Cersei - feminist character, or not?

[Kittykatknits]

Why is it one or the other? Cersei's criticisms are completely divorced from her actions,or we should judge them that way.

I almost missed this since I wasn't quoted directly. I see what you are getting at. Perhaps a better way to say this:

Is Cersei's complaints valid or is she complaining because she doesn't like Robert? Is there truth here or just talk?

Does that make a bit more sense of what I'm getting at?

OK guys; that's fair.

Actually, I think you had a valid point. Despite this back in forth on innkeepers or shop keepers, a noble woman with the skills that would be available to her really does have only a few options. A career in a free company or as a hedge knight would imply knowledge as a fighter. Brienne is a rare exception, women would have no means to acquire this knowledge, as their family would not allow it. As Cersei pointed out, it is Jaime that got the sword - not her.

It's the same for women who might want to work as a baker, shopkeeper, or many other trade skills. They would lack the knowledge to be able to do so. Those are paths not realistically open to them.

Personally, Cersei is a good example of what happens when women are not treated equally. I consider Catelyn to be a maternal feminist. And in that way I think that Catelyn is more of a 'feminist' than Cersei is.

I have not heard this phrase before, would you care to explain further? I'm a huge fan of Catelyn so you got me curious.

I see it as the same as taking the black or death. Anyway, I was exaggerating, most lords wouldn't kill their daughters for refusing to marry, but they would be punished.

A choice likely coming from the fact that the man killed, raped, or committed some other crime. It's was repeatedly pointed out in the books that the NW is largely made up of those found in dungeons and criminals.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Actually, I think you had a valid point. Despite this back in forth on innkeepers or shop keepers, a noble woman with the skills that would be available to her really does have only a few options. A career in a free company or as a hedge knight would imply knowledge as a fighter. Brienne is a rare exception, women would have no means to acquire this knowledge, as their family would not allow it. As Cersei pointed out, it is Jaime that got the sword - not her.

It was clear that there were going to be less, but the quality of options is striking. Septon and Septa are roughly equivalent, although there has never been a High Septa. On the other hand the wall, and the silent sisters seem completely uneven. The wall is no picnick, but Silent Sisters are forced to take vows of silence and chastity, and their main function seems to be handling funeral rights, and other nasty dead stuff. Perhaps its personal bias but that seems like one of the shittiest options in Westeros.

[Arkantos]

A choice likely coming from the fact that the man killed, raped, or committed some other crime. It's was repeatedly pointed out in the books that the NW is largely made up of those found in dungeons and criminals.

Dareon was sent to the wall for having sex with Lord Rowan's daughter who pretended he was raping her, how many other men were falsely accused?

[Kittykatknits]

I don't think Olenna is the "head of the House" or even particularly empowered. Mace is still the one calling all the shots for the Tyrells - Olenna is just forced to clean up his mess.

I'd agree. From what I saw, she operates to protect her family - she doesn't set the agenda. It was quite clear that it was Mace who wanted Marg to be the queen and was going after all the positions on the small council. Olenna acted to give Marg a different husband, that's it. She is sometimes able to stop or deter him, such as with the idea to marry Cersei in to the Tyrells. But, she's not in charge.

<snip>

Seems like this discussion of choice in marriage is losing sight of the bigger picture. It's the entire institution of marriage in Westeros that is a problem here. The use of arranged marriage affirms the idea of woman as brood mare to advance family politics, form alliance, or create a peace. It's why Cersei's action to choose a different father is such a profound one. The male heir she produces is the way families both protect themselves and further their goals.

Beyond this, marriage as an institution grants a disporportionate amount of power to the man. It's predicated on him as Lord Husband, the head of the family and the source of her freedoms and her power. She leaves her family and friends behind to set up in a new household, a place that is alien and unfamiliar to her. She can not refuse him yet he has the choice to take lovers or visit whores as he needs. He can create bastards with no negative repercussions, she can not. For her, the marriage is permanent while he can cast her aside.

There is no balance here, it's not just a matter of how many other career options a man or woman may have.

And I know you knew all this already. :)

[A wilding]

Dareon was sent to the wall for having sex with Lord Rowan's daughter who pretended he was raping her, how many other men were falsely accused?

I think it is pretty certain that his crime was statutory rape, in that the daughter was not considered competent to give consent. If he had actually committed what we would consider rape, I imagine he would have ended up in a crow cage after being gelded.

That so, he knew the risk he was taking when he climbed in her window. He should have stuck to serving girls. His plaint about what she said to her father is just him being a sore loser - what did he expect her to say really?

All this is rather beside the point though, why would the fact that justice is very imperfect in Westeros alter that fact that the women generally have it worse than the men?