Failings of feminism - real or not?

[Hallyington]

Interesting read, Local library is ironically enough run by a feminist i believe.

I read leviathan I's posts and a few others, It was a good thread all in all.

[Sci-2]

I started listening to the video Hallyington linked. Curious, has anyone read this book mentioned -> Why Men Earn More by Warren Ferrell?

[Leviathan I]

Yes, good thread. Fun discussion, not too nasty etc. etc.

Maybe I even learnt a bit about feminism (:

[Larry of the Lawn]

I'm watching his wage gap video. The first 4 minutes of it are building a straw-man. His first mention of feminism in the video is an ad hominem (4:35). The entire thing is chock full of stereotypical generalizations like "women are more family oriented than men" "women, unlike men, don't want difficult stressful jobs, they want easy rewarding ones". The only source he cites is Warren Farrell (, and it's not even clear what information he's getting from this guy's books and what is simply his own opinion). His emphasis on how only men do dangerous jobs is laughable because all the jobs he lists as dangerous are jobs that have historically been non-receptive to female participation.

I work in construction and I can say that one of the reasons you don't see more women in it is from the blatant and shameless sexism present on most jobsites, and the 'friendly' sexual harassment a woman is likely to receive there.

If anything this guy's channel is a testimonial to the need for feminism in the present day - there are still ignorant people that are unwilling to critically examine their own privilege who not only are disinterested in the goals of feminism, but also actively oppose it. (Despite the fact that feminism is good for men too.)

edit: he also takes a shot at female police officers, claiming they don't have to make arrests - which is weird because I have been capably arrested by a female officer.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Feminism is too vague.

Is anybody who helped women get equality or other women's issues automatically a feminist?

Or is it only people who label themselves a feminist first, then go help with equal rights.

For example: I support equal rights for men and women but i would reject being called a feminist.

[sologdin]

if you support voting rights for women, then you are a doctrinaire first wave feminist.

if you support employment rights for women, then you are a dogmatic second wave feminist.

you are a feminist of these sorts even if you reject the label, primarily because the designations apply on the basis of objective criteria, rather than your subjective consent to don the label. doesn't that just burn?

of the mind that in certain ways men can be oppressed too

any examples of men oppressed on the basis of sex, rather than the more general point that men are oppressed too? (of course they are. duh. capitalist society. imperialism. &c.)

[MinDonner]

The "only men do dangerous jobs" is a very peculiar canard for so many reasons, including the ones larrytheimp points out. Firstly, CEO of a major corporation is not exactly high on the hazard scale, and same with a good many professions where women are underrepresented. Secondly, you'd think they'd be all in favour of sharing this danger with women by broadening the recruitment to both sexes, which is a thing that feminists are working to enable. I can only conclude that "some men do dangerous jobs" is just an way of saying "...therefore ALL men are deserving of higher salaries in general" rather than an actual counter to any specific part of feminism.

[Lyanna Stark]

I've just started reading Whipping Girl by Julia Serano, who is a transexual feminist, and is an examination of sexism and the scape goating of femininity, which I think is part of this discussion. I'm only at the introduction stage, but I have already seen that her ideas are quite similar to some I already had, and have brought up before in the Gender Wars threads.

I've seen this title recommended now at least three times, and I really want to read it. :)

Femininity being undervalued/devalued I think is definitely the truth, too.

The argument that I believe Julia Serano goes on to make from there is that while feminists have been relatively successful in empowering women, it has failed to empower femininity. Whether it is by a deliberate choice to throw femininity under the bus and embrace masculine behaviour as a means to gain accept, or just as an oversight in methodology, or even a deliberate choice that we can't empower femininity yet, that's a fight for a more equal time I still think that counts as a failure of feminism on some level.

Back when I "became" a feminist, I seem to remember there being a lot of disdain for the 70s style feminism of worshipping mother goddesses and the Feminine Essence, wearing only dresses and that sort of thing. It felt that due to distancing from this type of feminism (perceived or real) it instead swung heavily in the other direction, that a "real" feminist had to be able to emulate men, while at the same time being "feminine enough". Of course, that's probably not the real reason, but I remember a couple of articles I read back then which argued this, more or less.

Also, I just wanted to finally get my arse in gear and say I find reading about your experiences as a transgender woman immensely valuable and important. Thank you for sharing them. :)

[sologdin]

only men do dangerous jobs" is a very peculiar canard

it's an idiotic thesis. what's the percentage of males in sex work, for instance?

[Sci-2]

@Larrytheimp: Yeah, the problem with the video is he doesn't provide any real data -at best these are summaries, at worst conjecture that may have nothing to do with the book.

I looked up the title but didn't come across any evaluation of the data within it.

I'm curious as apparently Warren Farrell, according to Wikipedia, is seen as feminist and anti-feminist by different people.