What is Tywin's relationship to/opinion of Cersei?

[JonNonRegis]

I think he sees her as a way to boost house Lannister to more power and like all his children he is never really close to her and he underestimates her. He doesnt seem to realize what she does behind his back and he probably thinks she will listen to anything he says. Any love for her is actually love for House Lannister.

Cersei actually admires her father in a way and hopes to be like him. Yet she still resents him for the things he did to her as a child. So I dont think the two were close at all.

Just so.

[Lion of Judah]

Cersei is not stupid by any means, but she is very impulsive, very paranoid, very irrational. It's a shame because if she was a little more level-headed and subtle she could be quite the player.

This exactly.

[JonNonRegis]

Cersei is not stupid by any means, but she is very impulsive, very paranoid, very irrational. It's a shame because if she was a little more level-headed and subtle she could be quite the player.

Yes indeed. Imagine what she might have accomplished if, like Queen Elizabeth I, she had remained single all her life, and leveraged male interest in her for her own advantage. She could have had her Jaime-cake, and eaten it too.

Unfortunately for her, Tywin's aggressive political ambitions and maneuvering put an end to any such scenario.

[The Rise of Dorne]

Stupid implies that one lacks intelligence, not that they are impulsive or irrational. Stupid is not synonymous with impulsive and irrational.

Cersei is not stupid by any means, but she is very impulsive, very paranoid, very irrational. It's a shame because if she was a little more level-headed and subtle she could be quite the player.

Yeah but she could decide to over ride her lack of impulse control. She could decide the outcomes are suboptimal. Not deciding this.... indicates a lack of intelligence. Since there are clearly adverse consequences. Have you ever taken an IQ test? The ability to make rational deductions is a very large part of the test? How can you say the failure to recognize logical patterns and apply them in not indicative of intelligence?

[Lion of Judah]

Yeah but she could decide to over ride her lack of impulse control. She could decide the outcomes are suboptimal. Not deciding this.... indicates a lack of intelligence. Since there are clearly adverse consequences. Have you ever taken an IQ test? The ability to make rational deductions is a very large part of the test? How can you say the failure to recognize logical patterns and apply them in not indicative of intelligence?

Her actions doesn't indicate a lack of intelligence though, it indicates that she is arrogant, which is an adjective more fitting when describing Cersei. I doubt that anyone has ever felt that Cersei had a learning disability of any sort.

[Theda Baratheon]

Yes indeed. Imagine what she might have accomplished if, like Queen Elizabeth I, she had remained single all her life, and leveraged male interest in her for her own advantage. She could have had her Jaime-cake, and eaten it too.

Unfortunately for her, Tywin's aggressive political ambitions and maneuvering put an end to any such scenario.

Definitely.

Yeah but she could decide to over ride her lack of impulse control. She could decide the outcomes are suboptimal. Not deciding this.... indicates a lack of intelligence. Since there are clearly adverse consequences. Have you ever taken an IQ test? The ability to make rational deductions is a very large part of the test? How can you say the failure to recognize logical patterns and apply them in not indicative of intelligence?

I don't really think an IQ test is a very good example to be fair.

When you're passionate and impulsive you don't just sit calmly and decide what to do other wise you wouldn't be passionate and compulsive; it doesn't show a lack of intelligence, it shows she is just very irrational; that doesn't mean she is unintelligent.

[Castel]

Her actions doesn't indicate a lack of intelligence though, it indicates that she is arrogant, which is an adjective more fitting when describing Cersei. I doubt that anyone has ever felt that Cersei had a learning disability of any sort.

The distinction is ultimately not that important. Cersei acts in a manner almost indistinguishable from a stupid person. Her personal reasons may weigh her down but she's not particularly good at nuanced thinking. She doesn't have a learning disability, but there's a huge gap between that and intelligent.

I don't see the point in stressing that she's not an idiot. Take a Pastor, he may be the smartest Pastor in the world but as long as he's bound in his faith he'll make dumb decisions based on it. Whether he has an eidetic memory or is great at math is irrelevant, he's still, from a purely logical perspective an idiot.

Even before paranoia overtook her she was prone to silly decisions that made no sense. Dismissing Barristan, granting Harrenhal to Janos Slynt instead of keeping it for another lord who needed bribing, recalling Joffrey from the front lines. Even her good decisions had seeds of genius with no true follow-up. Wildfire? Yes, it's totally a good idea to have scared men throwing wildfire around.

Yes indeed. Imagine what she might have accomplished if, like Queen Elizabeth I, she had remained single all her life, and leveraged male interest in her for her own advantage. She could have had her Jaime-cake, and eaten it too.

What? Cersei was never going to be Elizabeth. She was never powerful in her own right,she was never going to rule or control anything except from behind a man. In fact, Tywin's actions benefitted her because Tyrion was supposed to be heir, but he was marginalized. You need a powerbase of your own before you can keep ambitious men running after you.

[Theda Baratheon]

I think she's ultimately just pretty bonkers.

[The Rise of Dorne]

Yeah ok. Tyrion and Tywin are arrogant too. But they can still rationally analyze a situation. Tywin was arrogant about kicking Robbs starks ass, when it didn't work, he reversed his entire course of action and strategy.

Look at how Cersei fails understand Tywin's disposition at Harrenhal in CoK. This is really basic stuff. She fails to recognize the fundamental power imbalance between her and the Tyrells, not even to pause and rebuild her strength. Cersei's arrogance keeps adversely affecting her and she utterly fails to recognize this let alone adjust her behavior. That's an intelligence, problem.

And a learning disability, is actually the opposite of not being intelligent, they measure our IQ and then compare it to your ability to absorb or produce information under specific conditions. When they don't match, its called a learning disability. basically.

[Lion of Judah]

The distinction is ultimately not that important. Cersei acts in a manner almost indistinguishable from a stupid person. Her personal reasons may weigh her down but she's not particularly good at nuanced thinking. She doesn't have a learning disability, but there's a huge gap between that and intelligent.

I don't see the point in stressing that she's not an idiot. Take a Pastor, he may be the smartest Pastor in the world but as long as he's bound in his faith he'll make dumb decisions based on it. Whether he has an eidetic memory or is great at math is irrelevant, he's still, from a purely logical perspective an idiot.

Even before paranoia overtook her she was prone to silly decisions that made no sense. Dismissing Barristan, granting Harrenhal to Janos Slynt instead of keeping it for another lord who needed bribing, recalling Joffrey from the front lines. Even her good decisions had seeds of genius with no true follow-up. Wildfire? Yes, it's totally a good idea to have scared men throwing wildfire around.

What? Cersei was never going to be Elizabeth. She was never powerful in her own right,she was never going to rule or control anything except from behind a man. In fact, Tywin's actions benefitted her because Tyrion was supposed to be heir, but he was marginalized. You need a powerbase of your own before you can keep ambitious men running after you.

Yes and no. Ultimately it doesn't matter because of her results or lack thereof, but I think one of the great tragedies of her character is the potential that will never come to fruition. Her decisions as you highlighted in some cases are unnecessary blunders, but the source of them is more arrogance than of stupidity IMO.

[Kolantero]

As were second, third etc sons.

In many cases even first-born/heirs (Brandon, Ned- a heir after Brandon's death, Edmure in Wot5K etc)

[Theda Baratheon]

Yes and no. Ultimately it doesn't matter because of her results or lack thereof, but I think one of the great tragedies of her character is the potential that will never come to fruition. Her decisions as you highlighted in some cases are unnecessary blunders, but the source of them is more arrogance than of stupidity IMO.

Exactly.

[Lion of Judah]

Yeah ok. Tyrion and Tywin are arrogant too. But they can still rationally analyze a situation. Tywin was arrogant about kicking Robbs starks ass, when it didn't work, he reversed his entire course of action and strategy. Look at how Cersei fails understand Tywin's disposition at Harrenhal in CoK. This is really basic stuff. She fails to recognize the fundamental power imbalance between her and the Tyrells, not even to pause and rebuild her strength. Cersei's arrogance keeps adversely affecting her and she utterly fails to recognize this let alone adjust her behavior. That's an intelligence, problem. And a learning disability, is actually the opposite of not being intelligent, they measure our IQ and then compare it to your ability to absorb or produce information under specific conditions. When they don't match, its called a learning disability. basically.

What are we arguing here? The fact that she made bad decisions or the idea that she is stupid? I don't recall bad decision making to be something exclusive to only stupid people. You sort to relate the 2 as though bad decision making automatically determines that someone is stupid/learning disabled and I don't agree.

[Kolantero]

Tywin wasn't the only father to view his daughter(s) as a political tool. Its quite clear in the books (and indeed, RL medieval times) that many or even most high-born marriages were for political / family alliance reasons, so I don't see any reason to particularly condemn Tywin for this attitude towards Cersei. Daughters in particular were generally viewed as bartering tools, so in that respect we need to keep Tywin in the context of his society.

True, wasn't implying that Tywin's behaviour in that respect is unique in the books, although I do believe that Tywin did take that to the extreme (zero care about his children's feelings, maximum effort to get the best "bargain").

[Castel]

Yes and no. Ultimately it doesn't matter because of her results or lack thereof, but I think one of the great tragedies of her character is the potential that will never come to fruition. Her decisions as you highlighted in some cases are unnecessary blunders, but the source of them is more arrogance than of stupidity IMO.

Sorry, I just don't see the distinction as meaningful. As I said, if you have a character flaw that makes you pick stupid paths you are, in effect,stupid. I don't mean stupid in the mechanical way, as in "can't count to ten" I mean stupid in the sense that she's simply blind to the better alternatives. Why she is that way doesn't change anything as far as I'm concerned.

But to argue on the arrogant label, only the dismissal of Barristan can be seen as arrogant, and even then she didn't see the danger and not care, she was simply blind. Later on,in Feast, she was arrogant, before she was simply dumb. Pulling Joff back served no purpose, not following up on the wildfire seems more to be a sign of a simple mind making simple thoughts without deeper thinking (due to a lack of experience with warfare) than anything.

In Feast she simply didn't give a shit about anyone but she was making bad decisions divorced from sense a while before.

True, wasn't implying that Tywin's behaviour in that respect is unique in the books, although I do believe that Tywin did take that to the extreme (zero care about his children's feelings, maximum effort to get the best "bargain").

Did Ned consult with Sansa when he was marrying her to Joffrey? Was there any indication that he would have called it off if she had said no? Let's ask the same question for every lord in the series. I can think of only one that I think would have cared.

Later on, the Lannisters were in a fragile position and had to shore up their defenses. Tywin of all people knew that falling even once meant death, no one is going to let you get back up. He was extreme because the times were.

[The Rise of Dorne]

Well as I just said, having a learning disability as nothing to do with being stupid. So no. i'm saying they're the same thing.

Bad decision making is indicative of stupidity. Its like the #1 indicator. And its the poor reasoning behind her bad decisions that indicate she's stupid. Not just that she makes some decisions that don't turn out well. Its the underlying assumptions and the way she fits them together that indicate stupidity. And since we have POVs inside her head, we know she's just not very smart. I mean she's not incredibly stupid. Just regular, dumbest person in her family. not bright. stupid.

And hey I don't have anything against Cersei. I think she's a lot like Theon. She's cruel because she thinks its a job requirement. She's over compensating for a distant father. She was sold to Robert as Theon was sold off to the starks. But there's some fundamental failures of reasoning underlying it all.

[Kolantero]

Did Ned consult with Sansa when he was marrying her to Joffrey? Was there any indication that he would have called it off if she had said no? Let's ask the same question for every lord in the series. I can think of only one that I think would have cared.

Ned was essentially "ordered" by Robert to betroth his daughter to Joffrey and Sansa was ecstatic about it. So there is no indication that Ned wouldn't have called it off if she said "no" either. Ned never used Sansa to strike a bargain, it was Robert who proposed it.

Even if he did insist on the marriage if Sansa had said "no" there is not a chance in hell that Ned would let anyone who was married to Sansa to abuse her and i really doubt that he would have accepted if he knew what an ass Joffrey really was. This is contrasted with Tywin, who couldn't care less about the kind of person his children will marry to (e.g. Robert and Cercei, the list he presents as potential "grooms" to Cercei in ASOS) if it means that he will get more power.

[Castel]

Ned was essentially "ordered" by Robert to betroth his daughter to Joffrey and Sansa was ecstatic about it. So there is no indication that Ned wouldn't have called it off if she said "no" either. Ned never used Sansa to strike a bargain, it was Robert who proposed it.

Even if he did insist on the marriage if Sansa had said "no" there is not a chance in hell that Ned would let anyone who was married to Sansa to abuse her and i really doubt that he would have accepted if he knew what an ass Joffrey really was. This is contrasted with Tywin, who couldn't care less about the kind of person his children will marry to (e.g. Robert and Cercei, the list he presents as potential "grooms" to Cercei in ASOS) if it means that he will get more power.

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Notice that Cersei's bitterness over her marriage is after-the-fact, she tells Ned that she thought she loved Robert when she first saw him, that he was handsome and gallant, not to mention powerful. The anger and resentment came later. At this point who knew that Robert would commit marital rape? Did Tywin even know?

Later the issue comes up, and Tywin is harsher, because the times are harsher, but no one on that list was going to abuse Cersei. Willas, especially not.

Also, Ned agreed, and I don't see any sign that he considered it improper or would have called it off if Sansa was mad. I see a speech about honor and sacrifice in Sansa's future if that was the case.

[Currawong]

Yeah but she could decide to over ride her lack of impulse control. She could decide the outcomes are suboptimal. Not deciding this.... indicates a lack of intelligence. Since there are clearly adverse consequences. Have you ever taken an IQ test? The ability to make rational deductions is a very large part of the test? How can you say the failure to recognize logical patterns and apply them in not indicative of intelligence?

IQ tests merely give a certain base level of culture-specific intelligence but what an IQ test doesn't measure is emotional intelligence, or all the many other personality factors.

You can have people who are very highly 'intelligent' according to their IQ, and whom no-one would normally call 'stupid', but they nevertheless often make poor decisions because, for example, they are extremely poor at reading or understanding other people or their motivations, or because they themselves have various emotions/personality factors that impact on their rational, logical thought processes.

That is the case with Cersei, who would undoubtedly score as 'intelligent' on an IQ test, but who makes bad decisions because of many other factors, such as her almost paranoid fear for the safety of her children. That doesn't make her 'stupid' as such, it just means that often - as with so many people in RL at times - she allows her heart to rule her head. That is part of what makes her such a fascinating person, seeing how a normally calculating woman can gradually become driven more by emotions than rationality/logic. I think Cersei was always probably poor at reading people anyway, and her desire for power plus growing paranoia has just made this worse.

[Theda Baratheon]

IQ tests merely give a certain base level of culture-specific intelligence but what an IQ test doesn't measure is emotional intelligence, or all the many other personality factors.

You can have people who are very highly 'intelligent' according to their IQ, and whom no-one would normally call 'stupid', but they nevertheless often make poor decisions because, for example, they are extremely poor at reading or understanding other people or their motivations, or because they themselves have various emotions/personality factors that impact on their rational, logical thought processes.

That is the case with Cersei, who would undoubtedly score as 'intelligent' on an IQ test, but who makes bad decisions because of many other factors, such as her almost paranoid fear for the safety of her children. That doesn't make her 'stupid' as such, it just means that often - as with so many people in RL at times - she allows her heart to rule her head. That is part of what makes her such a fascinating person, seeing how a normally calculating woman can gradually become driven more by emotions than rationality/logic. I think Cersei was always probably poor at reading people anyway, and her desire for power plus growing paranoia has just made this worse.

Exactly this.