Arkantos Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Why would you want Cersei as a feminist symbol?To someone who doesn't believe in equality for women, she's a glaring example of why only men should rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 I dunno. Cersei rules most of the Seven Kingdoms through the war. Lysa rules the Vale. Ned left Cat, not Robb, in charge when he marched south, at until Robb became of age. Then we have Bear Island and the Dorne.Westeros is clearly a mysoginist society, but I don't buy the whole 'women have no power or agency' thing.Edit: The Blackfish agrees with Cat that women, with the exception of Lysa, can rule as well as a man.There are certainly women who buck the system in various ways, but they all "deal" with the consequences in various ways. The Mormont women state publicly that they marry bears, for instance, which is basically another way of saying "Mind your own business", meaning they at least are making a statement about it. Dorne is the one place which has female primogeniture, and even there, Arianne is worried about her father preferring Quentyn. I might also add Spotted Sylvia's fate here as an example of iffy things.Cat was certainly left in charge, but a. Robb was underage b. Cat was trained to rule from an early age as she was Hoster's heir for many years, hence she is very capable c. Ned is a "good guy" and the "good guys" of ASOIAF tend to be of a more feminist bent. See Jon Snow.Lysa got married off at age 16 after a forced abortion to a man old enough to be her grandfather and whom she eventually poisoned, while during her marriage she had an ongoing affair with Littlefinger. The Blackfish also stated he did not think Lysa was fit to rule. Hence Lysa is an example of what happens when women have no agency in marriage. She wanted to marry Littlefinger and carried his child, but was not allowed to. Instead, the child was forcibly aborted and Lysa married off against her will. She never reconciled with Hoster after it either, as we see in Cat's chapters. When Cat realises what had happened, she also understands why Lysa never wanted to hear anything from Hoster again, and Cat thinks the time for reconciliation is past.Why would you want Cersei as a feminist symbol?To someone who doesn't believe in equality for women, she's a glaring example of why only men should rule.I have no idea what you mean. Why is she a glaring example of why only men should rule? The reasons I laid out in the OP. She criticises the status quo and how the role as Queen is empty and a joke with no power associated with it. I'm not sure why that means only men should rule?Unless you mean that Cersei being an unpleasant and not very nice person are due to her being female, and not because that is her personality.Can she be a feminist character then? I suppose, in that she has something to do with feminism, even if it's not a terribly positive message. Personally I'd view characters like Brienne and Arya as better feminist characters, as they have their own agency that doesn't involve selling out other members of their own gender.But that is conflating a feminist critique with the characters being feminists themselves, within the story. None of the ASOIAF characters are full fledged, modern day femininist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leto Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Why should she wish to destroy the very system that places her very nearly at the top of the tree?For the reason of being a feminist, a reason which clearly isn't present in her :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Because she has seen what it does to those who aren't at the top of the tree? Seeing a problem and then ignoring it once it doesn't apply to you any longer (but still persists for everybody else) is the hallmark of hypocrisy.I'm not saying hypocrisy is something I'd single Cersei out for; we're all hypocrites to some degree. We'd go mad otherwise. But her hypocrisy is so glaringly obvious that it really takes massive myopia for her not to notice it herself.I don't think it would be glaringly obvious to a woman in Cersei's position (it may appear so to us, looking in). She, in common with the other points of view, believes it is entirely right and proper, that political power should be wielded exclusively by great aristocrats like herself. It would not occur to her that there was anything basically unjust about that, even if she felt she was treated unjustly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leviathan I Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Hmm, not sure what is "ridiculous" about equality between the sexes. Care to explain further?The idea that both sexes should by equal by itself is a completely reasonable idea that me and 99% of all civilised people agree with. But there are some serious issues that I have with feminists. They purport to be for gender equality yet focus solely on the issues of one gender and act like they are being oppressed by the patriarchy in every conceivable way. So I guess my main problem would be that it turns a perfectly reasonable idea that everyone agrees with and for the most part adheres to and turns it into an aggressive ideology that completely exaggerates the extent of male privilege. Feminists act like women are being horribly oppressed by the patriarchy and have a constant urge to remind everyone around them of their beliefs and how if you don't identify as a feminist you're some immoral bigot.This joke pretty much sums up my opinion on feminism: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? Two, one to change the light bulb and another to write a dissertation for her Women's Studies course about how light bulbs are a tool of the patriarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I have no idea what you mean. Why is she a glaring example of why only men should rule? The reasons I laid out in the OP. She criticises the status quo and how the role as Queen is empty and a joke with no power associated with it. I'm not sure why that means only men should rule?Unless you mean that Cersei being an unpleasant and not very nice person are due to her being female, and not because that is her personality.Because she's a terrible ruler... I'm not saying it's because she's female, I'm saying that, to someone who doesn't believe in gender equality, she'd be the perfect figurehead as to why it doesn't work."Look at what happened when a woman had power, the realm goes to shit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 The idea that both sexes should by equal by itself is a completely reasonable idea that me and 99% of all civilised people agree with. But there are some serious issues that I have with feminists. They purport to be for gender equality yet focus solely on the issues of one gender and act like they are being oppressed by the patriarchy in every conceivable way. So I guess my main problem would be that it turns a perfectly reasonable idea that everyone agrees with and for the most part adheres to and turns it into an aggressive ideology that completely exaggerates the extent of male privilege. Feminists act like women are being horribly oppressed by the patriarchy and have a constant urge to remind everyone around them of their beliefs and how if you don't identify as a feminist you're some immoral bigot.This joke pretty much sums up my opinion on feminism: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? Two, one to change the light bulb and another to write a dissertation for her Women's Studies course about how light bulbs are a tool of the patriarchy.This may be useful guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 The idea that both sexes should by equal by itself is a completely reasonable idea that me and 99% of all civilised people agree with. But there are some serious issues that I have with feminists. They purport to be for gender equality yet focus solely on the issues of one gender and act like they are being oppressed by the patriarchy in every conceivable way. So I guess my main problem would be that it turns a perfectly reasonable idea that everyone agrees with and for the most part adheres to and turns it into an aggressive ideology that completely exaggerates the extent of male privilege. Feminists act like women are being horribly oppressed by the patriarchy and have a constant urge to remind everyone around them of their beliefs and how if you don't identify as a feminist you're some immoral bigot.This joke pretty much sums up my opinion on feminism: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? Two, one to change the light bulb and another to write a dissertation for her Women's Studies course about how light bulbs are a tool of the patriarchy.Ah the Evil Feminist Strawwoman. Tell me, which feminists do you know who espouse these views? Not saying there are none, but I promise you, a majority of feminists are nothing at all like your Evil Feminist Strawwoman. :) Again, specific complaints about Feminists being horrible and evil should probably be taken to Gen Chat, where that sort of thing is sometimes discussed. Or to places like Feminism 101, which debunks the Straw feminist myth pretty thoroughly.For the reason of being a feminist, a reason which clearly isn't present in her :)Like democracy, it's not really available in Westeros or Essos, but I often think of Dany as a bit of a proto-feminist in that she's aware of structural issues against women, but cannot yet articulate what she wants to do about it, or exactly what she thinks is wrong. Sort of like her views on slavery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Personally, I don't see why being a feminist should even be a thing, it should be what you default to as a human.You should only have to point out if someone is misogynistic or w/e. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brienne Of Bombay Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I think Cersei would have been a textbook feminist had she not been as stupid as she is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I never considered Cersei a feminist symbol in any way whatsoever, in fact she makes many comments about the inferiority of women. I'm going to have to agree with the Asha mention. Asha is great. Having said that, I love Cersei as a character (I don't like her as a person because she's pretty abhorrent) but I think she's a great character. I suppose she is feminist in a way that she fights against the patriarchy in the world of Westeros, but she is not fighting against a patriarchy for the good of all women she is trying to do it solely and purely for herself and as I've mentioned she often makes comments about the inferiority of women.So, personally I never viewed her and will probably never view her as a feminist symbol. I view Asha as a much better symbol for feminism even though she herself isn't the perfect icon for feminism either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Mini Dragons Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 My understanding of feminism is that at it's most basic level, it's an ideology that advocates equality for women.My understanding of Cersei is that at her most basic level, she advocates her own advancement, but not advancement of her gender. :agree:Cersei is only a feminist for herself and only herself. She's a narcissist, but that's a whole other thread topic. I'm a self-proclaimed feminist and for me that means very simply: equality for women, but for ALL women. Cersei is only concerned with her own status and her own grabs for power. She is not concerned with moving the plight of women in Westeros forward, in a general sense. If she thought that way, then she should be fighting for Myrcella to be queen since she actually older than Tommen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducks in a Field Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 The idea that both sexes should by equal by itself is a completely reasonable idea that me and 99% of all civilised people agree with. But there are some serious issues that I have with feminists. They purport to be for gender equality yet focus solely on the issues of one gender and act like they are being oppressed by the patriarchy in every conceivable way. So I guess my main problem would be that it turns a perfectly reasonable idea that everyone agrees with and for the most part adheres to and turns it into an aggressive ideology that completely exaggerates the extent of male privilege. Feminists act like women are being horribly oppressed by the patriarchy and have a constant urge to remind everyone around them of their beliefs and how if you don't identify as a feminist you're some immoral bigot.This joke pretty much sums up my opinion on feminism: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? Two, one to change the light bulb and another to write a dissertation for her Women's Studies course about how light bulbs are a tool of the patriarchy.This is a fairly common critisism of feminism that comes from too much exposure to what I might awkwardly call the wrong kind of feminism.If someone is writing about how men have caused all the worlds problems and if women were in charge things would be better they are not a feminist, even though they might call themselves one.If someone writes about how men cause all women's problems then they might be a feminist - have a look at what they say.As someone who believes in equality for the sexes (I would say a feminist, but some woman take exception to me calling myself that) I would say that the patriachy is not a system put in place by men to favour men over women, but a sytem put in place by society that robbed women of their agency.Now, many people are trying to reclaim that agency and power, some by stripping men of their agency (The wrong way) some by showing that women can chose to excell in the same feilds men do (the right way).The idea that all feminists are lesbian trolls who seek to overthrow man is a myth perpetuated by the media, and dare I say it - The old mysogynists who want to keep woman in the kitchen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I used to say I was a staunch feminist (and I still am, really) but I think it's more accurate to call myself a staunch supporter of all human rights as a whole and a large part of that is gender issues and feminism and I have to say that those with the view that 'most' feminists are those die-hard crazy feminazi's (who I really can't be doing with) are in fact the minority of the movement and you're only specifically aware of those kinds of die-hard feminists because they are the most vocal, however most feminists (myself included) accept that patriarchal societies affect both men and women but the focus on women stems from the very real fact that women HAVE and in many ways still ARE deemed as inferior in many ways in today's modern society and this is an important issue to tackle. But as I've said; I'm a staunch supporter of all human rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 rd's subject.However, the woman who puts is as plain as it could be is Cersei. She tells Sansa straight out that being queen is being a pretty figurehead that should give birth to babies and wear pretty dresses. It's a facade, empty of real content. Hence what Cersei does here is critisicing the way things are, and how her role as a woman had a very real impact on her life. She compares herself to Jaime who was allowed to use a sword, and laments how different people treated her when she dressed up in boys' clothing.EDIT: apologising for poor spelling btw, my spell checker has decided not to cooperate.I greatly enjoyed your post, but I wonder if Cersei is being entirely truthful here. Certainly, Westeros is a mysoginistic society, but one would expect to see quite a lot of aristocratic women running estates, dispensing justice, collecting taxes, in the absence of their husbands in war, as prisoners being held for ransom, or as widows. Cersei has clearly been well-educated, given that she reads and writes easily, understands accounting, is familiar with history and geography etc. Robert presumably treated her with contempt, and having no interest in ruling himself, had no intention of delegating any functions to his wife, but I doubt if that's the typical lot of a queen or noblewoman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leto Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Like democracy, it's not really available in Westeros or Essos, but I often think of Dany as a bit of a proto-feminist in that she's aware of structural issues against women, but cannot yet articulate what she wants to do about it, or exactly what she thinks is wrong. Sort of like her views on slavery.I just have very little faith in people when it comes to inequality, and even less in the characters of this series :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanml82 Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Women do have power and agency in westerosi society, but it comes entirely from children and control of a household.Cersei, as regent has power over her son, the king. Cat has power over Robb. This comes from the somewhat antiquated notion that women always know what is best for their children. Not only that, but they are not able to seek this power on there own - They have been given power through marrying a man, then bearing his children.A woman's power and agency is granted by a household in westeros - She cannot choose to hold a keep in her own name, she cannot go out and win a knighthood and earn recognition through glory. The only way she can hold a keep in her own right is if all her brothers die - and even then in most cases suitors will come looking to snap those lands up for themselves.Ultimately every option for power a woman has in Westeros, a man has as well, but a woman can not choose the options that a man can - This is what makes in an unequal society. Even though women might rise to the highest echelons of power, it is only on the terms of men.To adress the Dornish situation - Things are more equal there, but there is still a slight slant toward inequality. Arrianne is worried that Doran intends to bypass her because she is a woman - Although we find out this is not the case, for her to have that worry suggests that the inequality must be there. Also whilst warrior women are more common in Dorne, they are still not the norm - Dornish women do not ride in tornies and gain glory in battle as is the westerosi ideal.But Robb and Joffrey's power also comes from someone else - their parents in this case. And, as men, they are also expected to go for an arranged marriage (did anyone ask Joffrey's opinion about marrying Sansa?). It's their relative power against their suitors that would let them choose, or not, someone they find attractive - being in love is the exception, not the rule.What women lack is the option of rising to power by themselves, which men have, in times of war, as a reward for their military services.There are certainly women who buck the system in various ways, but they all "deal" with the consequences in various ways. The Mormont women state publicly that they marry bears, for instance, which is basically another way of saying "Mind your own business", meaning they at least are making a statement about it. Dorne is the one place which has female primogeniture, and even there, Arianne is worried about her father preferring Quentyn. I might also add Spotted Sylvia's fate here as an example of iffy things.Cat was certainly left in charge, but a. Robb was underage b. Cat was trained to rule from an early age as she was Hoster's heir for many years, hence she is very capable c. Ned is a "good guy" and the "good guys" of ASOIAF tend to be of a more feminist bent. See Jon Snow.Lysa got married off at age 16 after a forced abortion to a man old enough to be her grandfather and whom she eventually poisoned, while during her marriage she had an ongoing affair with Littlefinger. The Blackfish also stated he did not think Lysa was fit to rule. Hence Lysa is an example of what happens when women have no agency in marriage. She wanted to marry Littlefinger and carried his child, but was not allowed to. Instead, the child was forcibly aborted and Lysa married off against her will. She never reconciled with Hoster after it either, as we see in Cat's chapters. When Cat realises what had happened, she also understands why Lysa never wanted to hear anything from Hoster again, and Cat thinks the time for reconciliation is past.I have no idea what you mean. Why is she a glaring example of why only men should rule? The reasons I laid out in the OP. She criticises the status quo and how the role as Queen is empty and a joke with no power associated with it. I'm not sure why that means only men should rule?Unless you mean that Cersei being an unpleasant and not very nice person are due to her being female, and not because that is her personality.But that is conflating a feminist critique with the characters being feminists themselves, within the story. None of the ASOIAF characters are full fledged, modern day femininist.I'd say Lysa is an example of people unfit to rule, her forced marriage non withstanding (sp?). She had to marry for political reasons in times of war, not unlike Robb or Joffrey. What they do about it makes the difference. Lysa got a lover, helped him into a position of power, and became an stupid paranoid. OTOH, you said yourself Cat was educated to rule and the Blackfish answer isn't that he thinks women are unfit for rule. They are unfit for military leadership, but that's due physical, economic and demographical issues.Modern feminism, OTOH, simply can not exist in a medieval society as Westeros because the economic base and the technology is completely different. It's a militaristic society in which women would be at a serious disadvantage against male soldiers due their differences in strenght. It has lousy higienic conditions and a poor medical system, so child mortality is huge and women are required to have as many children as they can. And, finally, after a war, it's a lot faster to repopulate the country if most of the dead are men instead of the relationship being equal. It also doesn't have a yet blooming mercantile sector/middle class, were women could operate as well as men in all activies which aren't strenght related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leviathan I Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Ah the Evil Feminist Strawwoman. Tell me, which feminists do you know who espouse these views? Not saying there are none, but I promise you, a majority of feminists are nothing at all like your Evil Feminist Strawwoman. :) Again, specific complaints about Feminists being horrible and evil should probably be taken to Gen Chat, where that sort of thing is sometimes discussed. Or to places like Feminism 101, which debunks the Straw feminist myth pretty thoroughly.Alright, well you asked me to defend my statement, obviously you're right this probably isn't a suitable place to continue this friendly discussion. I'll respond to you via PM but not for a while, I'm afraid. It's 1AM here, so I'll reply sometime tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Like democracy, it's not really available in Westeros or Essos, but I often think of Dany as a bit of a proto-feminist in that she's aware of structural issues against women, but cannot yet articulate what she wants to do about it, or exactly what she thinks is wrong. Sort of like her views on slavery.Yes, I can agree with this definitely. I didn't mention Dany in my initial post, but I should have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolex Baratheon Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Cersei is a half insane cruel *insert expletive here* type of woman. Hates her own brother for a silly reason and has sex with the other her whole life until eventually abandoning him when he starts disagreeing with her etc etc. I'd like to think feminists would choose a better representative than such a bad woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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