his children in conventional way: Jaime the warrior/Lord and Cersei the mother/Lady. To him, marrying Cersei to the King(however he was) was the perfect feat, made even more so by three healthy granchildren of royal blood. But then, Cersei does the most annoying thing she could do to Tywin, she foolish. Remember, Lannisters do not act like fools(Tyin clearly despises the mere idea of it). So he forced to use the embaressement (Tyrion) to lean up her mess. Later,he begins to realize how much of a disapointment she is: the rumors of adultery, the stupid decisions, Joofrey's upbringing, her recklessness. Of course, he still sees her with value, so the offers to marry her to Wyllas (Lady of Highgarden), Oberyn/Quentyn (Princess of Dorne). She's one of his favorite and most treasured tools, untill he start to realize how defective that tools has become.

I disagree with the idea that Cersei is so incompetent because of her upbringing/gender or Tywin's influence. She has the same upbringing as Catelyn, Margaery,Oleanna, Ellerie, Genna, Barbrey, Anya, Myranda and other higborn ladies. Are any so foolish as her? Just as Jaime Lannister and Merret Frey were squires at Crakehall at the same time but one was a elite warrior while other was pathetic, so is with Cersei.

[Minstral]

Agree with all the comments that Cersei is Tywin's pawn. However, I think he must have some affection for her because he makes it clear to Tyrion that he is not to tell Cersei that she's been rejected by the Tyrells. Telling her would have been a good way to put her in her place and make her understand that she didn't have many options. I thought he wanted to spare her feelings. Also, at another point, he kisses her on the cheek. It's not exactly a warm relatiohship, but nor is it completely hostile

I would gather that him silencing Tyrion has more to do with staving off any leaks of the information. Imagine what would go on in Tywin's head if word had gotten out about this rejected match. It would be like the phantom laughter ringing in the ears of Tywin, which would be the only thing he has in common with Jaime after his dismemberment.

[Winter's Knight]

I just thought of something: we know that Cersei looks like Joanna-do you think that, just as Tywin blamed Tyrion for his mother's death, he couldn't bear to abide with a living copy of his wife? It' explain why he was in such a rush to marry her off in ASoS-she would've been as old as Joanna when she died.

[Kolantero]

She viewed her as an asset like all his children to be used to further the "Lannister glory".

As for her character, I don't think he had any illusions about her, he probably saw her as incompetent and arrogant (and cruel but i don't think he cared about that).

[Mr Hodor]

I think Tywin loved Cersei to the point that he chose to ignore the fact that Cersei was bedding Jamie.

Though he was aware of Cersei incompetence as a ruler and disapproved of her raising of Joffrey.

[A Real Dire Wolf]

Well, Cersei has that part in AFFC where she's reminiscing about her father and thinks something like "Everyone thought Lord Tywin never smiled, but they were weong. He had a secret smile he reserved for Cersei." so if nothing else Cersei certainly thought her father loved her.

[nekrohsis]

I think Tywin is extremely dismissive of her as anything else but a pawn; there's multiple moments in the books where we see him entrust Tyrion with power and responsibility, but never Cersei. Considering how strained his relationship with Tyrion is and how much Cersei idolizes him, his lack of respect for her abilities is shocking.

[Theda Baratheon]

I just thought of something: we know that Cersei looks like Joanna-do you think that, just as Tywin blamed Tyrion for his mother's death, he couldn't bear to abide with a living copy of his wife? It' explain why he was in such a rush to marry her off in ASoS-she would've been as old as Joanna when she died.

Hmm, I think this is really interesting and pretty plausible. It's also quite sad considering how much Cersei idolizes her father.

[Currawong]

She viewed her as an asset like all his children to be used to further the "Lannister glory".

Tywin wasn't the only father to view his daughter(s) as a political tool. Its quite clear in the books (and indeed, RL medieval times) that many or even most high-born marriages were for political / family alliance reasons, so I don't see any reason to particularly condemn Tywin for this attitude towards Cersei. Daughters in particular were generally viewed as bartering tools, so in that respect we need to keep Tywin in the context of his society.

[Theda Baratheon]

Tywin wasn't the only father to view his daughter(s) as a political tool. Its quite clear in the books (and indeed, RL medieval times) that many or even most high-born marriages were for political / family alliance reasons, so I don't see any reason to particularly condemn Tywin for this attitude towards Cersei. Daughters in particular were generally viewed as bartering tools, so in that respect we need to keep Tywin in the context of his society.

Yes, sadly this is definitely true

[Arkantos]

As were second, third etc sons.

[Ludd]

I think Tywin loved Jaime and Cersai and FEARED Tyrion

I have a gut feeling that Maggie the soothsayer has another role. The day Cersai went to visit her it may perhaps be guessed that MANY others also did so.

Tywin????

I also suspect that there is a family legend of a "Child of a whore" that is the last Lannister.

[Theda Baratheon]

I think Tywin loved Jaime and Cersai and FEARED Tyrion

I have a gut feeling that Maggie the soothsayer has another role. The day Cersai went to visit her it may perhaps be guessed that MANY others also did so.

Tywin????

I also suspect that there is a family legend of a "Child of a whore" that is the last Lannister.

Ooooh, interesting; I like this

[Lion of Judah]

Tywin used used her even offering her the Oberyn Martell at one point only to be rejected. Cersei definitely had resentment about being a piece in everyone else's game, she got tired of it. One thing about Cersei that gets unsaid is her potential. Cersei has the potential to be the smartest player in the game of thrones, IMO better than LF and Varys. She is not stupid by any measure, but she is impulsive and she is cruel and irrational. She is too self absorbed and she thinks her cruel ways will prevent people from conspiring against her when it has only served to appease them to do so.

[Theda Baratheon]

Stupid implies that one lacks intelligence, not that they are impulsive or irrational. Stupid is not synonymous with impulsive and irrational.

Cersei is not stupid by any means, but she is very impulsive, very paranoid, very irrational. It's a shame because if she was a little more level-headed and subtle she could be quite the player.