Cersei - feminist character, or not?

[Lyanna Stark]

In response to questions raised in another thread regarding Cersei and how she can be viewed as a feminist character.

So you're saying Cercei is a feminist symbol while her own character behaves the exact opposite of a feminist? No I don't understand that logic...but I'm only male forgive me. ;)

ps two words, Asha Greyjoy, closest thing to a feminist we'll get.

Well yes. Cersei illustrates a lot of the problems women run in to. Her classic speech to Sansa about being sold off to Robert to be ridden like a horse and then discarded is a straight up criticism of women's lack of agency in arranged marriages, which is an extremely relevant point in ASOIAF and something all the female charcters struggle with. Some quick examples that can be mentioned are Sansa, who's been offered up like a piece of meat on the marriage market, where Sansa_herself has been irrelevant to the scheming parties, but her possible claim to Winterfell was the prize. Tyrells, Lannisters, Lysa Arryn and now Littlefinger wanted or wants to use her for her claim.

Asha ran into a similar problem when trying to assert her right to the Seastone Chair. Victarion even thought she proposed to marry him when she suggested co-rule. It never occurred to him to share rule with a woman, or to have a female Hand of the King, so to speak, again asserting that women and marriage is an affair where the woman is subjugated and her Lord's subject.

Dany was reminded by Daario in ADWD that the role of a queen is normally to give birth. Queens do not rule, that is for kings.

However, the woman who puts is as plain as it could be is Cersei. She tells Sansa straight out that being queen is being a pretty figurehead that should give birth to babies and wear pretty dresses. It's a facade, empty of real content. Hence what Cersei does here is critisicing the way things are, and how her role as a woman had a very real impact on her life. She compares herself to Jaime who was allowed to use a sword, and laments how different people treated her when she dressed up in boys' clothing.

Now, Cersei herself does not act to enforce any laws or regulations that will make women's lives easier. Not at all. On the contrary, Cersei instead often perpetuates the oppressive structures she herself laments. Hence Cersei Lannister is definitely not a feminist, but she is a vehicle for a feminist critique of women's situation in Westeros. She is a brilliant character in so far as she is a 100% product of her society and cannot see outside of her own box. In that way, she becomes both a victim and a perpetrator, in her role as perpetuating the rules she herself finds so repulsive, yet no other alternative occurs to her.

Cersei is in this way used as a mouthpiece to express a critique aimed at inequality and lack of female agency. While none of the other major female POV characters are in any way devoid of similar problems (in fact, many of them deal with different facets of the same issue: Brienne, Arya, Dany, Sansa, Arianne, Asha, Cat all run into the same basic issue as Cersei: they are female in a very male dominated society and it restricts them, which means they chafe at what they can't do. Arya wants to carry a sword, Brienne wants to be a knight, Asha wants to be Hand of the King, or to rule the Iron Islands, Cat wanted people to listen to her advice, but she got brushed off due to being only a woman, Sansa wants to marry someone she loves and not be a a claim with a pretty face on and Cersei wants power in her own right. Which Dany now has as owner or dragons, but she was sold off to Khal Drogo and her experiences as the ultimate "piece of meat" means she is now fighting tooth and nail against slavery. Arianne thinks Doran prefers Quentyn to rule Dorne since he is male.

None of the female POV characters are gung ho about accepting the Westeros norms for noble ladies and just go with the flow. All of them have realised negative consequences of their gender, so in that regard, they are all feminist critiques. Cersei, however, is the one character who puts it the plainest in black and white. That doesn't mean that she is the only one. Just the most "obvious" one. :)

Also, being male or female has no bearing on "getting" feminism, or agreeing with it, I think. Lots of male feminists down in Gen Chat should you ever pop by.

EDIT: apologising for poor spelling btw, my spell checker has decided not to cooperate.

[Winter's Knight]

Jesus Lyanna, I am yet to recover from the latest Dany/Drogo thread. :(

That said, I think I can explain this anther way: Cersei is a feminist symbol the same way Tyrion is an icon for disabled folks' rights, although neither of them try and improve the lots of the minority they represent, they are poster-kids for the negative effects that sciety's discrimination has on them.

[willy york]

Cersei Lannister is definitely not a feminist

i think she is. just because she doesnt champion feminism doesnt mean she isnt a feminist. she totally has a feminist ideology.

[Nerolunar]

Great point. she also thinks other women is weak, but not herself :)

[Lyanna Stark]

sorry WK. ;)

i think she is. just because she doesnt champion feminism doesnt mean she isnt a feminist. she totally has a feminist ideology.

I'm not sure what you mean with "feminist ideology". Care to explain further?

[The guy from the Vale]

@Lyanna's awesome OP: :bowdown: :agree: :bowdown:

That said, it should be really clear that while Cersei's critique is spot on, she herself is a glaring hypocrite in this regard, particularly when trying to slut-shame (even slut-kill) Margaery, but also in her behaviour towards Sansa, Taena, and Falyse. Cersei's problem is that while she criticises the patriarchy, she doesn't want to remove it, but be the patriarchy herself.

[Ducks in a Field]

One of my favourite things about Cersei and feminism is that Cersei blames not being listened to and respected as a ruler on her sex rather than the fact she is not a very good ruler. As readers we slap our face into our hands at some of her actions and sometimes I want to shout at her "Cersei - People aren't listening to you because you are an idiot - not because you are a woman". Of course whilst this is true to a degree - Cersei is both an idot and a woman so has a harder time being heard than most, if she were a man she would not have this problem at all.

If Cersei were a man she would be heir to Casterly Rock, and her she would not have to work so hard to get the power that she craves. People would listen to her ideas because she was heir to Casterly Rock - people would make her ideas work to not run the risk of offending her.

When Cersei says people disragard her because she is a woman, she is right. When Cersei talks about how hard it is to be a woman in Westeros she knows what she is talkng about.

[Ingelheim]

Well, it's an interesting topic, and it has arguments for both sides. Cersei is attractive, intelligent and she uses her body as a weapon, she loves her children, and she thinks of herself as the best woman ever. I've always considered her the most interesting female character (that is my opinion), but I don't know if I would call her a feminist icon.

[Kolantero]

Cercei is "The Feminist That Failed"

[willy york]

I'm not sure what you mean with "feminist ideology". Care to explain further?

she believes she should be treated equally regardless of her sex. thats pretty much cersei.

[SeanF]

Winter's Knight, the point about both Cersei and Tyrion is they don't object to the system; they only object to their place in it.

By the standards of most of the population, however, they are both very privileged people (as indeed are people like Arianne, Asha, and Brienne).

As it happens, Cersei could have held power for a long time, as Queen Regent, had she been more shrewd and tactful.

[Leviathan I]

I'm under the impression that the ridiculous notion of feminism doesn't exist in ASOIAF...

[Lyanna Stark]

One of my favourite things about Cersei and feminism is that Cersei blames not being listened to and respected as a ruler on her sex rather than the fact she is not a very good ruler. As readers we slap our face into our hands at some of her actions and sometimes I want to shout at her "Cersei - People aren't listening to you because you are an idiot - not because you are a woman". Of course whilst this is true to a degree - Cersei is both an idot and a woman so has a harder time being heard than most, if she were a man she would not have this problem at all.

As a sidenote, in the Tyrion re-read thread people were discussing that Tyrion has a similar reaction to his dwarfism. Like WK pointed out above: Cersei is a poster child for feminism like Tyrion is for disabled folks' rights, but none of them are "perfect" just because of that. Not trying to turn this into a Tyrion thread, it just struck me that Cersei and Tyrion may be more alike than they'd like to think in that the very real problems they are struggling with they allow to "take over", so to speakl :)

@Lyanna's awesome OP: :bowdown: :agree: :bowdown:

That said, it should be really clear that while Cersei's critique is spot on, she herself is a glaring hypocrite in this regard, particularly when trying to slut-shame (even slut-kill) Margaery, but also in her behaviour towards Sansa, Taena, and Falyse. Cersei's problem is that while she criticises the patriarchy, she doesn't want to remove it, but be the patriarchy herself.

Awwh thanks. :) I promise I'll go back and make it neater once I get access to a spell checker.

Cersei is doubly interesting in that she places such a spot on critique, and then works so very hard to become a patriarchal ruler herself, and really try to rule "Tywin style" by exerting a very patriarchal style of power. So yes, I think you're very right in saying she doesn't want to remove the patriarchy, or has no interest in it, she wants to be the patriarchy. As long as it works to give her more power, she is fine with it existing. She has (for reasons I won't go into here) little to no sympathy or feelings of sisterhood for other women.

[SeanF]

@Lyanna's awesome OP: :bowdown: :agree: :bowdown:

That said, it should be really clear that while Cersei's critique is spot on, she herself is a glaring hypocrite in this regard, particularly when trying to slut-shame (even slut-kill) Margaery, but also in her behaviour towards Sansa, Taena, and Falyse. Cersei's problem is that while she criticises the patriarchy, she doesn't want to remove it, but be the patriarchy herself.

Why should she wish to destroy the very system that places her very nearly at the top of the tree?

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm under the impression that the ridiculous notion of feminism doesn't exist in ASOIAF...

Hmm, not sure what is "ridiculous" about equality between the sexes. Or do you mean that the women in ASOIAF don't have issues with a sexist society? Care to explain further?

she believes she should be treated equally regardless of her sex. thats pretty much cersei.

Ah right, I see what you mean. The problem with Cersei and her feminist ideology is that it seems to only extend to herself, and that she uses strict patriarchal methods to oppress other women. Like slut-shaming Margaery and trying to get her executed as an adulteress, for instance, while at the same time struggling herself with an arranged marriage she hated (and she "dealt" with it by undermining the entire structure to become an adulteress and a supplanter herself).

So yeah, Cersei's stance on herself and her issues is definitely a feminist one in that regard, but then on a macro scale she has a completely different view.

Great point. she also thinks other women is weak, but not herself :)

I think this is a good point in that she wants to be Tywin and rule in his fashion (i.e. "strong") and instead views other women sort of with Tywin's eyes as weak, tractable, usable in marriages etc. So yeah, Cersei struggles with oppression on a personal level, but she buys into the framework when it comes to the overall power structures. She sees herself as the unique snow flake, as it were. :)

[The guy from the Vale]

Why should she wish to destroy the very system that places her very nearly at the top of the tree?

Because she has seen what it does to those who aren't at the top of the tree? Seeing a problem and then ignoring it once it doesn't apply to you any longer (but still persists for everybody else) is the hallmark of hypocrisy.

I'm not saying hypocrisy is something I'd single Cersei out for; we're all hypocrites to some degree. We'd go mad otherwise. But her hypocrisy is so glaringly obvious that it really takes massive myopia for her not to notice it herself.

[juanml82]

I dunno. Cersei rules most of the Seven Kingdoms through the war. Lysa rules the Vale. Ned left Cat, not Robb, in charge when he marched south, at until Robb became of age. Then we have Bear Island and the Dorne.

Westeros is clearly a mysoginist society, but I don't buy the whole 'women have no power or agency' thing.

Edit: The Blackfish agrees with Cat that women, with the exception of Lysa, can rule as well as a man.

[Kittykatknits]

Jesus Lyanna, I am yet to recover from the latest Dany/Drogo thread. :(

That said, I think I can explain this anther way: Cersei is a feminist symbol the same way Tyrion is an icon for disabled folks' rights, although neither of them try and improve the lots of the minority they represent, they are poster-kids for the negative effects that sciety's discrimination has on them.

@Lyanna's awesome OP: :bowdown: :agree: :bowdown:

That said, it should be really clear that while Cersei's critique is spot on, she herself is a glaring hypocrite in this regard, particularly when trying to slut-shame (even slut-kill) Margaery, but also in her behaviour towards Sansa, Taena, and Falyse. Cersei's problem is that while she criticises the patriarchy, she doesn't want to remove it, but be the patriarchy herself.

Yes, I agree. I sometimes think the idea of whether Cersei is a feminist or a feminist character get conflated. Cersei is a feminist character for all the reasons outlined in LS's great OP. That does not make her a feminist though. She's a misogynist who would rather assume the role of the patriarch.

I'm under the impression that the ridiculous notion of feminism doesn't exist in ASOIAF...

Very classy there...

[danm_999]

My understanding of feminism is that at it's most basic level, it's an ideology that advocates equality for women.

My understanding of Cersei is that at her most basic level, she advocates her own advancement, but not advancement of her gender.

Can she be a feminist character then? I suppose, in that she has something to do with feminism, even if it's not a terribly positive message. Personally I'd view characters like Brienne and Arya as better feminist characters, as they have their own agency that doesn't involve selling out other members of their own gender.

[Ducks in a Field]

Westeros is clearly a mysoginist society, but I don't buy the whole 'women have no power or agency' thing.

Women do have power and agency in westerosi society, but it comes entirely from children and control of a household.

Cersei, as regent has power over her son, the king. Cat has power over Robb. This comes from the somewhat antiquated notion that women always know what is best for their children. Not only that, but they are not able to seek this power on there own - They have been given power through marrying a man, then bearing his children.

A woman's power and agency is granted by a household in westeros - She cannot choose to hold a keep in her own name, she cannot go out and win a knighthood and earn recognition through glory. The only way she can hold a keep in her own right is if all her brothers die - and even then in most cases suitors will come looking to snap those lands up for themselves.

Ultimately every option for power a woman has in Westeros, a man has as well, but a woman can not choose the options that a man can - This is what makes in an unequal society. Even though women might rise to the highest echelons of power, it is only on the terms of men.

To adress the Dornish situation - Things are more equal there, but there is still a slight slant toward inequality. Arrianne is worried that Doran intends to bypass her because she is a woman - Although we find out this is not the case, for her to have that worry suggests that the inequality must be there. Also whilst warrior women are more common in Dorne, they are still not the norm - Dornish women do not ride in tornies and gain glory in battle as is the westerosi ideal.